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Beryllos
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and this post appearing later in the thread:
Shining a light on truth vs. comforting the grieving? Funeral homily in cases of suicide Apologetics
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Jen95
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That’s interesting. Priests that I have heard talking about funerals emphasize that it is an opportunity for people to pray for the soul of the deceased. Don Ruggero feels differently I guess.
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EnglishTeacher
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The priest who wrote under the username Don Ruggero tended to be . . . rather disdainful of American Catholicism from what I remember, so I don’t know that I would take his opinion to be representative of priests in general. (I do not intend any disrespect toward him, but that was always my impression.) But he was an experienced priest with many years of ministry, so of course his opinion is worth considering, too.
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Frankie65
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I’ll stick with Fr Lacuesta. Every single time
I bet he’s a much younger guy as well. Younger priests tend to be very traditional and not afraid to shy away from the issues which risk the worst fate that could befall a soul
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Frankie65
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When I know my time is near I’ll ask specifically no eulogy or anything of a what a great comedian/worker/person he/she was type of thing etc etc
All I want is pity and mourning for my soul that hopefully is temporal suffering in purgatory and enough love to have a Mass or two said for me
All I want is pity and mourning for my soul that hopefully is temporal suffering in purgatory and enough love to have a Mass or two said for me
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Beryllos
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I felt the same way at first. I respect your opinion. Just know that there is another respected and traditional position on funeral homilies.
Let’s not start “My priest is better than your priest.”
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Beryllos
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True, we should pray. In humility, though, we recognize that our prayers are not what saves. It is Jesus who saves. Here is a nice article by Father Mike Schmitz which emphasizes God’s mercy, while acknowledging your excellent point:
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Beryllos
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The Church advises against eulogies, but they have a tendency to pop up at funerals anyway.
Be that as it may, the funeral is about you personally. It’s not about deceased persons in general, or God’s mercy to all mankind. We like to remind people that “It’s not about you,” but in fact the funeral is about you: Praying for you, commending you to God’s endless mercy, and perhaps remembering you.
Now, one of the more serious faults of the homily mentioned in the OP is that it dwells on the person’s death by suicide. It did not regard him as a whole person with a whole life, loved by and giving love to those around him, but as a pitiful victim who died alone in despair. He is not just a victim, but a man created and loved by God. We fail in charity if our remembrance of him, prayers for him, and commendation of him to God all revolve around his last moments on earth.
Come to think of it, I wrote something like that in last year’s thread:
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BartholomewB
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That’s not how I remember @Don_Ruggero’s comments at all. Rather the other way around: from time to time, when it was appropriate, he would gently point out to an American poster that they were being disdainful toward some aspect of Catholicism in other countries.
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JanR
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While the priest never came out and used those words precisely in the homily, apparently there were other things he said to the family outside of the homily that caused them to believe that was his sentiment.
According to the parents, he wondered if the son had repented enough to get into heaven. He must have said something to that effect, if not in his homily, then elsewhere during, before or after the service. The implication was that their son might be blocked from heaven because he committed suicide.
It was noted by some in the article that he even seemed to have a smirk on his face.
The family was there throughout the entire service. They must have heard some things that weren’t said in the actual homily. While speaking the truth is a priest’s obligation to God, being unkind isn’t.
I have read the homily. And while the priest does assure us of God’s mercy and that suicide can be forgiven, there were things he said, and the way in which he said them, that simply weren’t necessary to say in that way, at that moment.
“Having said that, I think that we must not call what is bad good, what is wrong right.”
Did anyone there say that suicide is “good”, or that it is “right”? I don’t think anyone thought there was any good in suicide. Nobody, from what I’ve read, was calling bad good, or wrong right.
“Because we are Christians, we must say what we know is the truth – that taking your own life is against God, who made us and against everyone who loves us. Our lives are not our own. They are not ours to do with as we please. God gave us life, and we are to be good stewards of that gift for as long as God permits.”
Was there any intention by this boy to deliberately sin against God? I don’t think so. People who are severely depressed – and often keep it to themselves because of society’s stigma – aren’t thinking in terms of offending God. They often try to reach out to God, and when help doesn’t come quickly enough, they feel utterly, totally and irreparably abandoned.
Depression that severe is an abyss – a bottomless pit. People who are that deeply and severely depressed are beyond desperation. They are feeling totally hopeless and powerless against it. That kind of depression can be all-consuming, and without help, it does devour the person.
“The finality of suicide makes this all the worse. You cannot make things right again. Neither can (REDACTED). And this is much of the pain of it all. Things are left unresolved, even if it felt to (REDACTED) like this was the only way to resolve things.”
For crying out loud, everyone there KNEW that! The finality of any death, by any cause, leaves things unresolved. There is always unfinished business, and second guessing, whenever anyone dies.
It was also inappropriate, and actually wrong, if he had reneged on any prior agreements he had made with the family. He should have kept his word, or not agreed to anything to begin with.
I may have been too harsh on that priest. I admit it. My bad!
According to the parents, he wondered if the son had repented enough to get into heaven. He must have said something to that effect, if not in his homily, then elsewhere during, before or after the service. The implication was that their son might be blocked from heaven because he committed suicide.
It was noted by some in the article that he even seemed to have a smirk on his face.
The family was there throughout the entire service. They must have heard some things that weren’t said in the actual homily. While speaking the truth is a priest’s obligation to God, being unkind isn’t.
I have read the homily. And while the priest does assure us of God’s mercy and that suicide can be forgiven, there were things he said, and the way in which he said them, that simply weren’t necessary to say in that way, at that moment.
“Having said that, I think that we must not call what is bad good, what is wrong right.”
Did anyone there say that suicide is “good”, or that it is “right”? I don’t think anyone thought there was any good in suicide. Nobody, from what I’ve read, was calling bad good, or wrong right.
“Because we are Christians, we must say what we know is the truth – that taking your own life is against God, who made us and against everyone who loves us. Our lives are not our own. They are not ours to do with as we please. God gave us life, and we are to be good stewards of that gift for as long as God permits.”
Was there any intention by this boy to deliberately sin against God? I don’t think so. People who are severely depressed – and often keep it to themselves because of society’s stigma – aren’t thinking in terms of offending God. They often try to reach out to God, and when help doesn’t come quickly enough, they feel utterly, totally and irreparably abandoned.
Depression that severe is an abyss – a bottomless pit. People who are that deeply and severely depressed are beyond desperation. They are feeling totally hopeless and powerless against it. That kind of depression can be all-consuming, and without help, it does devour the person.
“The finality of suicide makes this all the worse. You cannot make things right again. Neither can (REDACTED). And this is much of the pain of it all. Things are left unresolved, even if it felt to (REDACTED) like this was the only way to resolve things.”
For crying out loud, everyone there KNEW that! The finality of any death, by any cause, leaves things unresolved. There is always unfinished business, and second guessing, whenever anyone dies.
It was also inappropriate, and actually wrong, if he had reneged on any prior agreements he had made with the family. He should have kept his word, or not agreed to anything to begin with.
I may have been too harsh on that priest. I admit it. My bad!
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pnewton
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Younger priests also tend to lack experience, hence them being younger. Wisdom may not come with age, but it seldom comes without it. May God bless this priest, and all our younger priests who come into their ministry with enthusiasm and courage. That does not make them suited to every task though. I do not doubt this experience will make this priest more than anything that could be taught in seminary. I know I sure can’t sit in judgement over him.
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BornInMarch
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I was going off the article in the first post.
Article:
The article itself cited a response from the Archdiocese of Detroit which stated that the offending priest was banned from giving homilies in funerals and that his other homilies will henceforth be reviewed by a mentor-priest.
Given the official response, and the pending lawsuit, I somehow don’t think the priest’s sermon was an innocent one.
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OKComputer
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Right. The diocese itself has a problem with it, so I think it must have been serious.
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Annie
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Now this is a far-out thought…
A young man kills himself. Do young people go to the funeral? Quite possibly.
Haven’t we all heard of clusters of imitative suicides? Maybe this type of homily is precisely what young people might need to hear: suicide is so not-ok, so not-cool… it is a sin against God [of which many may have diminished or no culpability]; it is devastating to those who are left behind; and it is bottomlessly permanent.
And yet… there is God, who has mercy for the young man for whom we pray, and who has given each of is a life that should have meaning
A young man kills himself. Do young people go to the funeral? Quite possibly.
Haven’t we all heard of clusters of imitative suicides? Maybe this type of homily is precisely what young people might need to hear: suicide is so not-ok, so not-cool… it is a sin against God [of which many may have diminished or no culpability]; it is devastating to those who are left behind; and it is bottomlessly permanent.
And yet… there is God, who has mercy for the young man for whom we pray, and who has given each of is a life that should have meaning
And how to handle such a devastating loss?
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Annie
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Considering that another diocese transferred a priest out of the country for refusing the Eucharist to a woman who told him before the Mass (funeral Mass for her mother) that she was a practicing lesbian, no, the diocese’s taking action does not necessarily indicate that it was serious.
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FossilResin
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You’re right: eulogies aren’t a Catholic thing - they’re a Human thing. Big news.
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CTBcin
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Eulogies, while not outright banned practically speaking, are also not proper to the funeral Mass. In fact, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal states that while there should be a short homily, there should be no eulogy. (Of course, few priests will object over the wishes of a grieving family, for better or for worse).
The funeral Mass isn’t the proper time for sentimental commemorations about a person’s life. That’s not the point of the Mass. The Mass is more about praying for the soul of the one who has died and give hope for the resurrection. I think the idea that we need a eulogy during Mass is based on a Protestant/ secular mentality of the funeral as a “celebration/commemoration of life,” which is what you end up with when you take purgatory and prayer for the dead out of the equation. It’s this false idea of funerals that has entered into popular culture, as well as Catholic culture.
There are other places a eulogy may be better suited, to if a family wants one; for example, at the graveside before burial.
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otjm
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I guess I would have to ask if you have ever arranged any funerals. It is not in the least uncommon for the priest to speak with the family concerning the deceased - and the family to speak with the priest concerning the same. They have may have wanted specifics noted, and that ultimately would be up to the priest as to what and how to weave into his homily.
we are getting this story second or third hand - but stating “telling the priest what to say” is a bit aggressive. I would suspect that they gave details they wanted the priest to say - and that is a bit different than telling him “what to say” as if they were dictating.
we are getting this story second or third hand - but stating “telling the priest what to say” is a bit aggressive. I would suspect that they gave details they wanted the priest to say - and that is a bit different than telling him “what to say” as if they were dictating.
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otjm
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It is fairly apparent that a number of people in this thread have not lost someone close to them in a tragedy - be it an accident, murder or suicide.
The Mass is said for the deceased. However, it is the people who are grieving, for which the Church provides compassion. And it is until, God forbid, we experience that profoundly deep and terrifying grief, until our own personal world has been turned inside out, that we can truly understand how others in that same situation are feeling.
The funeral is not the place to take on the nuanced position which the Church has concerning suicide; that is fine for another time and another Mass where the raw emotions are not present.
We seem to forget the story of Lazarus, and how as He arrived there Christ wept. If Christ had that compassion at a death of a close friend. a death which the Gospel does not indicate was sudden as the death of this young man, then should we not expect some minimal compassion from the priest at this funeral? I doubt the reaction of the bishop was driven by “fear of a lawsuit”; it sound far more like they responded that the priest failed at even a minimal amount of compassion.
And do we not need to find some compassion for the family and their loss of a son?
Replace the suicide with a drug overdose; or a teenager drinking and driving (and dying); or some other reckless behavior resulting in death. Each of these, too, could be cause of loss of eternal life. Is that what parents, caught up in the immediacy of grief need to hear?
I make no suggestion whatsoever that I support their lawsuit.
But if anyone thinks I am off the mark, I would invite them to speak about the matter of compassion at a funeral (i.e. this matter) with their pastor. He may not be as direct as I am, but i strongly suspect he would agree that what is needed most at the funeral is compassion for the parents and family members.
Words like “dictate” and the implication they were hiding the cause of death are unnecessary in this thread. Unless and until one has been in the black hole of grief, it is near impossible to understand how hard it may be to utter a word like suicide.
Compassion does not mean that we turn the child into a newly minted saint. It means that we feel, at least a bit, what they others are feeling, that we are sensitive to those feelings.
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Annie
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I once made a similar comment to someone (on a different topic) and was beyond embarrassed to find that I had gone too far.
You do not know us, nor do you know what we have experienced. I have experienced all three.
A Mass for someone who has died has a certain purpose. Other parts of the formalities surrounding death have other purposes more in line with comforting the bereaved.
I have actually heard a priest suggest someone who had recently died was in Heaven enjoying a good game of golf. When priests say things like this, who will be taught or reminded of the possibility or even likelihood of Purgatory?
Being artificially jollified during the funeral Mass gets us halfway through the wake before we leave the church. This is not what the Mass is for.
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