Mary- other children

  • Thread starter Thread starter glow8worm
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Mickey:
Protestants are quite prepared to say “Mary, Mother of Jesus,” but balk at saying “Mary, Mother of God.” Why?

There is probably an element of cultural conditioning here. for it is a denial that Jesus is truly or fully God.

It was this sort of thinking that led to the formal definition of the title Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. Patriarch Nestorius had preached that Mary was not Mother of God, being only the mother of Jesus’s physical body, which was then indwelt by God the Word. This was condemned as Heresy, since the Gospels tell us that the Word did not unite with man, but was made man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.*" *(John 1.14). This is a crucial difference. Jesus was not two persons: the Son of God, and the Son of Mary, but one person, the Son of God and Mary. If this were not so, his death could not have saved us.
Nothing seperates Christians more than
  1. Purgatory/Indulgences
    2)Mary stuff
    3)Papal infallibility
or from Evangelical side
  1. Scripture only
  2. Faith only
Catholics have made Mary a point of contention(see papal infallibility and Assumption, Immaculate Conception). It has been a constant in your face we got you here type of attitude—Im being serious. Otherwise whuy the name CoRedemptrix you say you dont mean that mary is Co reedemer with jesus but only that she had to agree to Gods plan for our redemption.
That being said, Mary was the mother of Jesus but I cannot give her the title of mother of God. No it is not scriptural.
THE NATURE OF JESUS
  1. To be our Saviour, Jesus needed to be both fully God, and fully man, descended from Adam.
  2. God the Word has existed as spirit from the beginning of time.
  3. At the Incarnation, through the action of the Holy Spirit,
  4. This produced one person
  5. The Virgin Mary is therefore the Mother of ALL .
My only coment Ive already made. How can a preexistant transendant Being have a Mother?
Nestorius did not recant, and founded his own church - which is no longer with us. In effect, in saying that Mary was the Mother of Jesus, but not the Mother of God, he was denying the reality of the incarnation. Attempts to downgrade Mary seem to always lead to a downgrading of the full divinity of Jesus.
I fully exhort the divinity of Jesus
BUT DOESN’T CONCENTRATING ON THE VIRGIN MARY DISTRACT US FROM GOD AND FROM JESUS?

This is a common complaint of Protestants, but one I really fail to understand. Does admiring any part of God’s creation distract you from God? When you walk through a forest of tall, ancient trees and you admire their beauty, does it distract you from God? When you look at a sunset or a towering mountain, does that turn you away from God? Of course not. For most people such things draw them closer to God.
All those things can distract you from God. They do not have to.
However you have to admit that Catholics place Mary in more exulted position than any of those. They pray show us the blessed fruit of thy womb… over and over. Either the prayers arent answered or once Jesus is shown then one becones so condition to this prayer they dont stop to gaze ofn jesus but again petetion Mary. God says seek me with your whole heart and Ill be found.
Seek Him.
I live in Suburban Washington DC years ago I traveled to Emmitsburg Md to a church which had a woman who claimed to here from Mary. I got there hours ahead and it was standing room only. Folks came from miles around to here what mary might say.
God desires that we walk with Him as Noah did. If we do we can here from Him that is his promise.
We can here from God ourselves or we can be like lost sheep and stand in line for hours waiting on someone who claims to here from Mary.
 
40.png
TNT:
Before we go into your interpretaion of an unborn child being Elizabeth’s “ANY OTHER LORD” , which is bazaar in itself. BTW, Lk is Greek, never was Hebrew…You must present your Certificate of Authority of Interpretation that guarantess you are infallible in interpreting and are in fact superior to anyone who does not agree with you.
May we have it ASAP?
Until then, you are no more than "any other lord"
Just a simple question, did Elizabeth speak in greek or in hebrew?😛
 
40.png
Xavier:
Catholics have made Mary a point of contention(see papal infallibility and Assumption, Immaculate Conception). It has been a constant in your face we got you here type of attitude—Im being serious.
I have to disagree, that “Catholics have made Mary a point of contention.” From my understanding, even at the time of the ‘reformation’ Luther and others believed the same as Catholics did about Mary.

Frankly the only time I’ve ever seen anyone even get close to ‘in your face’ with Mary (and I see it as more defending our faith, than getting in your face), is when non-Catholics try to tell us we worship her, or something along that line.
 
40.png
MaggieOH:
Once again, you are imposing 20th century standards on an ancient people. In that society, matchmakers were used to find suitable partners in marriage.

If Mary made a vow that she would keep herself only for the Lord, which is a vow of a very high order, and Joseph, being the one chosen to be her husband, heard of it, but he did not repudiate it, that is he did not tell her that she was not allowed to remain a virgin upon hearing about the vow, cannot later repudiate or annul the vow.

Why marry? Because it was the law of Judah that a young woman old enough to have children must be married. On the day that Mary was betrothed to Joseph she became his wife in all ways except that they were not living in the same house.

Now if Joseph, knowing of the sacred vow taken by his bride to be, also had made a vow to the Lord, then he would not want to repudiate that vow on her behalf, but would perhaps insist upon joining with her in that vow of chastity.

How much more willing would Joseph be when he hears that his wife is expecting the Messiah to remain in that chaste condition for the sake of raising the Son of God who had been given to both himself and to Mary.

Marriage in Jerusalem at that time is not like marriage today. We can break off an engagement but in that time it could not be done. You have to think outside of the twentieth century to understand the nature of the commitment of Mary and Joseph to each other as well as to God. They were fully committed to God in their every day lives. The same is not true for us. We live in the world of the flesh, and we like what comes of the flesh.

Maggie
Jerome states that Joseph would not have dared to violate “a temple of God, a swelling place of the Holy Ghost, the Mother of his Lord.”[40] Ambrose says that “Joseph, a just man, would not have spread this folly that he had sexual relations with the Mother of the Lord.”[41] In the next chapter, he comments on the words of Ezechiel: “It will not be opened and it will be closed:”[42]
 
Jerome states that Joseph would not have dared to violate “a temple of God, a swelling place of the Holy Ghost, the Mother of his Lord.”[40] Ambrose says that “Joseph, a just man, would not have spread this folly that he had sexual relations with the Mother of the Lord.”[41] In the next chapter, he comments on the words of Ezechiel: “It will not be opened and it will be closed:”[42]

It will not be opened by him to whom she was espoused, it will not be permitted, in fact, that she through whom the Lord will pass be opened. And after Him (Christ), it will be closed, that is, Joseph will not open it.[43]

All this is just conjecture
 
40.png
Xavier:
Jerome states that Joseph would not have dared to violate “a temple of God, a swelling place of the Holy Ghost, the Mother of his Lord.”[40] Ambrose says that “Joseph, a just man, would not have spread this folly that he had sexual relations with the Mother of the Lord.”[41] In the next chapter, he comments on the words of Ezechiel: “It will not be opened and it will be closed:”[42]

It will not be opened by him to whom she was espoused, it will not be permitted, in fact, that she through whom the Lord will pass be opened. And after Him (Christ), it will be closed, that is, Joseph will not open it.[43]

All this is just conjecture
Precisely, it is conjecture to say that Mary had other children.

For your information, Jerome, who was a monk who lived in Jerusalem translated the Scriptures from the original languages into Latin. He was assisted by the Jewish rabbis in his work. He had access to their opinion. He knew and he understood the Jewish thought on something that would have been so sacred to the couple involved.

Jerome’s commentary is right on the mark here. He has taken the verses from Ezekiel that we have already cited and has explained why it is that Joseph would have had marital relations with his wife. Yes, I agree with Jerome that Joseph would not dare to have marital relations, to touch her womb, not because of superstition, but because of his own chaste holiness as a good and just Jew. He was a man who was brought up to know the Scripture, just as Mary was brought up to know the Scripture. They lived in an age when there was an anticipation that the Messiah would come very soon. Joseph knew the words of Ezekiel and he understood what it meant regarding the gate that God passed through remaining shut.

Joseph was told by the angel that Mary had the Son of God within her womb, therefore he knew the consequences of violating something that had been hallowed by the physical presence of God. Hence the warning that is given that the east gate (that is the gate through which God passed through is to remain shut so that **none will enter and none will pass through **(paraphrase Ezekiel 44:1) This verse is really very explicit here. It cannot be more explicit in its meaning and application to the Woman (the Virgin) who brought Jesus into the world. She belongs to God alone.

Maggie
 
40.png
Xavier:
Just a simple question, did Elizabeth speak in greek or in hebrew?😛
Is Lk inerrant in the Greek, or inerrant in the non-existent hebrew.?
If she spoke in the Jew tongue it would have been Aramaic.
Did Jesus say PETER, PETRA, PETROS, Or did He say CEPHAS, KEPHA In Matt 16:18?

**Where is your Certificate of Interpretation **?
Until then, you are no more than "any other lord"
 
40.png
Xavier:
That being said, Mary was the mother of Jesus but I cannot give her the title of mother of God. No it is not scriptural.
**You don’t have to, God already did…how presumptuous, really. As if Mary is dependent on your approval…I’m sure she waits breathlessly :nope:
**
My only coment Ive already made. How can a preexistant transendant Being have a Mother?
**Jesus was NOT preexistent, unless you are a Mormon!
**
Code:
**I fully exhort the divinity of Jesus..
Good, then Mary gave birth to a Divine called Jesus.
**How can a Divine Person die on a crucifix, or any other way ??

All those things can distract you from God. They do not have to…
You got that RIGHT!

…one becones so conditioned to this prayer they dont stop to gaze on jesus

Now you need a MIND READING CERTIFICATE

I live in Suburban Washington DC years ago I traveled to Emmitsburg Md… to a church which had a woman who claimed to here from Mary. I got there hours ahead and it was standing room only. Folks came from miles around to here what mary might say
**Well, you have listened to someone who has EXACTLY the same Certificates as you do…0.
**
**I could tell stories of chrismatic prot sects all day long…but I would never be so ignorant as to expect you to hold these people as receiving special revelations from God…so what’s YOUR point? NONE. Except anecdotal aspersions. You’ll have to do better if you desire an audience on this Forum. With this your asking for ridicule.

2 Certificates needed…0 produced.
You really are just “any other lord”

You have the same authority to interpret the US Constitution as you do our Scriptures…0
**
 
TNT said:
Is Lk inerrant in the Greek, or inerrant in the non-existent hebrew.?
If she spoke in the Jew tongue it would have been Aramaic.
Did Jesus say PETER, PETRA, PETROS, Or did He say CEPHAS, KEPHA In Matt 16:18?

**Where is your Certificate of Interpretation **?
Until then, you are no more than “any other lord”[/QUOT

**JESUS’ WORDS

Not surprisingly, the seven words of Jesus recorded in their original tongue, reflect these two aspects, namely
Code:
        (i)         their essential identity with known Hebrew; yet        

        (ii)        some slight Galilean regional differences*.
Ephphatha – Jesus’ command to the deaf mute to “be opened” (Mark 7:34) – is directly from the Biblical Hebrew phphatha, חתפ, meaning “open”, as found in the standard Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament,[47]. Thus even Bruce Metzger concedes that “‘ephphatha’ can be explained as either Hebrew or Aramaic”[48]. Isaac Rabinowitz is less ambivalent, declaring emphatically that “there are no valid philological grounds for affirming, and there is every valid reason to deny, that ephphatha can represent an Aramaic … form. The transliteration can, indeed, only represent the Hebrew niphal masculine singular imperative … Ephphatha is certainly Hebrew, not Aramaic”.[49]

Likewise, cumi, or cum, in Jesus’ command to the dead daughter of Jairus to “arise” (Mark 5:41). The word comes directly from the Old Testament Hebrew םוק, “cum”, meaning “arise, stand up, stand”, while to this day the modern Hebrew for “get up” is cum.[50] What more appropriate, in the house of a synagogue ruler so familiar with Hebrew, than such a rich Hebrew command: “arise” – not to his Sabbath congregation to rise from their seats, but to his very own daughter to get up from the dead!

Eloi, Eloi (“My God, My God”, Mark 15:34) is clearly related to the Hebrew word used at times for “my God” in the Psalms (cf. יחלא, “my God”, Ps. 18:28; 139:19; יחלא, “My God”, Mk. 15:34). Astonishingly – given that Eloi, Eloi has always been cited as proof of the Aramaic source of the words – we find that the Targum of Psalm 22:1(2) does not begin with “Eloi, Eloi” but “Eli, Eli”, as in the Hebrew.[51] In two ways “Eloi, Eloi” is different from the Aramaic – with “oi, oi” instead of “I, I” and the short “E, E” instead of the long “Ay, Ay” (as in “day”).[52]

Clearly, we must look elsewhere than to Aramaic for its pronunciation. The obvious explanation lies in the **distinctive Galilean accent **which we have noted. That is, in *Eloi, Eloi *we have the Galilean Jesus quoting Psalm 22:1(2) from the Hebrew Bible, carefully recorded with his distinctive pronunciation by Mark. With equal fidelity to what transpired, Matthew dispenses with the accent as such, but still records the same utterance straight from the Hebrew Bible. This alone can account for the seemingly contradictory facts that
 
TNT said:
**Where is your Certificate of Interpretation **?
Until then, you are no more than "any other lord"

What next do you want to burn my bible ?:banghead:
 
40.png
Xavier:
What next do you want to burn my bible ?:banghead:
Real mature response, oh by the way why did you pick a Saint name?God Bless
PS Is it the King James version?😃 😛
 
TNT said:
I could tell stories of chrismatic prot sects all day long…but I would never be so ignorant as to expect you to hold these people as receiving special revelations from God…so what’s YOUR point? NONE. Except anecdotal aspersions. You’ll have to do better if you desire an audience on this Forum. With this your asking for ridicule.

2 Certificates needed…0 produced.
You really are just "any other lord"

You have the same authority to interpret the US Constitution as you do our Scriptures…0



Why are you yelling?
I can hear quite well.

John 1 - In the begining was the Word. Jesus was pre existant.

So Jesus is God yet not divine—you better check your own teachings.

I related my story to try to reach some personal level, you seem to be mocking me, is that your intent?
 
40.png
Lisa4Catholics:
Real mature response, oh by the way why did you pick a Saint name?God Bless
PS Is it the King James version?😃 😛
Xavier is my hero of the reformation.
My two favorite are NKJ and Amplified but I do have an NIV and a NAB and Lamsa and a New Jerusalem and …
Do you still have me in your preconcieved box?
 
40.png
Xavier:
What next do you want to burn my bible ?:banghead:
**Old liberal trick…if you can’t answer the question, shoot at the questioner.

BTW: I have “Jesus Words” also… So I must have at least equal authority to INTERPRET THOSE WORDS???
One more time…ready…WHERE IS YOUR AUTHORITY TO *INTERPRET?

***Here, I’ll help you understand the question:
“My authority to INTERPRET THE WORDS in the scriptures comes from _________ who/which had the authority to give it to me”
There, just fill in the blank.
 
40.png
Xavier:
Xavier is my hero of the reformation.
True reform doesn’t divide it is a reform from within,maybe you need to look into St.Francis of Assissi.God Bless
 
40.png
Lisa4Catholics:
True reform doesn’t divide it is a reform from within,maybe you need to look into St.Francis of Assissi.God Bless
But when folks wont recieve then division results. Francis was for his day Luther for his. God bless
 
TNT said:
Old liberal trick…if you can’t answer the question, shoot at the questioner.

BTW: I have “Jesus Words” also… So I must have at least equal authority to INTERPRET THOSE WORDS???
One more time…ready…WHERE IS YOUR AUTHORITY TO INTERPRET?


******Here, I’ll help you understand the question:
"My authority to INTERPRET THE WORDS in the scriptures comes from _________ who/which had the authority to give it to me"
There, just fill in the blank.



Your not asking, your demanding.
 
40.png
Xavier:
But when folks wont recieve then division results. Francis was for his day Luther for his. God bless
Chaos and division is not fruits from God and it is contrary to what the Lord prayed for.Even Jesus taught to do what the authoritys’ said to do NOT the way they were acting.God Bless
 
40.png
Xavier:
But when folks wont recieve then division results. Francis was for his day Luther for his. God bless
When it is the authority that is put in a position to recieve the only reason possible for non acceptance of dissent would be that it was wrong.

This dynamic is a natural consequence of obedience to authority while there is disagreement. If the dissent is a correction of conscience the obedience of the dissenter will give the issue the credibility that comes from sincere motives. In other words a bond is formed from the obedience and minds open to all possibilities and the Church as a whole enjoys either a more correct conscience or a mistake overcome.

How much ya wanna bet Jesus did it a few times to Joseph and Mary.
 
40.png
Xavier:
Your not asking, your demanding.
? denotes a question (aka asking)
! denotes a declaration or urgent demand
**This size denotes a question one is avoiding

This size denotes a question one is repeatedly avoiding by diversionary comments…reserved usually to “teachers” who have given no evidence of authority to teach infallibly.**
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top