Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[rinnie]

Parker I am not completly sure on this, so you can call me on it. But Didn’t Jesus Call Peter Simon son of John 2 times.

The first time when he gave him the keys to the Kingdom before his death. And after his death before he departed back into heaven in the end of the Gospel of John? To confirm what he said the first time.

I am thinking he callled him that when he gave him the keys. And then he called him that once more when he told him to feed the Sheep which confirmed he was still the leader of the Sheep.

 

[rinnie]

I am also pretty sure that there were also the 2 times Peter spoke to Jesus divine.

The first time was when he confirmed he was the SOn of God that was told to him from God. ANd the last time was when Peter spoke back to Christ divine.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker I am not completly sure on this, so you can call me on it. But Didn’t Jesus Call Peter Simon son of John 2 times.

The first time when he gave him the keys to the Kingdom before his death. And after his death before he departed back into heaven in the end of the Gospel of John? To confirm what he said the first time.

I am thinking he callled him that when he gave him the keys. And then he called him that once more when he told him to feed the Sheep which confirmed he was still the leader of the Sheep.

Hi, Rinnie,

The words are “Simon Barjona” in Matthew 16 and “Simon, son of Jonas” in John 21. But if you have been led to believe that therein is some sort of significant meaning, then I suppose that is another situation where Christ knew perfectly that His use of the name “Simon” would give someone an opportunity to suppose an important meaning and give them a test about the foundation Rock being the Savior with the importance of revealed knowledge of Him–for certain–and about the Good Shepherd being the Savior–for certain, always and forever.

The gospel writers say “Simon Peter” and “Simon surnamed Peter” and also “Simon He surnamed Peter”, so when we find his name as “Simon Peter” in Acts and in his own epistle, then we shouldn’t be surprised.

About feeding the sheep–please again note that the Savior referred to the sheep as “my sheep” and “my lambs”, meaning that the Savior retained His primary role as the Good Shepherd and the leader of the sheep. He was not turning over the leadership role of being The Shepherd of the sheep, to Peter, at all. Peter was being asked to feed the Good Shepherd’s sheep and lambs.

Again, the Savior is the Leader of the sheep, always and forever. He wants to lead us in the very same way–by being the living, guiding Good Shepherd for us. Then, too, we can also gain from being fed by prophets and apostles and other inspired leaders who follow the guidance of the Holy Ghost as they speak or teach.

 

[KathleenGee]

Man needs visible signs, concrete leaders through which the Holy Spirit manifests Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd. Faith is not arbitrary but professes certitude.

Christ made Peter His Good Shepherd.

Many times Christ exhorted us not to be afraid…From John Paul II’s, ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’… Regarding the Seat of Saint Peter, a question was brought forward to John Paul II to answer.

The journalist begins his question, 'In front of me is a man dressed in the white of ancient custom, with a cross over his chest. This man who is called the Pope (from “father” in Greek) is a mystery in and of himself, a sign of contradiction. He is even considered a challenge or a “scandal” to logic or good sense by many of our contemporaries.

‘Confronted with the Pope, one must make a choice. The leader of the Catholic Church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the Son of God, who “takes the place” of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity.’

‘Each Pope regards his role with a sense of duty and humility, but also with an equal sense of confidence. Catholics believe this and therefore they call him “Holy Father” or “Your Holiness.”’

‘Nevertheless, according to many others, this is an absurd and unbelievable claim. The Pope, for them, is not God’s representative. He is, instead, the surviving witness of ancient myths and legends that today the “adult” does not accept.’

‘Confronted with you–as with each of your predecessors and successors–one must wager, as Pascal has said, that you are either the mysterious living proof of the Creator of the universe or the central protagonist of a millienial illusion.’

‘May I ask: Have you ever once hesitated in your belief in your relationship with Jesus Christ and therefore with God? Haven’t you ever had, not doubts certainly, but at least questions and problems (as is human) about the truth of this Creed which is repeated at each Mass and which proclaims an unprecedented faith, of which you are the highest guarantor?’

John Paul II answers, ‘…The words of Christ uttered are repeated by the Church. And with the Church, they are repeated by the Pope. I have done so since the first homily I gave in St. Peter’s Square: “Be not afraid!” These are not words said into a void. They are profoundly rooted in the Gospel. They are simply the words of Christ Himself.’

'Of what should we not be afraid? We should not fear the truth about ourselves. One day Peter became aware of this and with particular energy he said to Jesus: “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man” (Lk 5:8)…'Every successor to Peter has learned it. I learned it very well. Every one of us is indebted to Peter for what he said on that day: “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man.” Christ answered him: "Do not be afraid: from now on you will be catching men: (Lk 5:10)…

‘Have no fear when people call me the “Vicar of Christ,” when they say to me “Holy Father” or “Your Holiness” or use titles similar to these, which seem even inimical to the Gospel. Christ Himself declared: “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven. Do not be called ‘Master’; you have a but one master, the Messiah” (Mt 23:9-10). These expressions, nevertheless, have evolved out of a long tradition, becoming part of common usage. One must not be afraid of these words either.’

So, Christ Himself made Peter Shepherd of men.

'Even after the Resurrection, Christ confirmed Peter’s mission. He said meaningfully; “Feed my lambs…Tend my Sheep” (Jn 21:15-16)…‘it had become by now a question of the Holy Spirit, promised by Christ to the one who would take His place on earth.’

‘On Pentecost, Peter was the first to speak to the gathered Israelites and to others who had traveled various distances. He reminded them of the wrong committed by those who had nailed Christ to the Cross, and then he confirmed His resurrection. He exhorted the people to conversion and to baptism. Thanks to the work of the Holy Spirit, Christ could have confidence in Peter, He could lean on him,–on him and on all the other apostles – even on Paul, who still persecuted Christians and hated the name of Jesus.’

‘…What is important is that which comes from the power of the Holy Spirit…Peter persevered in his faith up until the end: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God” (Mt 16:16). Peter became the “rock”, even if as a man, perhaps, he was nothing more than shifting sand. Christ Himself is the rock, and Christ builds His Church on Peter–Peter, Paul, and the apostles. The Church is apostolic in virtue of Christ.’ – John Paul II

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

The words are “Simon Barjona” in Matthew 16 and “Simon, son of Jonas” in John 21. But if you have been led to believe that therein is some sort of significant meaning, then I suppose that is another situation where Christ knew perfectly that His use of the name “Simon” would give someone an opportunity to suppose an important meaning and give them a test about the foundation Rock being the Savior with the importance of revealed knowledge of Him–for certain–and about the Good Shepherd being the Savior–for certain, always and forever.

The gospel writers say “Simon Peter” and “Simon surnamed Peter” and also “Simon He surnamed Peter”, so when we find his name as “Simon Peter” in Acts and in his own epistle, then we shouldn’t be surprised.

About feeding the sheep–please again note that the Savior referred to the sheep as “my sheep” and “my lambs”, meaning that the Savior retained His primary role as the Good Shepherd and the leader of the sheep. He was not turning over the leadership role of being The Shepherd of the sheep, to Peter, at all. Peter was being asked to feed the Good Shepherd’s sheep and lambs.

Again, the Savior is the Leader of the sheep, always and forever. He wants to lead us in the very same way–by being the living, guiding Good Shepherd for us. Then, too, we can also gain from being fed by prophets and apostles and other inspired leaders who follow the guidance of the Holy Ghost as they speak or teach.

Parker I agree that the Great Sherpherd is indeed Christ. But Christ left us a Shepherd in this world also.

But Parker you have another problem. While I agree that we are the Sheep of Christ why did he ask PETER to feed them and guide them? Again why only Peter. And he asked PETER 3 times Parker so you can not deny that it was ONLY Peter he was speaking to.

ANd my here it was Peter he was talking to if because not only did he as Peter 3 Times PETER answered him 3 times. So again Park you are running into a big problem with Scripture by denying that Peter was left to guide us.

Christ gave him the keys, and asked him to feed the sheep. 2 things that prove authority above others. Who was leading Peter Parker. SImple the Holy Spirit. But we do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to lead others Parker we are told to obey the Leaders of the Church.

Now if there is not authority there why does the scripture say if you brother does not listen go to the CHURCH?

 

[rinnie]

Also Parker read what you said. You said the role to feed the sheep was given to Peter but this what not a leadership role at all?

Okay Parker then what was the purpose for Christ to do this then? THere has to be a reason that Christ called himself the Great Shepherd and then to Peter to lead HIS sheep while on this earth.

Do you think that God meant real sheep Parker. IF not you have a problem here. Who were the sheep God asked Peter to feed Parker and more important WHY?

 

[ParkerD]

Also Parker read what you said. You said the role to feed the sheep was given to Peter but this what not a leadership role at all?

Okay Parker then what was the purpose for Christ to do this then? THere has to be a reason that Christ called himself the Great Shepherd and then to Peter to lead HIS sheep while on this earth.

Do you think that God meant real sheep Parker. IF not you have a problem here. Who were the sheep God asked Peter to feed Parker and more important WHY?

Rinnie,

I did indeed remark that Peter had been given a leadership role, but not the role of “head shepherd”. The Bible is quite ample in using the metaphor word “shepherd” to describe those who are to be teachers of the people, but are to teach them through the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost and are to serve them unselfishly. Peter wasn’t the only such leader, as he himself wrote in his epistle. Here are several pertinent verses from the Bible about this metaphor, emphasizing that the flock is “the flock of God” and that there are many “shepherds” but they are “overseers” and that ultimately “the Lord is our shepherd” and He will “cause [us] to lie down” which means that we will feel protected, peaceful, and at rest when we accept His compassionate and loving shepherding directly from Him.

Psalm 23:1-3
1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

Jeremiah 23:2
2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 34:8
8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

Ezekiel 34:10
10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

Ezekiel 34:15
15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel 34:2
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Peter 5:2
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Have a good day, Rinnie.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ specifically named and called Peter to feed and tend His sheep…He made him another shepherd…

The Gospels and the coming of the Holy Spirit fulfill the Word of God in the Old Testament.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

I did indeed remark that Peter had been given a leadership role, but not the role of “head shepherd”. The Bible is quite ample in using the metaphor word “shepherd” to describe those who are to be teachers of the people, but are to teach them through the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost and are to serve them unselfishly. Peter wasn’t the only such leader, as he himself wrote in his epistle. Here are several pertinent verses from the Bible about this metaphor, emphasizing that the flock is “the flock of God” and that there are many “shepherds” but they are “overseers” and that ultimately “the Lord is our shepherd” and He will “cause [us] to lie down” which means that we will feel protected, peaceful, and at rest when we accept His compassionate and loving shepherding directly from Him.

Psalm 23:1-3
1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

Jeremiah 23:2
2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 34:8
8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

Ezekiel 34:10
10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

Ezekiel 34:15
15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel 34:2
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Peter 5:2
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Have a good day, Rinnie.

Hold on here Parker. You are not making sense. You are saying Peter is the leader but not the only leader? Okay then who is Peter the leader of? Is he or is he not the leader of the Apostles?

If Peter is not the Head Shepherd why did Christ tell him he was? Why did he tell Peter to feed the Sheep?

Again if he was not the head shepherd why was HE told to feed the flock? Tell me Parker when they had finished breakfast Jesus said to Peter, Do you love me more then these? What or who was these Parker?

 

[rinnie]

Parker I agree that the Great Sherpherd is indeed Christ. But Christ left us a Shepherd in this world also.

But Parker you have another problem. While I agree that we are the Sheep of Christ why did he ask PETER to feed them and guide them? Again why only Peter. And he asked PETER 3 times Parker so you can not deny that it was ONLY Peter he was speaking to.

ANd my here it was Peter he was talking to if because not only did he as Peter 3 Times PETER answered him 3 times. So again Park you are running into a big problem with Scripture by denying that Peter was left to guide us.

Christ gave him the keys, and asked him to feed the sheep. 2 things that prove authority above others. Who was leading Peter Parker. SImple the Holy Spirit. But we do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to lead others Parker we are told to obey the Leaders of the Church.

Now if there is not authority there why does the scripture say if you brother does not listen go to the CHURCH?

Let me re-do paragraph 2. My Bad. What I meant to say is if Christ was not talking to Peter why did Peter answer him 3 times. Why did not all of the Apostles answer Christ?

Christ is the great shepherd agreed, and Christ holds the keys to the kingdom agreed. BUt Christ gave that authority to Peter when he turned them over to Peter. CHrist gave Peter authoirty when he said to YOU I give the keys to the Kingdom. CHrist made Peter the Chief Apostle when he told him to feed the sheep.

You must read the scripture Parker, who was present when Jesus was talking? All of the Apostles? There you will find your answer.

 

[rinnie]

Christ specifically named and called Peter to feed and tend His sheep…He made him another shepherd…

The Gospels and the coming of the Holy Spirit fulfill the Word of God in the Old Testament.

When you look in the scripture we see that Christ was both human and divine. We see that the reason Christ became Man is he knew that we needed a human leader to talk to and lead us.

Even in the O.T there were human leaders. But they must be led as you said from the divine. That is why Peter is the head of the RCC and is led by the power of the Holy Spirit.

While we agree that all of the Bishops have the power of the Holy Spirit there is only one place for the Pope. The head shepherd as we can say. If this were not true there would not be a Pope.

But as history has shown this has been from the time that Christ made this possible. He said that Peter would be the leader. All of the Apostles knew what the keys to the kingdom meant. The Apostles never had a problem with this.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Historical

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ did not name Peter with the intention of initiating a test, but rather Peter’s role and mission, and the founder of visible head of the Apostolic Catholic Church.

The priesthood is a sacrament, concrete, and when something is concrete, it affirms and has context. There is no arguing, debating…you either believe with grace or you don’t.

The Shepherd knows His sheep and His sheep know Him…likewise…the faithful recognize the Holy Spirit in the papacy, and know when the Holy Father speaks as shepherd representing Christ.

We as laypeople are to pray for our pope, bishops and priests every day.

It is the Holy Spirit who works and affirms.

 

[rinnie]

You know this questions has been asked for years now. And to this day it has never been answered.

How could the Holy Spirit come on the day of Pentecost and lead us astray? This is impossible.

There has to come a time and place that people must see that Christ promised us that he would not leave us orphans, that he would not leave the CC. and that he would never let the devil come into the Church.

The Catholic Church has been here from the day of Pentecost. Its still here and the Holy Spirit is here as Jesus promised.

As I stated in another thread. If the RCC needs reformed then you are trying to reform the Holy Spirit. How is this possible. The Holy Spirit cannot fail us.

I pray that people can see what is written in the true light, and understand that our leaders are only human and yes they can fail. But when they teach in the voice of God as he promised they cannot fail. That would mean that the Pope and Bishops could beat God. That is not possible.

Jesus said they will speak in his voice. And ONLY in his voice when they teach in his name. This is always been held to be the truth and always will. The Holy Spirit will never mislead us. Ever.

 

[rinnie]

Christ did not name Peter with the intention of initiating a test, but rather Peter’s role and mission, and the founder of visible head of the Apostolic Catholic Church.

The priesthood is a sacrament, concrete, and when something is concrete, it affirms and has context. There is no arguing, debating…you either believe with grace or you don’t.

The Shepherd knows His sheep and His sheep know Him…likewise…the faithful recognize the Holy Spirit in the papacy, and know when the Holy Father speaks as shepherd representing Christ.

We as laypeople are to pray for our pope, bishops and priests every day.

It is the Holy Spirit who works and affirms.

Boy talk about Grace. We were writing practically the same thing at the same time

 

[GaryTaylor]

Christ did not name Peter with the intention of initiating a test, but rather Peter’s role and mission, and the founder of visible head of the Apostolic Catholic Church.

The priesthood is a sacrament, concrete, and when something is concrete, it affirms and has context. There is no arguing, debating…you either believe with grace or you don’t.

The Shepherd knows His sheep and His sheep know Him…likewise…the faithful recognize the Holy Spirit in the papacy, and know when the Holy Father speaks as shepherd representing Christ.

We as laypeople are to pray for our pope, bishops and priests every day.

It is the Holy Spirit who works and affirms.

Agree Kathleen, and the more we study Peter as Christs selection then we clearly also see that though History in Christs Church mistakes were expected to be made.

Was Peter the best choice? Really there could have only been one worst choice. Its leads right to Christs state of mind in that loyality was a very big issue, and the idea that severe mistakes would be made, just as with Peter is also a known.

Should indicate why all should remain under the roof of the CC, Regardless of the mistakes made, its going to survive. And rightfully so. Hasn’t the last 50-years and issues presented proved this?

God Bless. Gary

 

[ParkerD]

Hold on here Parker. You are not making sense. You are saying Peter is the leader but not the only leader?

Rinnie,

Of course he wasn’t the only leader.

Okay then who is Peter the leader of?

The twelve (eleven and then twelve again and so forth) apostles, and we can assume the leader of the Seventy also, and the leader of those they all were leaders of.

Is he or is he not the leader of the Apostles?

He was indeed the first called apostle and showed that he had the leadership role among the apostles.

If Peter is not the Head Shepherd why did Christ tell him he was?

He asked Peter to “feed my sheep”. “Feed my lambs.” But this did not change the roles–Christ is the Good Shepherd, and Peter was an “overseer” and a “shepherd of Israel” and was to “feed the flock of God” as were the other leaders to do that also.

Why did he tell Peter to feed the Sheep?

I think it’s much more tender and meaningful and accurate to keep the words as the Savior used them–“Feed my sheep.”

Again if he was not the head shepherd why was HE told to feed the flock?

The Savior used that teaching technique often of speaking to Peter or to one person but actually addressing the larger group by example. John certainly knew he had a role of feeding the Savior’s sheep also. Both Peter and John knew that they had just been found fishing instead of looking after their calling to continue the work the Savior had begun.

Tell me Parker when they had finished breakfast Jesus said to Peter, Do you love me more than these? What or who was these Parker?

As I noted, the seven apostles listed had been fishing, which they evidently enjoyed doing, so Peter was being asked if he loved fishing and the work associated with fishing, more than he loved the Savior’s sheep and lambs. The Savior taught a lesson by asking the repeated questions–and He taught it to all seven of the apostles there present, but no doubt Peter got the double-barreled impact of the teaching and began applying himself in a dedicated way to the work of the ministry to which he had been called and ordained.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Rinnie…I see the same responses…in the same Spirit…the unity of faith over and over again on CAF…

And Gary…Peter, without the Holy Spirit, as John Paul II said, Peter would be merely shifting sand.

The Holy Spirit and grace keeps us from shifting as sand and giving different, ongoing changing answers.

I am praying every day for the Mormons to take a second look, a third look at how they process the events of faith…their responses are sounding more and more like rationalizations, refusing to see these rationalizations for what they are…and…from there, what is the source of these rationalizations, what is the impetus?

The impetus of these rationalizations is a reflection of what happened between God and our first parents, Adam and Eve. They had eternal life, but then they wanted to be as gods, independent of God. The sheep are seen as dependent, needing a shepherd…and in the Jewish temple in ancient worship, both sheep and goats were acceptable. But the goats are independent.

And on judgment day, the sheep and goats will be separated.

It is self-will, that all of us continue to struggle with, that separates us from God, that rebels against Christ’s church.

John Paul II states,’ In the Church—built on the rock that is Christ–Peter, the apostles, and their successors are witnesses of God crucified and risen in Christ. They are witnesses of the life that is stronger than death. They are witnesses of God who gives life because He is Love (crf. 1 Jn 4:8). They are witnesses because they saw, heard, and touched with their hands the eyes and ears of Peter, John, and many others. But Christ said to Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. John 20-29).’

Simeon is the name of the old man, before the completion of Christ’s mission.

'The old man Simeon said of Christ Himself that He would be a "sign that will be contradicted; (cf. Lk. 2:34)…

‘…confronted with such a truth–that is, confronted with the Pope – one must choose; and for many the choice is not easy…But was it so easy for Peter? Was it easy for any of his successors? Is it easy for the present Pope? To choose requires man’s initiative…’

'Christ says, ‘For Flesh and Blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father" (Mt 16:17)…this choice an act of God, who works and reveals Himself through man…the entire Creed…echoes the profound logic of Revelation.’

God’s love, Christ’ death and resurrection of life is greater than death…is greater than some concept of an apostasy that happened with the death of the last apostle.

Jesus said He would be with us always, until the end of the age.

‘Though invisible, Christ is personally present in His Church. He is likewise present in each Christian, by virtue of baptism and the other sacraments. It was usual to say, as early as the era of the Fathers, “Christianus alter Christus” (“The Christian is another Christ”), meaning by this to emphasize the dignity of the baptized and his vocation, through Christ, to holiness.’

We are not called to self-deification. We are called to holiness, our divination’s source found in the Eucharist.

‘Furthermore, Christ brings about a special presence in every priest, who, when celebrating the Eucharist or administrating the sacraments, does so in personal Christi.’

‘From this perspective, the expression “Vicar of Christ” assumes its true meaning. More than dignity, alludes to service. It emphasizes the duties of the Pope in the Church, his Petrine ministry, carried out for the good of the Church and the faithful.’

St. Gregory the Great preferred Servus servorum Dei (Servant of the Servants of God)…each bishop also Vicarius Cristi…Servant of God…

‘One duty of the Pope is to profess this truth and to render it present to the Church in Rome as well as to the entire Church, to all humanity, and to the whole world.’
John Paul II, ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’.

God’s love, Christ’s Body and Blood transcends any apostasy…He will be with us forever!!!

 

[ParkerD]

What I meant to say is if Christ was not talking to Peter why did Peter answer him 3 times. Why did not all of the Apostles answer Christ?

They would have been reverently listening to what the Savior was telling Peter and telling them all.

Christ is the [Good Shepherd] agreed, and Christ holds the keys to the kingdom agreed. BUt Christ gave that authority to Peter when he turned them over to Peter. CHrist gave Peter authority when he said to YOU I give the keys to the Kingdom. CHrist made Peter the Chief Apostle when he told him to “feed my sheep”.

I understand that indeed Peter was the leading apostle among the twelve, but the others had authority to bind and loose as did Peter, and the others had a role of feeding “my sheep” just as Peter did.

You must read the scripture Parker, who was present when Jesus was talking? All of the Apostles? There you will find your answer.

Seven of them were present, including James and John who had been with Peter and the Savior on the Mount of Transfiguration, and who also thus had a special endowment of leadership among the twelve.

 

[SteveVH]

Rinnie,

Of course he wasn’t the only leader.

The twelve (eleven and then twelve again and so forth) apostles, and we can assume the leader of the Seventy also, and the leader of those they all were leaders of.

He was indeed the first called apostle and showed that he had the leadership role among the apostles.

He asked Peter to “feed my sheep”. “Feed my lambs.” But this did not change the roles–Christ is the Good Shepherd, and Peter was an “overseer” and a “shepherd of Israel” and was to “feed the flock of God” as were the other leaders to do that also.

I think it’s much more tender and meaningful and accurate to keep the words as the Savior used them–“Feed my sheep.”

The Savior used that teaching technique often of speaking to Peter or to one person but actually addressing the larger group by example. John certainly knew he had a role of feeding the Savior’s sheep also. Both Peter and John knew that they had just been found fishing instead of looking after their calling to continue the work the Savior had begun.

As I noted, the seven apostles listed had been fishing, which they evidently enjoyed doing, so Peter was being asked if he loved fishing and the work associated with fishing, more than he loved the Savior’s sheep and lambs. The Savior taught a lesson by asking the repeated questions–and He taught it to all seven of the apostles there present, but no doubt Peter got the double-barreled impact of the teaching and began applying himself in a dedicated way to the work of the ministry to which he had been called and ordained.

The Church is Christ’s presence on earth. We are the Body of Christ and Peter and his successors were given the role of “Shepherd”, acting in Christ’s place. Of course, we understand that Christ is the Good Shepherd. Being the Good Shepherd, Jesus certainly had the authority to hand this on to the leader of His Church. Ultimately, it is Christ, acting through His appointed leader, who is the Good Shepherd.

Who feeds sheep but a shepherd? He must lead them from pasture to pasture or they will die of starvation. Christ told Peter, three times (this is significant) to feed His sheep. To say that Christ was speaking in generalities is nothing more than denying the reality of what Christ was saying. When this is considered along with Peter’s reception of the “keys to the kingdom”, Peter’s special role is undeniable. He said these words to no one else.