Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[mfbukowski]

Hi web2009,

An explanation I really like is found in a book called “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed. If you were to ask each Person “Who are you?”, each would respond “Father” Son" or “Holy Spirit”. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and so on. So there are three Persons. Now, if you were to ask each Person “What are you?”, each Person would answer “God”.

Good explanation. And you would have 3 answers wouldn’t you, from three different persons each calling himself “God”.

I defy you to explain to my why that is not 3 Gods. Three answers. Three people, all are God.

If you can figure out how they are not all Gods, please explain it.

Can you see why Muslims think you are polytheists? Now the shoe is on the other foot.

I know. It is a “mystery”. Everything in Catholicism is a mystery. And now we will have 900 replies on the ineffibility of God. Save your breath. I know He is so far beyond us that we can never understand a smidgen of any of it.

But any God who would reveal himself to mankind would at least have what little we do know make sense.

 

[mfbukowski]

Hey, I was in a hurry. Thats why I posted the article. That should explain it for you.

K

 

[mfbukowski]

Good question.

I think you are also preaching the plurality of Gods. Or at least a plurality of answers to the question of “What are you”?

It doesn’t explain much does it?

 

[mfbukowski]

Which explains why what you have quoted could at first seem troubling. It is too bad you did not put as much effort into your own catechesis as you have in exploring your new faith.

The only answers I got was “it’s a mystery”. And no one including you has answered any questions I had 40 years ago. Why do you think I am here? Still no answers, just insults. You got nothin’

 

[mfbukowski]

Realcatholicgk:
You are laughable, and quit PMing me. They suspend people around here for harrassment Mr. Power Catholic. How can you be powerful if you can’t even be persuasive? You don’t persuade people by insulting them.

 

[mfbukowski]

Since your group is what every educated person in the world even a Psychology major would call a cult, why do you deny your group that name? That is like real Protestant saying they weren’t Heretics. Denying a thing that is true and provable doesn’t make it any less true or provable does it?

Accept that you are not a member of an Orthodox religion following Jesus Christ and His real teaching! Your new improved religion is just another cult that will divide, multiply and someday dsappear. I understand it is occurring already! There are even rewrites of the BOM! Why in less than 500 years you may have 61,000 groups like the Protestants do now!

Quit PMing me. Mr Power Catholic? give me a break. You are not even persuasive. How can you persuade anybody by insulting them? You are piece of work, I’ll tell you that.

 

[ricko]

Trinity

Being/nature answers the question “What?” and person answers the question “Who?” For example, pointing to my mother, the question “What is she?” is answered with, “A human being.” The question of “Who is she?” is answered with, “Janie.”

All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.

 

[mfbukowski]

K guys I’m outa here. No answers here, just abuse. And even I can figure out when I am not wanted.

 

[RebeccaJ]

K guys I’m outa here. No answers here, just abuse. And even I can figure out when I am not wanted.

Try lectio divina, and ask God to help you understand.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The only answers I got was “it’s a mystery”. And no one including you has answered any questions I had 40 years ago. Why do you think I am here? Still no answers, just insults. You got nothin’

Your last five posts have been nothing but insults.

 

[PaulDupre]

One God three persons. You can look at it either way. It is semantics

It is not semantics, it is a crucial reality. I am truly sorry you refuse to see it.

Do you want to really discuss the trinity? It is nonsense. Tell me what “being” and “nature” is. Tell me. I dare you.

Okay. Every living thing is a being. A flower is a being, an aardvark is a being, you are a being, God is a being. A being is a discreet living entity. A rock (not living) is not a being; a rock is merely a thing.

Every living being has a nature. A being’s nature is the essence of what kind of being it is. A flower has a plant nature - it grows and reproduces but does not move or think. An aardvark has an animal nature - it grows, reproduces and thinks but does not reason and has no free will. A human has a human nature - we grow,reproduce, think, reason, create, ponder our own existence and seek fulfillment in God. God is unique in that He is the only being with a divine nature. Jesus is unique in that He posesses two natures - divine and human - completely united and integrated. He possesses all of the attributes of the Godhead, bodily (see Colossians 2:9).

The aardvark is zero persons in one being. A human is one person in one being. God is three persons in one being. That is one of the characteristics of the “God nature” - God’s nature is unique in that He exists as a family of three persons. No other being exists in that way. There is only one God. Humans will never have a divine nature. If we are faithful, we will inherit all that the Father has, but not what He is. We can never be anything but human. We can become glorified humans in the presence of God, but we will still be humans.

Hope this helps,
Paul

 

[web2009]

Trinity

Being/nature answers the question “What?” and person answers the question “Who?” For example, pointing to my mother, the question “What is she?” is answered with, “A human being.” The question of “Who is she?” is answered with, “Janie.”

All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.

Thanks Rick, the analogy really helps

Erica

 

[web2009]

It is not semantics, it is a crucial reality. I am truly sorry you refuse to see it.

Okay. Every living thing is a being. A flower is a being, an aardvark is a being, you are a being, God is a being. A being is a discreet living entity. A rock (not living) is not a being; a rock is merely a thing.

Every living being has a nature. A being’s nature is the essence of what kind of being it is. A flower has a plant nature - it grows and reproduces but does not move or think. An aardvark has an animal nature - it grows, reproduces and thinks but does not reason and has no free will. A human has a human nature - we grow,reproduce, think, reason, create, ponder our own existence and seek fulfillment in God. God is unique in that He is the only being with a divine nature. Jesus is unique in that He posesses two natures - divine and human - completely united and integrated. He possesses all of the attributes of the Godhead, bodily (see Colossians 2:9).

The aardvark is zero persons in one being. A human is one person in one being. God is three persons in one being. That is one of the characteristics of the “God nature” - God’s nature is unique in that He exists as a family of three persons. No other being exists in that way. There is only one God. Humans will never have a divine nature. If we are faithful, we will inherit all that the Father has, but not what He is. We can never be anything but human. We can become glorified humans in the presence of God, but we will still be humans.

Hope this helps,
Paul

Thank you Paul, it makes sense to me, when before it never did.

Erica

 

[Chanticleer]

Reading this thread brought to mind something I read concerning the Trinity that I put in my journel to ponder. It may be of help to our LDS friends.

Before I quote my journal entry I would ask LDS readers to remember that Traditional Christianity does not look upon Heavenly Father as a created being. This means there is a HUGE difference in perspective on what it means to be DIVINE. A created being requires a creator or parents which is exactly what LDS theology teaches. In LDS theology Heavenly Father has a perfected physical “body with parts and passions”. God in his divine essence in LDS theology is a perfected HUMAN who will continue perfecting himself into eternity… This is why the Traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity makes no sense to the LDS who try to grasp its meaning using their own definition of who and what God is.
In order to approach the Traditional Doctrine of the Trinity we have to start with the idea that our Heavenly Father is NOT HUMAN and does not have a physical body or a father. God the Father is uncreated and eternal. God had no beginning and has no end. Every thing that exists has God as its source, yes even “eternal intelligence”. In our view, God would be the source (not the organizer) of “eternal intelligence” if there were such a thing. ( Catholic readers F.Y.I., the LDS church teaches that the essence of each human being has always existed, as opposed to being created. This pre-mortal eternal existing essence of each human is referred to as" intelligence". In other words, the LDS God didn’t create our fundamental, individual identities out of nothing. In fact he didn’t create us at all. Why? Because he at one time was a pre -mortal intelligence/essence himself. He is an advanced link in the eternal chain ,if you will.) LDS don’t discuss where the eternal intelligence come from for the same reason that Catholics don’t discuss where God came from.Both exist eternally and are uncreated. Hey we actually have one concept in common!
In understanding the Traditional Trinity, the LDS would do well to transfer their eternal concepts of eternal intelligence to the Traditional Christian concept of God in the sense that God is Eternal i.e. always existed, was not created. God instead creates out of nothing and God is not subject to any pre existing divine role.
Okay, finally my Trinity journal entry…

Joseph Ratzinger says in “Introduction to Christianity”
St. Augustine once enshrined this idea in the following formula: “He is not called Father with reference to himself but only in relation to the Son; seen by himself he is simply God” Here the decisive point comes beautifully to light."Father is purely a concept of relationship. Only in being for the other is he Father; in his own being-in himself he is simply God . Person is the pure relation of being-related, nothing else. In other words,Father,Son and Holy Spirit are not separate individuals or “absolute” entities. Rather they are three distinct relations and each relation is identical with divine essence.
John Paul II says:“God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.” The doctrine of the Trinity means that the family is not a mere sociological or biological human fact but “goes all the way up” into the nature of
God. End of entry

To me, this says that our experience of family as created beings
is a concrete metaphor of the inner family life of the Trinity. It is all about being for the other. Our whole Christian walk is about being for the other whether it be God or our fellow human beings. Eternal life for a Christian is to be enfolded in God’s family forever and that starts as soon as we say yes and continue to say yes. To be enfolded in God’s life does not mean we lose our individual identities or our families, we actually gain a bigger family…Eternal life has nothing to do with becoming a God or reproducing throughout all eternity. Why?
What would be the point? I can’t think of any reason for wanting to be God or a God. I can think of a lot for NOT wanting to be God. Deification In Trad. Christianity does not mean we become God or Gods. It means that God shares his Divine life with us (at our request) and in the process we are made Holy. I am thrilled at God’s invitation to be a member of His household throughout all eternity.
I love my earthly life with all its heartaches and flaws and I have it on good Authority that this is but a poor imitation of what is to come for those that Love God.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

I think you are also preaching the plurality of Gods. Or at least a plurality of answers to the question of “What are you”?

It doesn’t explain much does it?

That’s why it is called the “Mystery of the Trinity” our human brains can not comprehend how 1 God could be among 3 different deities. We are not supposed to understand yet. It’s like trying to fit the ocean into 1 glass; we don’t have the capacity to understand it in our mortal brains. Jesus also states several times that God was a mystery, but to have Faith!! Job 11:7 is a great place in the bible where it states this; really all of Job 11 is about this. Another very good book is, 1 Corinthians 2:7. 1 Timothy 3:16 “Beyond all question, the mystery from which true Godliness springs is great: **He appeared in a body **was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.” Just have Faith in it. Just stop trying to figure out how it is HUMANLY possible, and try to understand that it beyond our knowledge at this time. We will know fully one day, but not yet. We are not in a state of complete grace, so that is why we can not understand complete grace. If we were there with God in Heaven (complete Grace) then we would know. He told us all before we even came to earth who we were and who He is. It is up to us to remember, and have Faith in what Jesus told us. Jesus wants us to remember, that’s why He told the apostles the mysteries and why they are mysteries. We have not been granted that honor of knowing just yet. As long as we can accept that, and be patient, the more at peace we will be. Faith, Love, Peace, Patience. They all have to be done together. You can not understand one without the other, or do one without the other.
God Bless, Alisha

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Reading this thread brought to mind something I read concerning the Trinity that I put in my journel to ponder. It may be of help to our LDS friends.

Before I quote my journal entry I would ask LDS readers to remember that Traditional Christianity does not look upon Heavenly Father as a created being. This means there is a HUGE difference in perspective on what it means to be DIVINE. A created being requires a creator or parents which is exactly what LDS theology teaches. In LDS theology Heavenly Father has a perfected physical “body with parts and passions”. God in his divine essence in LDS theology is a perfected HUMAN who will continue perfecting himself into eternity… This is why the Traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity makes no sense to the LDS who try to grasp its meaning using their own definition of who and what God is.
In order to approach the Traditional Doctrine of the Trinity we have to start with the idea that our Heavenly Father is NOT HUMAN and does not have a physical body or a father. God the Father is uncreated and eternal. God had no beginning and has no end. Every thing that exists has God as its source, yes even “eternal intelligence”. In our view, God would be the source (not the organizer) of “eternal intelligence” if there were such a thing. ( Catholic readers F.Y.I., the LDS church teaches that the essence of each human being has always existed, as opposed to being created. This pre-mortal eternal existing essence of each human is referred to as" intelligence". In other words, the LDS God didn’t create our fundamental, individual identities out of nothing. In fact he didn’t create us at all. Why? Because he at one time was a pre -mortal intelligence/essence himself. He is an advanced link in the eternal chain ,if you will.) LDS don’t discuss where the eternal intelligence come from for the same reason that Catholics don’t discuss where God came from.Both exist eternally and are uncreated. Hey we actually have one concept in common!
In understanding the Traditional Trinity, the LDS would do well to transfer their eternal concepts of eternal intelligence to the Traditional Christian concept of God in the sense that God is Eternal i.e. always existed, was not created. God instead creates out of nothing and God is not subject to any pre existing divine role.
Okay, finally my Trinity journal entry…

Joseph Ratzinger says in “Introduction to Christianity”
St. Augustine once enshrined this idea in the following formula: “He is not called Father with reference to himself but only in relation to the Son; seen by himself he is simply God” Here the decisive point comes beautifully to light."Father is purely a concept of relationship. Only in being for the other is he Father; in his own being-in himself he is simply God . Person is the pure relation of being-related, nothing else. In other words,Father,Son and Holy Spirit are not separate individuals or “absolute” entities. Rather they are three distinct relations and each relation is identical with divine essence.
John Paul II says:“God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.” The doctrine of the Trinity means that the family is not a mere sociological or biological human fact but “goes all the way up” into the nature of
God. End of entry

To me, this says that our experience of family as created beings
is a concrete metaphor of the inner family life of the Trinity. It is all about being for the other. Our whole Christian walk is about being for the other whether it be God or our fellow human beings. Eternal life for a Christian is to be enfolded in God’s family forever and that starts as soon as we say yes and continue to say yes. To be enfolded in God’s life does not mean we lose our individual identities or our families, we actually gain a bigger family…Eternal life has nothing to do with becoming a God or reproducing throughout all eternity. Why?
What would be the point? I can’t think of any reason for wanting to be God or a God. I can think of a lot for NOT wanting to be God. Deification In Trad. Christianity does not mean we become God or Gods. It means that God shares his Divine life with us (at our request) and in the process we are made Holy. I am thrilled at God’s invitation to be a member of His household throughout all eternity.
I love my earthly life with all its heartaches and flaws and I have it on good Authority that this is but a poor imitation of what is to come for those that Love God.

I love that!! I love what you wrote! That is exactly how I feel. I do not want to be God either. I want to serve God for all of eternity, and live in complete peace and love with Him. Thats all i want! That is why I try my hardest to obey (even though it is very hard sometimes) because I want to live my life so that I can be with Him, in His heaven, that he created for us for all of eternity, for ever and ever.

 

[PaulDupre]

Thank you Paul, it makes sense to me, when before it never did.

Erica

You made my day, Erica!

Paul

 

[truthsilence]

K guys I’m outa here. No answers here, just abuse. And even I can figure out when I am not wanted.

Yes, you are wanted. Ever hear of tough love?

Buck up soldier!

You’re getting answers. Perhaps you just don’t see.

 

[web2009]

Reading this thread brought to mind something I read concerning the Trinity that I put in my journel to ponder. It may be of help to our LDS friends.

Before I quote my journal entry I would ask LDS readers to remember that Traditional Christianity does not look upon Heavenly Father as a created being. This means there is a HUGE difference in perspective on what it means to be DIVINE. A created being requires a creator or parents which is exactly what LDS theology teaches. In LDS theology Heavenly Father has a perfected physical “body with parts and passions”. God in his divine essence in LDS theology is a perfected HUMAN who will continue perfecting himself into eternity… This is why the Traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity makes no sense to the LDS who try to grasp its meaning using their own definition of who and what God is.
In order to approach the Traditional Doctrine of the Trinity we have to start with the idea that our Heavenly Father is NOT HUMAN and does not have a physical body or a father. God the Father is uncreated and eternal. God had no beginning and has no end. Every thing that exists has God as its source, yes even “eternal intelligence”. In our view, God would be the source (not the organizer) of “eternal intelligence” if there were such a thing. ( Catholic readers F.Y.I., the LDS church teaches that the essence of each human being has always existed, as opposed to being created. This pre-mortal eternal existing essence of each human is referred to as" intelligence". In other words, the LDS God didn’t create our fundamental, individual identities out of nothing. In fact he didn’t create us at all. Why? Because he at one time was a pre -mortal intelligence/essence himself. He is an advanced link in the eternal chain ,if you will.) LDS don’t discuss where the eternal intelligence come from for the same reason that Catholics don’t discuss where God came from.Both exist eternally and are uncreated. Hey we actually have one concept in common!
In understanding the Traditional Trinity, the LDS would do well to transfer their eternal concepts of eternal intelligence to the Traditional Christian concept of God in the sense that God is Eternal i.e. always existed, was not created. God instead creates out of nothing and God is not subject to any pre existing divine role.
Okay, finally my Trinity journal entry…

Joseph Ratzinger says in “Introduction to Christianity”
St. Augustine once enshrined this idea in the following formula: “He is not called Father with reference to himself but only in relation to the Son; seen by himself he is simply God” Here the decisive point comes beautifully to light."Father is purely a concept of relationship. Only in being for the other is he Father; in his own being-in himself he is simply God . Person is the pure relation of being-related, nothing else. In other words,Father,Son and Holy Spirit are not separate individuals or “absolute” entities. Rather they are three distinct relations and each relation is identical with divine essence.
John Paul II says:“God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.” The doctrine of the Trinity means that the family is not a mere sociological or biological human fact but “goes all the way up” into the nature of
God. End of entry

To me, this says that our experience of family as created beings
is a concrete metaphor of the inner family life of the Trinity. It is all about being for the other. Our whole Christian walk is about being for the other whether it be God or our fellow human beings. Eternal life for a Christian is to be enfolded in God’s family forever and that starts as soon as we say yes and continue to say yes. To be enfolded in God’s life does not mean we lose our individual identities or our families, we actually gain a bigger family…Eternal life has nothing to do with becoming a God or reproducing throughout all eternity. Why?
What would be the point? I can’t think of any reason for wanting to be God or a God. I can think of a lot for NOT wanting to be God. Deification In Trad. Christianity does not mean we become God or Gods. It means that God shares his Divine life with us (at our request) and in the process we are made Holy. I am thrilled at God’s invitation to be a member of His household throughout all eternity.
I love my earthly life with all its heartaches and flaws and I have it on good Authority that this is but a poor imitation of what is to come for those that Love God.

What about the theory about perpetual energy? Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but is transferred from one medium to another…

Does that not he support the mormon theory that we have always existed?

Erica

 

[mfbukowski]

Okay. Every living thing is a being. A flower is a being, an aardvark is a being, you are a being, God is a being. A being is a discreet living entity. A rock (not living) is not a being; a rock is merely a thing.

So are spirits beings? Spirits are not living things. God is a spirit according to you. And you really think you can do what Aquinas could not do – make sense of this? Good luck. Is the earth a being? Or don’t you subscribe to the Gaia theory? Is a virus a being? Is it a living thing? What are the defining characteristics of a living being?

Every living being has a nature. A being’s nature is the essence of what kind of being it is. A flower has a plant nature - it grows and reproduces but does not move or think. An aardvark has an animal nature - it grows, reproduces and thinks but does not reason and has no free will. A human has a human nature - we grow,reproduce, think, reason, create, ponder our own existence and seek fulfillment in God.

There is an interesting news story today about a Chimpanzee who liked to watch TV and preferred one baseball team over another. And retarded people cannot reason. Are they human? What exactly is “reasoning”? Problem solving?

“Nature” is not defineable precisely, and yet you are constructing the trinity on non defineable terms.

It seems that this whole notion of “nature” is manufactured to make the argument work. It is a question-begging definition. It is like the medieval answer to the question “Why can man reason”? the answer being “By virtue of his reasoning faculties”. It doesn’t really explain anything at all, and on its own is not a useful concept. Is the idea of “nature” useful anywhere except in theology? (doubtful if useful here except to create spurious arguments) “Your honor, my client is innocent, because he has a murderous nature”. Good luck with that defense. Where else do we use the idea of humans having a “nature”?

God is unique in that He is the only being with a divine nature.

But in a Platonic sense, how then can we know what a divine nature is if there is only one of Him and I can’t see him? I can abstract what a human is by knowing many human beings, but if there is only one God, how can I understand what his “nature” is? How could I know what his “nature” is?

But is he a “living thing?” I am still not sure what a “being” is since it was imprecisely defined. I cannot accept this. If we are going to use this to construct the notion of trinity we need to get it precisely or I will not understand it and think it is nonsense as I do now. Are the spirits of dead people “beings?” “Being” is exactly co-extensive with life or not? Did Jesus have “being” before He was born? Do we? Why or why not? Are “beings” created? If I am thinking about having a baby with my wife, is that potential child a being? When it is conceived is it a being? So beings can go in and out of existence? That is why it is important to know if spirits are beings. So if beings can go in and out of existence, is God an exception? How then is he a “Being”? What is the defining characteristic of a “Being” if it is not life?

Jesus is unique in that He posesses two natures - divine and human - completely united and integrated. He possesses all of the attributes of the Godhead, bodily (see Colossians 2:9).

The aardvark is zero persons in one being.

Dang. A new term, “person”. I still don’t get the first two. Are chimpanzees persons? Retarded people? Zygotes? Spirits?

A human is one person in one being.

In? Like “inside of”? I am not sure of the the relationship between the notion of person and being, and yet the words imply there there is a relationship between personhood and being. Is it like a spirit in a body?

I am totally confused. It all seems very imprecise and vague. And if my salvation rests on understanding this, I want to get it right but can’t seem to understand it.

God is three persons in one being. That is one of the characteristics of the “God nature” - God’s nature is unique in that He exists as a family of three persons. No other being exists in that way. There is only one God. Humans will never have a divine nature. If we are faithful, we will inherit all that the Father has, but not what He is. We can never be anything but human. We can become glorified humans in the presence of God, but we will still be humans.

Wow I am totally confused. Better hold off on this part until we answer those questions.

Hope this helps,
Paul

Not really.