T
ThurifAcolyte
Guest
chris2009, please research more about the Trinity before mentioning straw men arguments. Trinitarians don’t believe that Jesus saw Himself descending, or that He was talking/praying to Himself. Nor do we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit merge together into one substance. The Trinity begins (or ends) with the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, distinct Persons, not one Person. Therefore, if you think we believe that Jesus saw Himself ascend, or that He was praying to Himself, you aren’t talking about our actual beliefs. That is a Unitarian/Oneness Pentecostal position, which we do not hold.Some say the main arguement leading to the Nicene Creed was between the Greek words “homoousios” (same substance) and “homoiousios” (similar substance). The difference is the Greek letter “i” or “iota”. The arguement was over one iota.
Arius and Athanasius were opponents competing to promote their views. Arius believed the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were of “similar substance” while Athanasius believed they were of the “same substance”. The church was split on this doctrine and many prominent people including Constantius II and Valens were Arians.
How could the very nature of God be in question around 325 AD? This seems like an essential basic doctrine that every Christian should know the answer to. Some try to minimize this, but this was a big debate. Enough so that Emporer Constantine was concerned it would split the church or divide Rome.
If this were to happen during the days of Christ, the apostles would have put an immediate end to it by receiving revelation directly from God. Who was leading the church in 325 AD? Where were the apostles and prophets? All that was left was the role of bishop passed down through the centuries.
Constantine put an end to the debate when he gathered all the bishops to the Council of Nicea and created the Nicene Creed. Arius and his followers were exiled and books were burned. It was settled that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were of the “same substance”.
Centuries later, bishops were STILL not satisfied with this new doctrine voted on through pressure of the Roman Emporer. The doctrine was then amended to satisfy all by saying God was BOTH three AND one. This completely confuses everything. It is impossible to have faith in a God you cannot understand. This is the Athanasian Creed that most Catholics and Protestants follow today. Yes, the Protestants who wanted to reform the Catholic Church because they felt it was corrupted continued it’s basic doctrines. Was this new revelation? I thought revelation had ended?
I contend that there are three Gods – the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I believe this true doctrine was changed by those in power.
John 14:28 “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”
Matt 3:16-17 “16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Jesus did not see himself descending, nor did he talk to himself.
John 17:11 “And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”
Here Jesus is giving the intercessory prayer the night before his death. He is praying to his Father asking that his disciples may be ONE the same way he and his Father are ONE. The disciples cannot merge together into ONE substance. To be one means to be unified in purpose and in harmony. I don’t know of any scripture that can be more clear.
Also, btw, we don’t believe that all revelation ended. All people can receive revelations, and many of our canonized saints were prophets and prophetesses (the Bible speaks of female prophets as well).