Mormon missionaries tell me Native Americans are from Israel

[talter]

…as the Elders of the LDS church will not allow any but members of the high council of Apostles view the handful of surviving gold plates…

What surviving gold plates? The plates which the BoM was “translated” from were taken away by Moroni so are no longer available to anyone, not even the First Presidency of the church. The BoA was translated from papyri which was found in the 1960s and returned to the LDS church. Inspection of the papyri shows that the scrolls are ordinary Egyptian pagan funeral documents. Then of course there are the Kinderhook plates which were a hoax to prove that Joseph Smith was a con man. So what plates are you referring to? Just curious.

 

[Jerusha]

This person claims to have evidence they lived around the Great Lakes:

bookofmormonlands.com/

Although she was TBM, she was on the right track, and this is the traditional LDS geography for the BOM. However, they got the ethnicity and the time-frame wrong in order to get the story to fit the Jewish theory. :juggle: So then they had to run to Mexico because the Viking solution was so obvious.

Thanks for that link, I don’t think I have read that piece of Mormonilia yet.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

How coincidental that we covered this very thing in religion this morning with my children. (!!)

Boniface VIII lacked the diplomacy required to deal with the difficult and changing political landscape. For years, the Church had enjoyed a pretty balanced influence on temporal authority, one facet of which was the legal foundation of civil society.

To make a long story short, the grandson of St. Louis IX of France, one of its greatest kings and a great friend of the Church, was Philip.

Philip inherited none of his grandad’s saintly characteristics. He undertook a series of wars, particularly against England. To bone up his funds, he turned to Church lands to supplement his treasury. The Church had heretofore been largely exempt, as it is today, from taxation.

In 1296, to chastise Philip, Boniface wrote Clericis laicos, in which he asserted that kings did not have the right to tax clergy of their own voilition. Philip responded by cutting off all French shipments of gold, liver, and jewels to Italy. Philip also aressted the papal legate on trumped up charges. The pope demanded his release on pain of mortal sin. That is what this letter, Unum Sanctam is all about. A perfectly legitimate thing to do.

Philip tried to call his own council, the Estates General, to condemn and depose the pope. He kidnapped the pope and held him for three days. Shortly after, the pope died from the poor treatment he received at his hands. Soon after, the papacy was forced to move to France in an attempt to weaken it.

So, you see, nothing is as simple as it looks at a distance. I think you owe the Church a little bit of slack.**
Thanks for the info. I know it doesn’t apply to the thread but it’s good to know the background of this quote.

 

[Catholic20064]

Although she was TBM, she was on the right track, and this is the traditional LDS geography for the BOM. However, they got the ethnicity and the time-frame wrong in order to get the story to fit the Jewish theory. :juggle: So then they had to run to Mexico because the Viking solution was so obvious.

Thanks for that link, I don’t think I have read that piece of Mormonilia yet.

This guy seems pretty convinced their were no Book of Mormon peoples in the United States.

farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=347

The Hill Cumorah was in New York so it seems to me the people would have lived there if the Book of Mormon were true. Searching the internet on this is pretty interesting.

 

[PaulDupre]

Actually what I listed was directly stated by Pope Boniface VII, it isn’t a “falsehood” about the Catholic Church at all, however it is frequently used to lob grenades at Catholics by quoting it out of context.

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff."

POPE BONIFACE VIII Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302 AD)"

See the example I used was right on…

Remember that in the year 1302 AD there was only one Christian Church in the West - The Catholic Church. In context, Pope Boniface was saying that if you reject Jesus and Christianity you cannot be saved. That is still true today.

God bless,
Paul

 

[Jerusha]

If my theory is true, then it is very reasonable that Native peoples, re-encountering Christianity, were flabbergasted at the anger between sects that the protestant reformation brought. And still are.

Tenskawata, in his effort to return his people to traditional ways encouraged people to use beads to pray on. One cannot use this to generalize to all tribes, each tribe and each individual is different.

 

[pismopal]

LOL good grief can anyone see that I brought up this example as something OTHERS do unfairly to disparage the Church? Seriously go read my posts people. Forget it, people here are simply incapable of reading anything in context, it’s sad…

So…you think we are all “contextual deviates”?

 

[pismopal]

What surviving gold plates? The plates which the BoM was “translated” from were taken away by Moroni so are no longer available to anyone, not even the First Presidency of the church. The BoA was translated from papyri which was found in the 1960s and returned to the LDS church. Inspection of the papyri shows that the scrolls are ordinary Egyptian pagan funeral documents. Then of course there are the Kinderhook plates which were a hoax to prove that Joseph Smith was a con man. So what plates are you referring to? Just curious.

There are indeed no gold plates and the LDS know that very well. I have often thought to myself " self if you had some golden plates upon which were written secrets from G-d that would effect all mankind…don’t you think you would take better care of them?

 

[swariffin]

The Native American thing is one of the most controversial claims of Mormonism and there’s been lots of DNA studies on it. The DNA evidence is conclusive: 99.4% of Native American Indian DNA originated in northern Asia, the remaining 0.6% originated in either Europe or Africa and is found only in samples traced to the post-1492 colonial era (after Columbus arrived in the New World).

Dear Catholic20064 and FightingFat,

I don’t know about mormonism to make any comment. Is there any possibility that somewhere in the book of Mormon, mentioning something which says the Asian are the descendent of the Israelites?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

There are indeed no gold plates and the LDS know that very well. I have often thought to myself " self if you had some golden plates upon which were written secrets from G-d that would effect all mankind…don’t you think you would take better care of them?

Pssst, hey pismopal!

They’re buried under the outdoor patio at the Splash Cafe on Monterey in SLO.

Don’t tell those Catholics at the Old Mission Parish, they will just find them and destroy the evidence!

Robert

(AG on Nipomo Mesa)

 

[Subrosa]

Not His physical self. However, if you realize that Catholicism existed at the settlements on Greenland, and if you define Greenland as being part of North America, and acknowlege that there were probably at least a few Masses said in the Newfoundland/Labrador area, His Real Presence was there.

Well, DUH! Let me get a stick so I can scrape my shoe off! I really stepped in that one! uch:

Sub

 

[Jerusha]

:bounce: LOL!!

LDS have brainwashed people into thinking that if you EVER read the BOM, you will convert. This doesn’t mean that a non-LDS could study the BOM with the purpose of disproving it. Actually there is the uncanny fact that the timeline for a bishop being appointed to Greenland matches the chronology exactly.

Really, your questions were so direct, I thought you were leading me to explain my theories. If it was unintentional, then it was truly the Spirit.

 

[pismopal]

Pssst, hey pismopal!

They’re buried under the outdoor patio at the Splash Cafe on Monterey in SLO.

Don’t tell those Catholics at the Old Mission Parish, they will just find them and destroy the evidence!

Robert

(AG on Nipomo Mesa)

Robert, my seals are lipped! I moved from PB to AG behind village but I didn’t like the moniker AG pal. Keep smiling…we live in paradise…c’est bon

 

[Jerusha]

Is there any possibility that somewhere in the book of Mormon, mentioning something which says the Asian are the descendent of the Israelites?

You didn’t ask me, and I apologise for responding.

However, there is no mention of that in the BOM. That is only an after-the-fact explanation. Really quite a stretch to imagine Israelites landing on the coast of Chile, as JS said, don’t you think?

If there is ANY historical truth to the BOM, it can ONLY be with the Viking invasion, which puts the BOM in an entirely different light.

 

[hosemonkey]

You didn’t ask me, and I apologise for responding.

However, there is no mention of that in the BOM. That is only an after-the-fact explanation. Really quite a stretch to imagine Israelites landing on the coast of Chile, as JS said, don’t you think?

If there is ANY historical truth to the BOM, it can ONLY be with the Viking invasion, which puts the BOM in an entirely different light.

I think that everyone agrees that the BOM is a hodgepodge of material from the KJV, A View Of The Hebrews and the fertile imagination of Joe Smith. Some authorities also postulate that Oliver Cowdery may have written much of it. Of course, the very convenient “disappearance” of the alleged gold plates makes any verification impossible. Also, the more than 4000 changes and revisions since first publication do not speak well of “the most perfect book ever written.” The “Book of Abraham” was an outright fabrication, the alleged translation provided by Joseph Smith turned out to be a standard copy of the Egyptian “Book Of Breathings” placed in many Egyptian burials. The whole thing is phony and deceptive.

 

[Jerusha]

I think that everyone agrees that the BOM is a hodgepodge of material from the KJV, A View Of The Hebrews and the fertile imagination of Joe Smith…

Well, NEARLY everyone, except for conservative LDS. Some believe that there were more sources than that, but your statement is basically true.

 

[Catholic20064]

When the missionaries came Wednesday night I gave them some of the information about the problems with DNA, etc. They said they didn’t know much about that, but if I pray about the Book of Mormon the Holy Ghost will let me know the Book of Mormon is true. They said they had been taught in school that Native Americans came from Asia, but it didn’t make any difference because God had told them differently. They were pretty sincere. I guess I will just have to read the Book of Mormon and see how I feel about it. It does make sense that God would let the Native Americans know about Jesus.

 

[PaulDupre]

When the missionaries came Wednesday night I gave them some of the information about the problems with DNA, etc. They said they didn’t know much about that, but if I pray about the Book of Mormon the Holy Ghost will let me know the Book of Mormon is true. They said they had been taught in school that Native Americans came from Asia, but it didn’t make any difference because God had told them differently. They were pretty sincere. I guess I will just have to read the Book of Mormon and see how I feel about it. It does make sense that God would let the Native Americans know about Jesus.

As you are reading the Book of Mormon, keep in mind that all of the Christian practices these Jews are doing (baptizing, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, preaching the cross of Christ, etc.) are portrayed as being done in 600 BC!

If you’ve read the OT, the whole concept of ancient Jews behaving like 19th-century Protestants in 600 BC is laughable.

You’d almost think the guys who wrote it were 19th-century Protestants.

God love you,
Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

When the missionaries came Wednesday night I gave them some of the information about the problems with DNA, etc. They said they didn’t know much about that, but if I pray about the Book of Mormon the Holy Ghost will let me know the Book of Mormon is true. They said they had been taught in school that Native Americans came from Asia, but it didn’t make any difference because God had told them differently. They were pretty sincere. I guess I will just have to read the Book of Mormon and see how I feel about it. It does make sense that God would let the Native Americans know about Jesus.

Be aware that one thing mormonism does is define for you what your own feelings mean. Those missionaries have already started that indoctrination by telling you that if you read the BoM and feel good, then that means the BoM is true.

Feelings are not a good indicator of anything. I feel good when the Hallmark card commercials air…maybe that means I should start a Church of the Holy Hallmark Card.

 

[Jerusha]

Be aware that one thing mormonism does is define for you what your own feelings mean. Those missionaries have already started that indoctrination by telling you that if you read the BoM and feel good, then that means the BoM is true.

And if I read the BOM and feel angry to the point of indigestion and only want to rip it up and throw it away, they will tell me that what I am experiencing is “conviction”, that I have been so indoctrinated that it makes me angry to see that everything I have been trained to believe is false. However, those perceptions are only projections of their own feelings.

“Burning in the bousom” is nothing more than indigestion.

And they tell me that I have no rights to interpret my own feelings, and believe that I have no rights at all.

Feelings are not a good indicator of anything.

There is no logical foundation to the whole BOM. It contains many contradictions and the flaws are so numerous as to make it laughable. 1 Nephi has a section about that.

Feelings can have a logical and rational foundation. It is only when others have the gall to tell you what your feelings are and what they are about that you come to a point of either not trusting your feelings, or not trusting those “others”.