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Benadam
Guest
I agree there is a pattern of apostacy in the OT, but that reality can’t really authenticate the taking away of authority given by Christ Himself can it? Not to mention Christs promisis to the Church to preserve it. I would need something weilding authority as substantial as the authority the church had and it has to possess that authority at the time it was taken from the church in order to entertain the idea that authority given by Christ was taken away.
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reggie
Guest
Xavier,
The RCC has not apostasized, it was the those who broke from it who did. The doctrines of Assumption and Immaculate Conception were proclaimed in response to the errors of the prostestant churches. See, how easy it is to twist your misguided reference to the OT Israelites! Could it possibly be that the prophets sent in our times are calling you back to the church and you are not listening and following?
If Luther and other protestant founders were of God, then why is there not one protestant church teaching universal beliefs? Not one, NOT ONE protestant church teaches the same doctrine, even within their own denominations! Jesus is One Body; He founded one church, one faith, One Lord of all. There is only one Universal church that holds the same faith and doctrines throughout all of the world. That is the Roman Catholic Church.
Who has divided His Body? Who has separated themselves from His Church?
Perhaps, this very forum is God reaching out to you. Perhaps, we who hold and practice and defend the faith are the prophets of which you speak! You have trusted someone to teach you the Word, but whomever it is, they do not, in fact cannot, have the history or the theological depth of the RCC. It alone stands as the one church with an unbroken chain throughout the years since Jesus ascended into heaven. You say we are fallen away, I say that we are home in His Body. Can you prove otherwise? Of course not.
You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts do not rest until they rest in You.
St. Augustine said it best. I am at rest, are you?
The RCC has not apostasized, it was the those who broke from it who did. The doctrines of Assumption and Immaculate Conception were proclaimed in response to the errors of the prostestant churches. See, how easy it is to twist your misguided reference to the OT Israelites! Could it possibly be that the prophets sent in our times are calling you back to the church and you are not listening and following?
If Luther and other protestant founders were of God, then why is there not one protestant church teaching universal beliefs? Not one, NOT ONE protestant church teaches the same doctrine, even within their own denominations! Jesus is One Body; He founded one church, one faith, One Lord of all. There is only one Universal church that holds the same faith and doctrines throughout all of the world. That is the Roman Catholic Church.
Who has divided His Body? Who has separated themselves from His Church?
Perhaps, this very forum is God reaching out to you. Perhaps, we who hold and practice and defend the faith are the prophets of which you speak! You have trusted someone to teach you the Word, but whomever it is, they do not, in fact cannot, have the history or the theological depth of the RCC. It alone stands as the one church with an unbroken chain throughout the years since Jesus ascended into heaven. You say we are fallen away, I say that we are home in His Body. Can you prove otherwise? Of course not.
You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts do not rest until they rest in You.
St. Augustine said it best. I am at rest, are you?
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Church_Militant
Guest
No answer to the long list of Church Fathers… 
All I would add is this verse from the Bible:
Matthew 18:16
" And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand."
Pax vobiscum,
All I would add is this verse from the Bible:
Matthew 18:16
" And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand."
Pax vobiscum,
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oudave
Guest
Hi
This is an interesting responce, I would guess that when Maggie posted her responce that it was in tongue and cheek. Do you think that she was taking it too lightly?. I don’t think that prayers in the scriptures are meaningless. I have seen catholics pray the rosery and most acted like they couldnt wait to get done. This is why scripture warns against such things-
Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Heart broken repentance is what Jesus is looking for, we need to be angry at sin and hate it as much as Satin himself. If we are sorry on Sunday for something we did on Saturday but fully intend to do again on Monday then I don’t care how many written prayers wheather from scripture or the CCC we offer up to God, it will not matter to Him. He will not honor that. If a persom goes to confession every week for twenty years and says the same prayers, does that not constitute as being repetitive?
I did not say this to offend anyone but rather to point something out that I see wrong in the Catholic church.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Xavier
Guest
It doesnt get much clearer that that Dave. We are not called to point out others faults only to present the truth. if they are unwilling to accept then its on them.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Dave,
You have obviously never been there when I pray my Rosary, and in the churches I attend it’s anything BUT the way you describe. I would say that your experience is atypical.
Jesus condemned meaningless babble and repetition, which in my experience among non-Catholics is closer to that mark. One thing I love about Catholicism is the formality and awe that our prayers express. If some few were less devout or less fervent that does not invalidate the prayers.
Meditative prayer is a beautiful and enriching style that allows one to get very deeply into a prayerful attitude. The Rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet never fail to enrich my relationship with Jesus and I’ve had a great many answers to my prayers.
If you don’t understand it, or don’t like it, fine, but don’t knock it unless you’ve prayed it for a month or so.
Pax vobiscum,
You have obviously never been there when I pray my Rosary, and in the churches I attend it’s anything BUT the way you describe. I would say that your experience is atypical.
Jesus condemned meaningless babble and repetition, which in my experience among non-Catholics is closer to that mark. One thing I love about Catholicism is the formality and awe that our prayers express. If some few were less devout or less fervent that does not invalidate the prayers.
Meditative prayer is a beautiful and enriching style that allows one to get very deeply into a prayerful attitude. The Rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet never fail to enrich my relationship with Jesus and I’ve had a great many answers to my prayers.
If you don’t understand it, or don’t like it, fine, but don’t knock it unless you’ve prayed it for a month or so.
Pax vobiscum,
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sfp
Guest
You are clearly ignoring Jesus’s audience. He was speaking to a world of people immersed in fighting paganism. He is condemning worshipping pagan gods in the common way it was done at the time.
Open your minds for a second…
Matthew’s gospel is very clear on condemning repetitious prayer “AS THE HEATHENS” do. This is condemning the practice of the pagans which were very common at the time…
They would pray repetitious prayers hoping that the gods would hear them, then they would go on living however immoral they wanted (since the repetition was thought to “appease” the gods"). There was no connection between their prayers and actually living morally.
Jesus was not condemning ANY repetitious prayer. how do we know this…because read what he tells us to do TWO VERSES LATER…
He gives us the most perfect prayer…the Our Father, and tells us to “PRAY THIS WAY…” So, if repetitious liturgical prayer is being condemned, then why does Jesus then tell us to go praying using THAT prayer?
I will also say, that if any Catholics out there are praying Hail Mary’s and Our Fathers, and then thinking that this somehow “appeases” God, and you then have the right to go live however immorally you want, then you are doing exactly what Dave is accusing…but the CHURCH DOESN’T TEACH THAT, Dave.
Dave, how many times do you think is too much to tell God you love Him? Do you think that He will be ticked off if you repetitiously tell Jesus…
I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…
Is that condemned by Jesus? Do you REALLY think it is? If not, and I trust you agree it’s not, then how is this any different than good liturgical prayers with a good message and meaning? You see, we agree that private prayer is ALSO very important, however we can often be very selfish when we pray…it can turn into just constant “requests” from God without giving proper praise and thanks.
This is why we feel that the liturgical prayers, handed down for centuries, is so important, to. You can’t improve the words of great liturgical prayer.
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Church_Militant
Guest
BTW both of you are totally off topic (again!) as well as DEAD WRONG in your opinions. What you have said (aside from your self-righteous backslapping…) is nothing more than another example of your biased opinions and your personal interp of that passage in Matthew. Who says yours is the right way?
If you wanna talk about the rosary and repetitive prayer THEN OPEN ANOTHER THEAD ABOUT IT AND STOP HIGHJACKING THIS ONE!
If you wanna talk about the rosary and repetitive prayer THEN OPEN ANOTHER THEAD ABOUT IT AND STOP HIGHJACKING THIS ONE!
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MaggieOH
Guest
Two things here:
- Yes, I did give a tongue in cheek response. What you do not know is that a Protestant friend of mine does the same thing to me if I say something “naughty”. I am sure the person to whom I replied understood that I was being cheeky.
- Whilst you offend with your comments about prayers that come from Scripture, please remember that we can say the same about some of the repetitious “Christian” songs that do nothing more than glorify self instead of glorifying God.
How many sing about adoring God who is our Creator. For example:
O praise Him, O praise Him
Alleluia, Alleluia
Whilst I am not against modern Hymns and I love a lot of them, there are times I do wonder about the wording because of the emphasis on self. Even something like: “They’ll know we are Christians by our love”, can be taken the wrong way.
The vain and repetitious prayers that Jesus condemned have nothing to do with the rosary. You need to discover the background to see why Jesus said that. It might be quite illuminating.
Maggie
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MaggieOH
Guest
slandering the Mother of God is a more serious sin. It is a fault that is found in many Churches. Some need to clean up their act and discover Truth before they begin to cast stones.
Now lets get back to the topic and stop the hijacking.
Maggie
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KennySe
Guest
In the Bible, while Jesus is called son of Mary, no one else is called son of Mary.
In the Bible, while some are referred as brothers and sisters of Jesus, they are not referred to as sons and daughters of Mary.
Period.
In the Bible, while some are referred as brothers and sisters of Jesus, they are not referred to as sons and daughters of Mary.
Period.
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sfp
Guest
…which would have been the likely way to record a person’s name in scripture, by the way. Good point.
Hence the exact reason why we need more than just the scriptures to keep us from veering off from the true faith. It only makes sense that God would give us an earthly entity to guide us in our interpretation of His Word.
This topic of Mary’s perpetual virginity is a prime example of latecomers not understanding the context in which the information was recorded or written…there was NO NEED for anyone to record a statement such as “Mary had no other children,” because it wasn’t anything that was being disputed…at least not for another 1700 years. And the Bible does NOT say that Jesus had UTERINE brothers or sisters…this belief has been interpreted this way only in the last couple of hundred years due to our profane ignorance of the Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew languages.
YES, we agree that the scriptures are the inspired word of God, inerrant and necessary. But the Bible itself tells us that there are many things that we need to understand that weren’t written down. St. Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions handed down…whether written or spoken.
"Mary remained a virgin": Circa 14 B.C. to present
***“Mary had other children”: Circa 1700 A.D. to present *(not even the original “reformers” believed this!)
Now, who is it that is following “traditions of men?”
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MaggieOH
Guest
:bowdown:
That is right, the traditions of men that have their origin after the period 1700 A.D.
Maggie
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John1717
Guest
The logic is sound but you apparently can’t grasp it!
It has been stated that Mary is not the mother of a nature, but a person. True enough. But the instant you say that Mary is the mother of God, you violate that distinction; for then you are affirming that Mary is the mother of diety but not humanity. In other words, God is merely descriptive of one of Jesus’ natures. The person of Jesus isn’t merely God, any more than the person of Jesus is merely man. Put it another way, Mary gave birth to a person who is *both *God and man. She did not give birth to the pre-incarnate form of the *Logos. *It is proper to call Mary “the mother of Jesus,” but not “the mother of God.”
By calling Mary “the mother of God” and not “the mother of man” there is an implicit denial of the humanity of Christ; or a divinization of his humanity–both of which are heresies. In other words, it affirms that Mary gave birth to *one *nature–namely, deity–stripped of all true humanity. The framers of the Council of Chalcedon recognized this danger. They did use the term *Theotokos *(“God bearing one”), but that is as far as any reference to Mary goes. They did not use Cyril’s supplementation *meter theou, *literally “Mother of God,” hence confirming that Jesus is one person bearing two natures. The text of Chalcedon called Mary “God bearer,” but not without qualification. The text of the document states, “…as regards [Jesus’] manhood, begotten…of Mary the virgin, the Theotokos…,” hence being very careful not to ascribe birth to Christ’s deity. Paul took this same view in Romans 1:3 where he says of Jesus, “son of David, according to the flesh.” Therefore, Chalcedon simply reaffirmed what Scripture had already made clear.
Mary can be the mother of God no more than you can be the mother of God! :nope:
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John1717
Guest
Jesus is God,
Mary is the mother of Jesus,
Mary is the mother of God!
*
*God is a Trinity,
Mary is the mother of God,
Mary is the mother of the Trinity!
God the Father subsists within the Trinity,
Mary is the mother of the Trinity,
Mary is the mother of God the Father! *
Hmmm, "Does not compute."
*Mary is the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God! Jesus is one person with two natures, one human and one didvine. To say that Mary is the mother of God, denies the fact of Jesus’ humanity.
*
This demonstrates that your logic is flawed! :yup:
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John1717
Guest
Church Militant:
You seem to forget that I do not accept “the Church Fathers” as the authority! They were not infallible nor were they all in agreement.No answer to the long list of Church Fathers…
All I would add is this verse from the Bible:
Matthew 18:16
" And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand."
Pax vobiscum,
J
John1717
Guest
Church Militant:
I guess I’ll knock it. I have said many rosaries and I can tell you that it as described above, “meaningless babble and repetition.” Just how does this prayer to Mary glorify the Creator of the Universe???
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John1717
Guest
Got a little off topic I see!!! I guess it’s OK because it’s you!!!
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John1717
Guest
You’re off topic again Maggie!!!
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