Mass, Mahony Style

[JKirkLVNV]

Links to decent modern sculptures:

This is in Sioux City, Iowa. There’s a 33 foot aluminum statue of Our Lord and a 30 foot one of the Blessed Mother. I’ve been and they were very nice (but really big):

sctrinityheights.org/tour.htm

And here’s a statue of Saint Francis at Mission Santa Barbara (they also have one of Saint Clare):

http://www.sbmission.org/i/statue_m.jpg

 

[stjosephtomasi]

It’s as if some of these people are hoping someone is going to mess up,

There are probably only a handful of people who look for priests to “mess up.”

There are millions, though, who suffer through banality in the liturgy, even though the Church teaches that they are entitled to having it celebrated as prescribed.

 

[Uxor]

Links to decent modern sculptures:

This is in Sioux City, Iowa. There’s a 33 foot aluminum statue of Our Lord and a 30 foot one of the Blessed Mother. I’ve been and they were very nice (but really big):

sctrinityheights.org/tour.htm

And here’s a statue of Saint Francis at Mission Santa Barbara (they also have one of Saint Clare):

Schlüsseldienst 365 service in der Nähe ➋➍ | 29€ Türöffnung zum Festpreis

I like the statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus We have a small one outside our Church.

 

[patrick457]

I think this one’s my favorite:
http://www.robertgraham-artist.com/images/civic_monuments/small/3ps_small.jpg

Nothing quite like going out for a nice drive and seeing a huge steaming pile in a pedestal.

“Yeah, go straight down this road, and hang a left at the doggy-doo. Can’t miss it.”

I’m amazed he could sculpt anything other than naked women. Seriously… It’s creepy… Almost every single sculpture…

Oh no…Not Our Lady of the Angles Cathedral…

Who is the picture supposed to be? Our Lady? St. Gabriel? St. Greter of the Race of the Arkonsocolotians? The gender of that picture is kinda ambiguous to me.

At least that Dung-looking statue could be a nice reminder for Ezekiel 4: 12-15.

12 And thou shalt eat it as barley bread baked under the ashes: and thou shalt cover it, in their sight, with the dung that cometh out of a man.
13 And the Lord said: So shall the children of Israel Beat their bread all filthy among the nations whither I will cast them out.
14 And I said: Ah, ah, ah, O Lord God, behold my soul hath not been defiled, and from my infancy even till now, I have not eaten any thing that died of itself, or was torn by beasts, and no unclean flesh hath entered into my mouth.
15 And he said to me: Behold I have given thee neat’s dung for man’s dung, and thou shalt make thy bread therewith.

While modern art can be good (like that St. Francis statue above), the example above shows they could also go horribly wrong if put in the wrong hands…

 

[Rykell]

Byzantine Catholic:

Originally Posted by John Higgins
As far as the liturgical dancers, the Mass was over.

I do not like the dancing but John is right. The “Recessional” is not part of the Mass. The Mass ends with “The Mass is over”. The procession out after the Mass is not technically part of the Mass.

It seems very unethical to post this on the Web, and the camera enthusiast had very little material to excite people with if all he could come up with was a recessional down the aisle! Interesting that it was cut short, for had it been a really hopped-up festive dance, his dream would have reached fulfillment.

If anyone is interested, the media has been targeting this Cardinal for quite some time, but when it came down to bearing witness, the accusers were no where to be found. Their joy was in the hype and promotion of slander.

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=103687

Cardinals’ Accusers Fail to Appear in Court
Mexico Archdiocese Calls Claims a Mere Media Campaign

MEXICO CITY, FEB. 27, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Accusers’ failure to appear in court in the case against Cardinals Norberto Rivera and Roger Mahony is another sign of the falsehood of the accusations, says the Mexican archdiocesan paper.

The archdiocesan paper stated that SNAP has no proof of its accusations, and spent six months organizing “a media campaign against Cardinal Rivera based on lies, contradictions and downright slander.”

Granted, there have been abuses in the past, but apparently the photographer did not find anything else to post but a rather graceful dancing exit down the aisle AFTER mass. My understanding was that this was a workshop that was presented at the Conference, so it seems perfectly natural to me to include the participants in a recession. My own parish on special occasions permits the K of C in full uniform to recess in procession when they have a special representation at mass. What’s the problem?

I agree, however, about the glass flagons, but I highly disagree that a liturgical conference is not permitted to offer the precious blood to all who are in attendance, particularly since the Church encourages reception under both species.

Two cents for a rather banal topic.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It seems very unethical to post this on the Web, and the camera enthusiast had very little material to excite people with if all he could come up with was a recessional down the aisle! Interesting that it was cut short, for had it been a really hopped-up festive dance, his dream would have reached fulfillment.

If anyone is interested, the media has been targeting this Cardinal for quite some time, but when it came down to bearing witness, the accusers were no where to be found. Their joy was in the hype and promotion of slander.

Granted, there have been abuses in the past, but apparently the photographer did not find anything else to post but a rather graceful dancing exit down the aisle AFTER mass. My understanding was that this was a workshop that was presented at the Conference, so it seems perfectly natural to me to include the participants in a recession. My own parish on special occasions permits the K of C in full uniform to recess in procession when they have a special representation at mass. What’s the problem?

I agree, however, about the glass flagons, but I highly disagree that a liturgical conference is not permitted to offer the precious blood to all who are in attendance, particularly since the Church encourages reception under both species.

Two cents for a rather banal topic.

Here’s the problem, though: Does anyone see the recessional as being so divorced FROM the Mass as to not be a PART of the Mass? I don’t think so. We could technically whirl like dervishes on our way out of the Mass since it wouldn’t be a PART of the Mass. It just plain looks like disobedience on the part of liturgists who rush to say,“But it isn’t PART of the Mass!”

As for the Most Precious Blood, which I receive from the Chalice every Sunday: yes, the Church encourages the reception of both, but also cautions against exposing that Sacred Species to occasions of, at best, accidental spillage, and, at worst, sacrilege, and one of those occasions is very large Masses. We COULD offer the Most Precious Blood from chalices at papal masses in Saint Peter’s Square, but would anyone really think it advisable?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

While modern art can be good (like that St. Francis statue above), the example above shows they could also go horribly wrong if put in the wrong hands…

Yes, with a view toward being fair, I keep giving modern artists and modern architects the benefit of the doubt and lots of second chances, but so far, the bad I see outweighs the good (which is very rare and even non-existent when it comes to the actual building of churches).

Are there examples of not-terribly hideous or actually appealing modern church buildings?

 

[Uxor]

QUOTE=Rykell;1985612]It seems very unethical to post this on the Web, and the camera enthusiast had very little material to excite people with if all he could come up with was a recessional down the aisle! Interesting that it was cut short, for had it been a really hopped-up festive dance, his dream would have reached fulfillment.

If anyone is interested, the media has been targeting this Cardinal for quite some time, but when it came down to bearing witness, the accusers were no where to be found. Their joy was in the hype and promotion of slander.

Granted, there have been abuses in the past, but apparently the photographer did not find anything else to post but a rather graceful dancing exit down the aisle AFTER mass. My understanding was that this was a workshop that was presented at the Conference, so it seems perfectly natural to me to include the participants in a recession. My own parish on special occasions permits the K of C in full uniform to recess in procession when they have a special representation at mass. What’s the problem?

I agree, however, about the glass flagons, but I highly disagree that a liturgical conference is not permitted to offer the precious blood to all who are in attendance, particularly since the Church encourages reception under both species.

Two cents for a rather banal topic.

Do you think this is a workshop too?

 

[Rykell]

JKirk:

Here’s the problem, though: Does anyone see the recessional as being so divorced FROM the Mass as to not be a PART of the Mass? I don’t think so. We could technically whirl like dervishes on our way out of the Mass since it wouldn’t be a PART of the Mass. It just plain looks like disobedience on the part of liturgists who rush to say,“But it isn’t PART of the Mass!”

Maybe, maybe not with respect to disobedience. We don’t have the inside track to anyone’s conscience. Is this really worth debating? especially since it is not a techinical abuse? I wondered why the OP did not give the link to You-Tube, rather than advertise her own personal blog in posting this scathing information.

As for the Most Precious Blood, which I receive from the Chalice every Sunday: yes, the Church encourages the reception of both, but also cautions against exposing that Sacred Species to occasions of, at best, accidental spillage, and, at worst, sacrilege, and one of those occasions is very large Masses. We COULD offer the Most Precious Blood from chalices at papal masses in Saint Peter’s Square, but would anyone really think it advisable?

You have a good point, John, but again … is this really abuse to offer the precious Blood in a Conference, simply because it is not done in St. Peter"s? It explains to me why so many flagons are being used, which may not be the case in an ordinary liturgy offered by the Cardinal. A liturgy of this size would require quite a large number of chalices in order to offer this to the faithful. I would probably question whether he had special permission for this liturgy ONLY, before publicly exposing him with a video. Obviously the photographer had an agenda and sat all through the liturgy looking for an opportunity.

If it were me, I would probably not opt to do offer both species, but I have the feeling this was carefully weighed before making the decision.

 

[BobP123]

If anyone is interested, the media has been targeting this Cardinal for quite some time, but when it came down to bearing witness, the accusers were no where to be found. Their joy was in the hype and promotion of slander.

That’s sort of jumping to conclusions, isn’t it? What if they “settled out of court,” if you know what I mean?

I’m not saying that there is no slander involved (I don’t know what their intention was) but something that needs to be proved as well. It is also slander to accuse someone of slander, too. Even if it’s true. What are the motives there? Perhaps an eye for an eye?

Everyone has a right to a good name, that is true; however, there are times when it may be necessary to expose someone who may cause damage. But never mistake suspicion with accusation.

 

[Rykell]

That’s sort of jumping to conclusions, isn’t it? What if they “settled out of court,” if you know what I mean?

Are you suggesting the Vatican would deliberately evade mention of a settlement? Hardly. Otherwise the article would not have read that the accusers failed to appear whatsoever. For a settlement to have occured, there would be no need to have a hearing and observe their failure to attend … think about it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Maybe, maybe not with respect to disobedience. We don’t have the inside track to anyone’s conscience. Is this really worth debating? especially since it is not a techinical abuse? I wondered why the OP did not give the link to You-Tube, rather than advertise her own personal blog in posting this scathing information.

"I have no window into any man’s soul." Yes, I see your point, but, with respect, your word “technical” seems to be what the question hinges on. If we keep seeking refuge in the word “technical,” doesn’t that pretty much give us the liberty to hive off and do what we want? And haven’t we, with holding hands and the orans position, for example? Technically, those aren’t really proscribed, are they (or at least, not in a way that has kept them from happening)? And if we did do that, all hive off and do what we wanted to do, the Mass would soon (as is the case in some places now) cease to look like the Mass. No, technically, this was the recessional AFTER Mass had ended, quite right. I wonder what other horrors can be devised for those minutes right up until the priest says, “In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” and immediately after he has said, “The Mass is ended, go in peace?” Because if we take refuge in “technical,” you can bet that there are liturgists who are dying to fill the time!

You have a good point, John, but again … is this really abuse to offer the precious Blood in a Conference, simply because it is not done in St. Peter"s? It explains to me why so many flagons are being used, which may not be the case in an ordinary liturgy offered by the Cardinal. A liturgy of this size would require quite a large number of chalices in order to offer this to the faithful. I would probably question whether he had special permission for this liturgy ONLY, before publicly exposing him with a video. Obviously the photographer had an agenda and sat all through the liturgy looking for an opportunity.

If it were me, I would probably not opt to do offer both species, but I have the feeling this was carefully weighed before making the decision.

Well, I rather tend to think the word “abuse” may well be overused in these fora. In this instance, I guess I would say that I question the prudential judgment that permitted a wholesale reception from the chalice, esp. in light of the very clear directive from the Holy See NOT to consecrate the Most Precious Blood in a flagon, which IS an abuse itself. His Emminence could have had a (large) number of chalices on the altar, which is the way it’s supposed to be done, as per the Holy See. Even then, I don’t think it’s prudential in such a crowd to expose the Most Precious Blood to such a much more pronounced chance of spillage, which being an accident, could hardly be called an abuse (which seems to have bad intent inherent in it).

 

[SLCFranciscan]

I am a traditional Catholic who longs for the day when the SSPX and Rome reconcile so I can get involved in the SSPX. To do so now would be an act of disobedience, which I will not commit. I must confess myself of having in the past been critical of Cardinal Mahony for many reasons; tonight I prayed a rosary for his intention. I am going to in the future pray for him and not criticize him.

 

[Rykell]

I can agree, John, up to the point that I do not know the latitudes permitted in a liturgy for special occasions such as this. The R.S. does caution about consecrating too much wine when there is a large congregation, but I can understand that with so many of the faithful being present, the sacred species would have no difficulty in being consumed. I would suspect there were a large number of EHMC’s that would take care of this potential difficulty.

[102.] The chalice should not be ministered to lay members of Christ’s faithful where there is such a large number of communicants that it is difficult to gauge the amount of wine for the Eucharist and there is a danger that “more than a reasonable quantity of the Blood of Christ remain to be consumed at the end of the celebration”.

The other possibility concerning the chalices is addressed below in R.S., but since the altar was make-shift and very small, and the availability of numerous small chalices would be very difficult to obtain, I do not see that this would be a better solution, when one considers that many small ones could be bumped and spilled much more easily.

[105.] If one chalice is not sufficient for Communion to be distributed under both kinds to the Priest concelebrants or Christ’s faithful, there is no reason why the Priest celebrant should not use several chalices. For it is to be remembered that all Priests in celebrating Holy Mass are bound to receive Communion under both kinds. It is praiseworthy, by reason of the sign value, to use a main chalice of larger dimensions, together with smaller chalices.

I am no expert on liturgy, that’s for sure. But one thing I do think was not appropriate is portraying a video where there is absolutely no liturgical dancing within the confines of liturgy, and alleging that it occurred, based on a brief recessional down the aisle. The people were modestly dressed, and tastefully exited with only a couple seconds that could be assumed as dance. Had there been more of it, I’m sure the videographer would have loved to continue filming, but it was cut short. Time it, and note it in slow motion. It is a gross exaggeration.

I take seriously the warning in Proverbs 24:17, “Rejoice not when your enemy falls, and when he stumbles, let not your heart exult, lest the Lord see it, be displeased with you, and withdraw his wrath from your enemy.”

It is my feeling that the videographer had a wrongful motive of exultation as he sat there with his camera looking for excuses to condemn the Cardinal.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Will the “anti-Tridentiners” please stand up? Really, are there any here?

You’re right, nobody is against the Tridentine Mass.

There are also no heretics, schismatics, or apostates.

Yup, everything is beautiful.

 

[bear06]

You’re right, nobody is against the Tridentine Mass.

There are also no heretics, schismatics, or apostates.

Yup, everything is beautiful.

So, basically you don’t have any proof that anyone complaining here about the posting of abusive pictures is anti-Tridentine. You just think that this must prove that they are anti-Tridentine.

 

[Catholic29]

Do you think this is a workshop too?

http://bp0.blogger.com/_pMyWJ--g7Oc/RfHxdlX3M-I/AAAAAAAAArI/xT9hF5G3Ddc/s400/OurFather3.jpg

Who knows, maybe a workshop in modeling shower curtains for the congregants.

Weird stuff sure happens at Mass these days to put it mildly…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You’re right, nobody is against the Tridentine Mass.

There are also no heretics, schismatics, or apostates.

Yup, everything is beautiful.

Bear used the word “here,” meaning “taking part in this thread.” And as far as we know, there are no heretics, schismatics, or apostates HERE.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Who knows, maybe a workshop in modeling shower curtains for the congregants.

Weird stuff sure happens at Mass these days to put it mildly…

Maybe it’s a Halloween Mass and they are dressed as ghosts.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Who knows, maybe a workshop in modeling shower curtains for the congregants.

Weird stuff sure happens at Mass these days to put it mildly…

Are those nuns? Do they have on veils? Why would a nun that bothered to wear a veil do THIS?