Mary's place in the Catholic Church-Is it too high?

[dcdurel]

april_hosen:

Okay,
All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

The practice of prayer to the saints was received from the Apostles, and has always been retained and preserved in the Church Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. Since the apostles learned from God, then this practice is the word of God. In other words, God highly recommends that we pray to the angels and saints in heaven.

The Church teaches when we pray to the saints in heaven, we do so for two reasons.

To honor them.
To ask their intercession.
Since scripture is also the word of God, in this article we will show how scripture is in complete conformity with God’s teaching handed down in apostolic Tradition.

The bible tells of many instances where God requires intercessory prayers. In one incident the Jews in the desert complained against God so many times He finally sent serpents among the people, and many died from the snake bites. There were more than one million Israelites in the desert at this time. Just think, those one million must all have been praying directly to God to get rid of the serpents. But, even though one million people were praying to directly to God, He did not answer a single prayer. Then the bible says the people asked Moses to intercede for them.
------------ Numbers 21:7 ------------
7 And the people came to Moses, andsaid, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.”
Because Moses interceded for them, God answered his prayer and healed the people. Thus, prayers directly to God were not enough. God also wanted the people to use a holy and righteous intercessor.
In the next verses from the book of Job, we will see how God directly commands intercessory prayer.
Job 42:
7. After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”
Notice that God did not tell Eliphaz to pray directly to Him for forgiveness, but instead He said “My servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer”. Thus in this instance God required intercessory prayers. At the marriage at Cana Jesus changed water into wine for those at the wedding only because of the intercession of Mary. He certainly would not have done it for anyone else, because He said, “My hour has not yet come”. Thus we see the power of her intercession.
In James 5:16 the bible says: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. 17 Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”
James was writing about the time that there was no rain in Israel for three years. In Luke 4:26 Jesus referred to this and told how Elijah was sent only to a widow in Jarephath so she would not starve to death. For over 3 years the Israelites must have been praying day and night for rain, so they could avoid starvtion. Just think, millions and millions of people praying directly to God. He did not answer a single prayer. But, when Elijah interceeded for the people, then God sent rain.
There are many other instances recorded in scripture where God will not answer prayers except through righteous intercessors.
Thus, scripture illuminates the teaching of the Church that holy and righteous people have great power of intercession.
Now, since God loves to answer the prayers of intecessors who are holy and righteous, who is more holy and righteous than those in heaven. St. Paul write of those in heaven:
Heb 12:23 “and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”

Thus, those in heaven are “just men made perfect”.

 

[dcdurel]

Now, since scripture illuminates the Church teaching that God wants us to use holy and righteous intecessors, and that those in heaven are surrounding us and hear our prayers, it follows that those on earth should pray to them and ask their intercession.

Let us see if that was what the early Christians did.
---------- Hebrews 12:22-23-
“But you have come to Mount Zion…and to a judge who is God of all… and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.”
The only way we can come to “a just judge who is God of all” and “to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant” is through prayer.

Thus, we can see that the early New Testament Christians prayed to a judge who is God of all, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant. But, notice who else they had “come to” in those verses. “and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”

Thus, the Hebrews had not only come to Jesus, and God, in prayer but the angels in festal gathering (which is why we have images of angels in our churches) and “to the assembly of the first-born” and to “just men made perfect”.

Thus, the Hebrews were were praying, not only to a judge who is God of all, and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant, but to angels, and to “just men made perfect”. Because the God loves us to pray to holy and righteous men by asking their intercession and by honoring them.

 

[BlackKnight]

april_hosen:

CheesusPowerKid:

she lived a sinless existance following ceaselessly by His side. QUOTE]
Hey Britty,
Okay, where in the Bible does it suggest that she lived a sinless life? If anything it suggests she didnt. She said she needed Savior. People who are sinless dont need Saviors. Furthermore, if she was without sin she wouldnt need God. She would be her own God. But Jesus died for her too. SO she cant be sinless. I know this is a touchy topic. I really shouldnt be bringing this up considering I’m the only Protestant. But this doesnt make sense to me. I’m not trying to present myself as anti-Catholic, I’m just presenting my beliefs.

Hi April!
I fully understand what you are saying and I can offer you some good sources that might make ya think a bit and see some of where this comes from.

1st. There’s a whole bunch of VERY good tracts on this stuff Here , so check out the relevent ones.

2nd. Here is a very good thread by my buddy Church Militant where they really get into this belief and dig around in it, so see what you think, and maybe pose some of your questions about it there.

God bless you.

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

Another thing, let me post a reply from one of my old threads from Genesis315 (I hope they don’t mind). It helped me a lot when I was learning about Mary:

Here’s some biblical support for the Immaculate Conception:

One is Luke 1:28 where the angel addresses Mary, “Hail, full of grace!” Now, as we know, before we are baptized, we are born with original sin. Original sin means our soul is without grace. It is essentially dead. Mary was not baptized at this point. How could she have been full of grace if she was conceived with original sin?

Here’s some more complex evidence:

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” (Gen. 3:15). My namesake!!!

Let’s analyze this little prophetic verse. In this verse, God is speaking to the serpent, Satan. Everyone, including fundies and evangelicals will agree that “He will strike your head” refers to Jesus defeating Satan. Since Jesus is the woman’s offspring, that makes the woman Mary. Now God puts enmity between Jesus and Satan’s offspring. Now, since we know Jesus was conceived sinless and never sinned His whole life, we can say that this enmity is complete enmity. Complete emnity means Jesus was totally in opposition with evil and sin.

Now notice this enmity that God places between Jesus and evil is the same emnity that God has placed between the woman and Satan. Thus, it must also be complete enmity. Mary is also in total opposition to sin. Mary was conceived without original sin because God has put this complete emnity between her and sin. Thus, she also led a sinful life as well.

This is supported by the fact that Jesus often calls Mary “Woman.” See John 2:4 at the wedding feast at Cana. Also see when He was on the cross in John 19:26.

The wedding feast at Cana is also great Biblical support for Mary’s interceding on our behalf. Hope this helps!

The thread has some really good biblical support in it that would help you a lot. Here’s the link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=43560

I hope some of this helps…but remember, Jesus’ church was not ONLY built on a bible, the bible was not even around in the very beginning. Before it we followed the teachings of the Apostles and Holy Tradition, which we still follow now. The bible is only one piece the a greater puzzel that pull Christ’s church together, it should not be used as the sole rule of faith

 

[Ignatius]

april_hosen:

I do not deny Mary was a great tool in Gods plan,
But I beginning to believe the Catholic Church is falling into worshiping the creation not the Creator. I dont understand why you praise her so much. She gave birth to Christ, and mothered Him to the best of her ability. She didnt die for us or take upon our sin. She didnt rise from the dead. Why give her so much praise? I am not picking on the Catholic religion or anything. Just trying to understand is all.

April,

Do you have children? Can you imagine seeing your child so brutally beaten, reviled, and tortured to death in such a way as was the crucifixion? This took the fullness of Gods grace to endure. She took on that suffering so that her Son might bring salvation to the world. We should at the very least respect that.
Also, the commandment tells us honour your father and mother. If God is our father and Christ is our brother, than Mary is our mother and we owe her that honour. Do you know of any son who is not pleased with showing honour to his mother? Is not Jesus a perfect Son?

Yours in Christ.

 

[Vaughn7107]

Hey Guys! Uh…just a thought but…in John 16:25-27 isn’t it saying that we will ask in HIS name? It doesn’t mention intercession of the saints or Mary. He just says HIS name. Jesus is saying that we will ask and his name and that he won’t even have to ask the Father in our behalf because God loves us because we loved his Son, Jesus. So if Jesus doesn’t have to ask the father in our behalf why would we have to ask Mary or a saint to ask God on our behalf if Jesus doesn’t. Or why would we half to ask Mary or a saint to ask Jesus for us? If you are a Christian you have a relationship with Christ…typically in a relationship you need to be able to communicate directly in order for it to be a good relationship. On the flipside, if you had a friend that you never saw and in order to communicate with them you had a person who would deliver your messages to them orally…how strong would that relationship be and how long do you think it would hold up? Anyways…just a thought

Vaughn aka Ryan

 

[Mickey]

On my way:

When we pray to Mary we are asking for her help. Let me put it to you this way. If you were moving and knew a woman and knew that she had a Son that had a truck, but you did not know the son that well. Wouldn’t you ask the woman to see if she could talk to her Son and see if He could help you. It is the same thing that Catholics do with Mary.

I understand what you are saying here, but I don’t think that this is the best analogy. We **do **know the woman’s Son. We ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray with us and for us–just as we would ask a friend or a relative to pray with us or for us. Our Lady is alive in Christ, and when Jesus was on the cross, He declared her to be the mother of the whole human race–and so we pray with our mother–and we ask our mother to pray for us. This takes nothing away from her Son.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

april_hosen:

I promise I’m not looking for trouble! Just for answers.
I was surfing the web, and I ran across this website regarding Roman Catholicsm. I looked into it and one of the links were about Mary and her place in the Catholic Church. This site had a very compelling argument, leaning towards Mary being put extreamely high in the Catholic Church. Would any of you say that this is true? Is Mary put up to high in the Catholic Church?

Some of the language used for her is not exactly easy to reconcile with the NT - and devotion to her does seem strangely liable to run out of control. Let’s just say that calling her “saviouress”, & “co-head of the Church” (titles quoted approvingly in a recent essay supporting the (so-called) “Fifth Marian Dogma”) doesn’t seem clearly to belong to the sort of faith recorded in the NT.​

It is difficult to mention these things, because of the extreme polarisation between Catholics & Protestants - if a Protestant objects to “Catholic exaggerations”, this tends to make Catholics all the more determined to defend and justify the “exaggerations”. The danger of this is, that instead of the baby being thrown out with the bath-water (which is what Protestants do on occasion), Catholics can sometimes insist that Baby, bath-water, and the dirt in the bath-water, should all be kept; as though the scum in the bathwater were as valuable as the water, and should not be thrown out.

The Second Vatican Council said:

1. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

cin.org/v2church.html ##

 

[Vaughn7107]

Vaughn7107:

Hey Guys! Uh…just a thought but…in John 16:25-27 isn’t it saying that we will ask in HIS name? It doesn’t mention intercession of the saints or Mary. He just says HIS name. Jesus is saying that we will ask and his name and that he won’t even have to ask the Father in our behalf because God loves us because we loved his Son, Jesus. So if Jesus doesn’t have to ask the father in our behalf why would we have to ask Mary or a saint to ask God on our behalf if Jesus doesn’t. Or why would we half to ask Mary or a saint to ask Jesus for us? If you are a Christian you have a relationship with Christ…typically in a relationship you need to be able to communicate directly in order for it to be a good relationship. On the flipside, if you had a friend that you never saw and in order to communicate with them you had a person who would deliver your messages to them orally…how strong would that relationship be and how long do you think it would hold up? Anyways…just a thought

Vaughn aka Ryan

can someone please answer this or is the for another thread?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Vaughn7107,
This is indeed a topic for a seprate thread and a good one at that, since your question really is about the the Catholic teaching on the intercession of saints. I suggest that you open a thread on that topic with this post (Copy and paste) here in the Apologetics forum to allow Catholics to discuss this with you without getting off topic here.

Very good question!
Your servant in Christ,
Michael Francis

 

[barsapp]

Vaughn7107:

why would we half to ask Mary or a saint to ask Jesus for us?

May be this help you:

Leo XIII’s Octobri Mense, September 22, 1891: “The Eternal Son of God, about to take upon Him our nature for the saving and ennobling of man, and about to consummate thus a mystical union between Himself and all mankind, did not accomplish His design without adding there the free consent of the elect Mother, who represented in some sort all human kind, according to the illustrious and just opinion of St. Thomas, who says that the Annunciation was effected with the consent of the Virgin standing in the place of humanity.[5] With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.[6] Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.”

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

I suspect that Mary’s place in heaven and in God’s eyes are even higher than the Church places her. Jesus subject to the ten commandments, fulfills them perfectly. He will honor His mother to the greatest degree.

 

[BibleReader]

april_hosen:

I promise I’m not looking for trouble! Just for answers.
I was surfing the web, and I ran across this website regarding Roman Catholicsm. I looked into it and one of the links were about Mary and her place in the Catholic Church. This site had a very compelling argument, leaning towards Mary being put extreamely high in the Catholic Church. Would any of you say that this is true? Is Mary put up to high in the Catholic Church?

Mary’s elevation to her position of honor is foreshadowed in
Revelation 12, when it says that the Woman who is mother to the boy would fly to the special place prepared for her in the desert.

We, the Catholic Church, are the special place prepared for her in the desert.

 

[Malachi4U]

Blessed Mary is not too high in the Church at all. She has a place proper and deserving of the mother of God.

I suggest that the real problem is that too many people fail to see how much higher a place Jesus has in the Church. A myopic Protestant vission focuses on Blessed Mary’s role and place but fails to see how much greater a role God (Jesus) has.

 

[Genesis315]

Malachi4U:

I suggest that the real problem is that too many people fail to see how much higher a place Jesus has in the Church. A myopic Protestant vission focuses on Blessed Mary’s role and place but fails to see how much greater a role God (Jesus) has.

Nah, they see His role, they just don’t like it either. They don’t like our Mass (where Christ and His ultimate sacrafice become present), our Adoration of Him in the blessed Sacrament, our front and center life size cruficixes, our pictures of His Sacred Heart, etc.

 

[Genesis315]

BibleReader:

Mary’s elevation to her position of honor is foreshadowed in
Revelation 12, when it says that the Woman who is mother to the boy would fly to the special place prepared for her in the desert.

We, the Catholic Church, are the special place prepared for her in the desert.

Ooo, I never thought of it that way. That’s awesome!

 

[antiaphrodite]

BibleReader:

Mary’s elevation to her position of honor is foreshadowed in
Revelation 12, when it says that the Woman who is mother to the boy would fly to the special place prepared for her in the desert.

We, the Catholic Church, are the special place prepared for her in the desert.

:yup::clapping: :clapping:

 

[On_my_way]

Mickey:

I understand what you are saying here, but I don’t think that this is the best analogy. We **do **know the woman’s Son. We ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray with us and for us–just as we would ask a friend or a relative to pray with us or for us. Our Lady is alive in Christ, and when Jesus was on the cross, He declared her to be the mother of the whole human race–and so we pray with our mother–and we ask our mother to pray for us. This takes nothing away from her Son.

I understand that it was not the best analogy, but it is the easiest to someone who doesn’t understand.

 

[Mickey]

On my way:

I understand that it was not the best analogy, but it is the easiest to someone who doesn’t understand.

Agreed! :yup:

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

April,

Do you have children? Can you imagine seeing your child so brutally beaten, reviled, and tortured to death in such a way as was the crucifixion? This took the fullness of Gods grace to endure. She took on that suffering so that her Son might bring salvation to the world. We should at the very least respect that.
Also, the commandment tells us honour your father and mother. If God is our father and Christ is our brother, than Mary is our mother and we owe her that honour. Do you know of any son who is not pleased with showing honour to his mother? Is not Jesus a perfect Son?

Sadly, it looks like April Hosen is just another hit and run poster. No discussion with any of the posters here. If people feel that they have some valid point, they should enter into a discussion.