Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

[Bookcat]

There is no such sin. The sin is to not go to Mass. The Examen doesn’t ask “Did you make a decision not to go to Mass and then changed your mind?” No. It only asks, “Did you attend Mass on Sunday and on every Holy Day of Obligation?” It makes no allusion to what you may or may not have been thinking about.

No in this case the sin is as I noted.

Priest: What sin do you think you committed?

I was completely explicit…your difficulty is that you think there are not other sins of thought…even of deliberate choice…other than lust or anger…it extends to ALL matters.

 

[jmcrae]

Your are incorrect…

No, I’m not.

Just go read works of Catholic Moral Theology,

Apparently, they are written by very stupid people with too many degrees and not enough brains who are trying to incite an epidemic of scrupulosity - no thanks!!

 

[Bookcat]

So I did not commit a mortal sin when I chose to murder my wife…with full knowledge and c complete consent? And never actually did it for fear of prison etc??

So I did not commit a mortal sin when I chose to steal 100,000 from my work…I decide with full knowledge and complete consent? And never actually did it for fear of prison etc??

???

A person can commit a mortal sin in thought or desire …if it is a grave matter …interiorly…it does not have to be acted on.

IF and that is an important word…such is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

Really this goes for ANY MATTER …not just lust or anger. No action needs to happen externally.

Look this is what one finds in texts of Catholic Moral Theology and Theological Courses on Moral Theology. I am not making things up here. Sins of thought or desire can be committed in any matters…they are not limited.

 

[jmcrae]

I was completely explicit…your difficulty is that you think there are not other sins of thought…even of deliberate choice

The choice isn’t made until the action is taken (or not taken). No action (or non-action), no choice made, and no sin.

 

[Bookcat]

As I noted…this is just simply Catholic Theology …as it has been …

One could refer to various Moral Theology texts on this. Older ones …newer ones…ones from a Hundred years ago…or just a few…

Here is an example:

From the book: “Our Moral Life in Christ” a Basic Course on Moral Theology By Fr James Socias and (Fr?) Aurelio Fernandez with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat in 1997…

1997 Midwest Theological Forum and Scepter Publisher (who do the Navarre) (Actually this text is now in a new format in the series that Dr. Scott Hahn’s work on Understanding Scripture is in…for the Moral Theology text.

Forward by Fr. Augustine Di Noia O.P. NCCB Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices and recommendations from well known Fr. Romasus Cessario OP (Professor of Systematic Theology), Dr. William E. May (Professor of Moral Theology ath the John Paul II institute in DC …and member of the International Theological Commission (that advises the Pope…) and Russel Shaw …

Ok …so very very recommended Moral Theology Text.

So here is what it says (I will underline a couple things etc…but read the whole…)

Regarding Sins which are Internal:

"*Internal sin * is found in thought or desire. Hence, evil thoughts, daydreaming, desires and memories could be mortal sins which need to be confessed. Such sins are found in every matter, and not just in sexual matters.

Some find it hard to admit that man can sin in thought or desire, without sinning in action (Cf Chapter II). Internal sins are clearly condemned by Jesus (Cf. Mk 7:14-23, Mt 5:27-29)." Pg 139

End of quote.

This is just one example. But it addressed your difficulties explicitly.

Again internal mortal sins can happen in just thought or desire…without any action. And are found in “every matter”…not just sexual matters!

Not pulling this from a hat.

 

[Bookcat]

As I have noted before…I want to add for those out there with scruples or scrupulosity or even OCD…

…that…a mortal sin one needs grave matter, full knowledge and complete consent in this as in anything for mortal sin.

All sorts of thoughts can happen to one…all sorts of temptations…“feelings”…desires…

It can happen that all sorts of proposals come to the mind…and attractions…

but such does not mean one has committed even a small sin.

On of course should not consent…but also not fret too much…rather simply do not consent and turn ones mind to something else.

(this goes for everyone…)

One must always distinguish between temptation (etc) and sin. I know it can be difficult for those in your boat sometimes to do such but it is important. Do not let the theological discussion in this thread to make you scruple. Do not scruple. Have a regular confessor who can guide you… For you can be in a very different boat than another. He can give you good principles etc for you to follow…

Those with scruples then can learn what is scruple and what is not. They can learn to ignore the barking dog and hissing goose…

I just did not want to leave this thread with out bringing this point up again for many can scruple in this area.

Also these links too my be of help:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7164250&postcount=22

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7298181&postcount=50

Live in Christ!

 

[Pug]

When you got to Monday morning without having been to Mass on Sunday, then you “missed Mass on Sunday.” As long as you could still potentially go, you could have changed your mind - in which case, no sin would exist. Not sure why that’s so hard to grasp.

Because I locate sin in the will, in the heart. To sin is to set my will against the eternal law, against what is good. If I were to die before I finished whatever plan I had set upon, as far as I know my heart would still be full of whatever made me choose that way, unless I were to change my mind first.

Again - it was not what you were thinking that was the actual sin. Your sin didn’t take place at a specific time of day. The sin was a sin of omission - the sin of not going to Mass. It took place when you didn’t go to Mass, which was not at any specific time (since you had a number of choices of times).

It is only an actual sin of omission if in addition to not going to mass I also chose not to go, or at least choose to do something else instead. My experience with choices is that frequently I recognize a time when I have stopped waffling and have made up my mind. I don’t think the “choices of times” is the determining factor, since I rarely experience making any kind of choice about these on the morning of mass as the hours tick by. If I waffled or postponed all morning about mass, that is a horse of a different color.

Perhaps you don’t choose the way I do. Perhaps you never make a choice until the last moment before you carry it out. My experience is that I sometimes make choices/plans and then without any further conscious choices proceed to carry them out, unless something intervenes. There can be a fair time gap between the choice and the carrying out, for me. With age, this gap is decreasing.

 

[ChildOfTheLight]

Can I join in?

I’m no theologian, but I’d like to offer my views.

Jesus told us that the ten commandments basically come down to big ones; Love the Lord, Love your neighbor.

Now we choose to love, don’t we? People have attractions they don’t desire (don’t confuse crushes and affections for love), but love, true love requires making sacrifices and truly caring about the other person. No one can love against their will. Please, correct me if I’m wrong.

So…If I don’t go to mass, I offend Jesus. If I make a clear, concise decision that I intend to follow through on to not go to mass, well I’ve chosen not to love Jesus haven’t I? Jesus is inviting Me to worship. He sacrifices Himself for me at each Mass and I reject His invitation for a selfish reason.

Now, is my choice a mortal sin? Now one could argue that if I turned around and went to mass, I repented and loved Jesus, and I’ve done nothing wrong, but this was no temptation to not love Jesus, this was a CHOSEN, DELIBERATE rejection of His love. Wait… isn’t that the definition of a mortal sin?

“You love Jesus through going or not going to mass” So I do… in that act. But I still sinned against His Commandment to love the Lord.

We love in our hearts, and show it through actions. We cannot act without love, but we can love without action. Actions are ways of showing our love which is why some actions are mortal sins. Obviously, if I follow rough on my intention not to go to mass, I have not loved Him. But I can not love without action too. I have still broken the connection of love between me and Him. Saying I don’t need reconciliation for that if I later decide to love Him and go to mass is like saying someone confronted with lustful thoughts that gave in one time does not need reconciliation if, when confronted with the same temptations the next time, they didn’t sin. Two separate choices, two separate sins.

Surely you don’t think unloving thoughts towards Jesus are okay as long as you don’t act on them. Again, this is not a random thought, it is not a temptation, it’s “I won’t do what Jesus wants me to do”.

The story of the field is one of repentance, not avoiding sin in my opinion, but hey, I could be wrong.

Again, not a theologian.

Thanks, CotL

 

[fbl9]

Can I join in?

I’m no theologian, but I’d like to offer my views.

Jesus told us that the ten commandments basically come down to big ones; Love the Lord, Love your neighbor.

Now we choose to love, don’t we? People have attractions they don’t desire (don’t confuse crushes and affections for love), but love, true love requires making sacrifices and truly caring about the other person. No one can love against their will. Please, correct me if I’m wrong.

So…If I don’t go to mass, I offend Jesus. If I make a clear, concise decision that I intend to follow through on to not go to mass, well I’ve chosen not to love Jesus haven’t I? Jesus is inviting Me to worship. He sacrifices Himself at each mass for me. and I reject His invitation for a selfish reason.

Now, is my choice a mortal sin? Now one could argue that if I turned around and went to mass, I repented and loved Jesus, and I’ve done nothing wrong, but this was no temptation to not love Jesus, this was a CHOSEN, DELIBERATE rejection of His love. Wait… isn’t that the definition of a mortal sin?

“You love Jesus through going or not going to mass” So I do… in that act. But I still sinned against His Commandment to love the Lord.

We love in our hearts, and show it through actions. We cannot act without love, but we can love without action. Actions are ways of showing our love which is why some actions are mortal sins. Obviously, if I follow rough on my intention not to go to mass, I have not loved Him. But I can not love without action too. I have still broken the connection of love between me and Him. Saying I don’t need reconciliation for that if I later decide to love Him and go to mass is like saying someone confronted with lustful thoughts that gave in one time does not need reconciliation if, when confronted with the same temptations the next time, they didn’t sin. Two separate choices, two separate sins.

Surely you don’t think unloving thoughts towards Jesus are okay as long as you don’t act on them. Again, this is not a random thought, it is not a temptation, it’s “I won’t do what Jesus wants me to do”.

The story of the field is one of repentance, not avoiding sin in my opinion, but hey, I could be wrong.

Again, not a theologian.

Thanks, CotL

Good post,except the part that i bolded. Our Lord is not sacrificed at each Mass. The Eucharistic celebration is a **re-representation **of His sacrifice, we are offering up His sacrifice.

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps you don’t choose the way I do. Perhaps you never make a choice until the last moment before you carry it out.

Well - I know what my choice was, when I see what I am doing. Sometimes, it’s different than what I had thought I was going to choose, or what I was hoping to have chosen. My mind has so many thoughts and ideas running through it all at the same time, that I really don’t know what my decision was, until I observe myself in action.

 

[Pug]

Well - I know what my choice was, when I see what I am doing. Sometimes, it’s different than what I had thought I was going to choose, or what I was hoping to have chosen. My mind has so many thoughts and ideas running through it all at the same time, that I really don’t know what my decision was, until I observe myself in action.

Life can be like that! It is on account of those times when I have experiences of choice like you describe that sometimes I ironically feel that my free will is something over which I have no control.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Can I join in?

I’m no theologian, but I’d like to offer my views.

Jesus told us that the ten commandments basically come down to big ones; Love the Lord, Love your neighbor.

Now we choose to love, don’t we? People have attractions they don’t desire (don’t confuse crushes and affections for love), but love, true love requires making sacrifices and truly caring about the other person. No one can love against their will. Please, correct me if I’m wrong.

So…If I don’t go to mass, I offend Jesus. If I make a clear, concise decision that I intend to follow through on to not go to mass, well I’ve chosen not to love Jesus haven’t I? Jesus is inviting Me to worship. He sacrifices Himself for me at each Mass and I reject His invitation for a selfish reason.

Now, is my choice a mortal sin? Now one could argue that if I turned around and went to mass, I repented and loved Jesus, and I’ve done nothing wrong, but this was no temptation to not love Jesus, this was a CHOSEN, DELIBERATE rejection of His love. Wait… isn’t that the definition of a mortal sin?

“You love Jesus through going or not going to mass” So I do… in that act. But I still sinned against His Commandment to love the Lord.

We love in our hearts, and show it through actions. We cannot act without love, but we can love without action. Actions are ways of showing our love which is why some actions are mortal sins. Obviously, if I follow rough on my intention not to go to mass, I have not loved Him. But I can not love without action too. I have still broken the connection of love between me and Him. Saying I don’t need reconciliation for that if I later decide to love Him and go to mass is like saying someone confronted with lustful thoughts that gave in one time does not need reconciliation if, when confronted with the same temptations the next time, they didn’t sin. Two separate choices, two separate sins.

Surely you don’t think unloving thoughts towards Jesus are okay as long as you don’t act on them. Again, this is not a random thought, it is not a temptation, it’s “I won’t do what Jesus wants me to do”.

The story of the field is one of repentance, not avoiding sin in my opinion, but hey, I could be wrong.

Again, not a theologian.

Thanks, CotL

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Choosing in your mind not to go to Mass is not choosing not to love Jesus. If my husband invited me to dinner and I thought “I’m so tired tonight. I really don’t feel like getting ready and going out”, but I change my mind later and go anyway, have I CHOSEN not to love my husband? Of course not. I was just tired and didn’t feel like going out.

I don’t understand why people get all dramatic and say things like “You’re rejecting God’s love” or “You are choosing not to love God”.

 

[ChildOfTheLight]

Thoughtfulone, I agree that you haven’t chosen not to love your husband here, because like we have good reasons to miss mass (illness, or so tired you feel ill) we have reasons for missing dinner dates as well. You cannot physically bring yourself to go out. That’s one thing, choosing to not go because you want to do something else means you are putting that thing ahead of what your husband has planned out of his love for you, is another.

Also, God is unlike other being, so comparing your relationship with Him to your relationship with your husband doesn’t always work. We can use these relationships to draw some comparisons with our relationship with God, but the comparisons will always be imperfect. Jesus tells us that our relationship with Him comes before ALL else. Everything. There are things that are acceptable excuses to use with your husband (even though you should love him and respect him), that are not acceptable to use on Jesus.

Consider this, Jesus says we should celebrate mass in memory of (and out of love for) Him. If your husband asked you out to dinner, and said “I give you the choice of going or not, but please come out of love for me”, I think you would give it your all to be there.

God is all-knowing, and so our thought of no is just as offensive as our words of no, and if we are asked to do something out of love for someone, and we say no for an unworthy reason, we must apologize for that, and repair a damaged relationship.

fbl9, thank you for correcting me. I had just woken up before writing that post and was not my most alert.

Thanks,

CotL

 

[fbl9]

fbl9, thank you for correcting me. I had just woken up before writing that post and was not my most alert.

Thanks,

CotL

welcome, didn’t want anybody to think that Christ was re-sacrificed during mass,

 

[Bookcat]

A person can commit a mortal sin…in thought, word, deed or omission…

But it requires all three things of course…grave matter…full knowledge…and deliberate consent.

Some examples of grave matter:

Murder
Choosing to Miss Sunday Mass (without excusing reason)
Adultery
Various Sins against Catholic Faith
Lust
Lying under oath in court
Serious detraction
Deny the Faith
Abortion
Contraception
Rejecting that Jesus is the Son of God
Unbelief
Euthanasia
Drunkeness (to the point of loss of reason)
etc etc

But one needs not only grave matter…one needs full knowledge and deliberate consent…

for example a person may not know that there is a grave obligation to go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation…they just may never have heard such.

Or they may have temptation…such are not to be confused with sins.

Or one may be truely and honestly confused…and think that one can “hold that abortion is ok” and still be living as a Catholic…due to some very real lack in their Catholic formation…and faced with some Catholics who are not living and holding what the Church holds…

It is possible that some simply are very very uninformed.

(difficult for us to understand in certain things… for us who are constantly aware of what the Church teaches…but it is possible…though I still think very difficult in the case of abortion…given the reality of it…but then again some honesty are convinced by society that such is not a child yet… )

They may not realize that there is a difference between honest “opinions” in the Church where one can have varied judgments as to say if “this war” is just …

and the teachings of the Church…which are of course not matters for opinion.

See Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter …where he talks of worthiness to present oneself for Holy Communion…and gives a couple of examples:

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

(ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfworthycom.htm)

It can be the case that a person may commit something that is “grave matter” but with out realizing it…not even knowing that there is any question! Like they miss Mass without realizing that such is grave and thus subjectively not commit a mortal sin.

Of course we all need to inform our consciences with the Teachings of the Catholic Church and of course to live those teachings

But some in our society may not be committing mortal sins…even though they do things that are grave matter internally or externally…due to not knowing they are grave or even knowing they should know…(we may never know if they are or are not)

(but yes there is natural moral law…so some things are more evident than others…)

Of course God is the one who will judge the person…not us. …

On our part we seek to propose Christ to them …

… and perhaps to help them come to understand why such and such is wrong…by brotherly correction …by walking along side of them…with love and understanding…and prayer etc…

and in even when things are not yet fully embraced yet…encouraging them …to seek more and more his grace…go to Mass etc (even if they can not go to Communion) to pray as Christians seeking to know Christ better and his teachings …to bring their Children up in the Faith if they are already Catholic…to read Scripture…the Catechism…to seek the answers…etc

In any case we need to propose that the great yes…which while it involves certain no’s …is well worth it for in Christ is* true life*.

and live it ourselves…

 

[steve_b]

True, but full knowledge is required for the sin to be mortal. I have not been able to find a clear official definition of “full knowledge”. It seems to me that “full knowledge” implies much more than “read it in passing on an internet forum.” If you know of an official definition of full knowledge in this context, I would love to see it.

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

IOW,

• mortal sin is already defined as mortal, and people know it.
• one consents to comit it.

i.e. missing mass on purpose on Sunday and holy day of obligation is a mortal sin.

Therefore, as the CCC says,

• feigned ignorance is no excuse.
• One’s disagreement with whether a sin is mortal or not, is no excuse.

NE:

They certainly can - see invincible ignorance. Condemnation for what amounts to honest mistakes is what would be contrary to God’s justice.

This isn’t about honest mistakes.

Invincable ignorance regarding sin, is more in line with someone who has a very low I.Q. and just doesn’t have the capacity to understand much. Everyone else, can certainly grasp the concept of sin and particularly serious sin vs non serious sin.

 

[jmcrae]

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

IOW,

• mortal sin is already defined as mortal, and people know it.
• one consents to comit it.

i.e. missing mass on purpose on Sunday and holy day of obligation is a mortal sin.

Therefore, as the CCC says,

• feigned ignorance is no excuse.
• One’s disagreement with whether a sin is mortal or not, is no excuse.

This isn’t about honest mistakes.

Invincable ignorance regarding sin, is more in line with someone who has a very low I.Q. and just doesn’t have the capacity to understand much. Everyone else, can certainly grasp the concept of sin and particularly serious sin vs non serious sin.

Right - and, thinking of committing a sin, but then not committing the sin, is not, itself, a sin - it’s just a thought, which was not acted upon. (No sin took place; therefore, no sin existed.)

 

[Bookcat]

Right - and, thinking of committing a sin, but then not committing the sin, is not, itself, a sin - it’s just a thought, which was not acted upon. (No sin took place; therefore, no sin existed.)

It “can be” not a sin…that is called a temptation.

But if (as one example) a person with full knowledge and complete consent chooses not to go to Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without excusing reason) …decides I am not going to go…such by definition is a mortal sin.

Even if they later repent of that choice and make another one and go. (they will end up fulfilling their Sunday obligation…but still have the other mortal sin to confess).

 

[Thoughtfulone]

It “can be” not a sin…that is called a temptation.

But if (as one example) a person with full knowledge and complete consent chooses not to go to Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without excusing reason) …decides I am not going to go…such by definition is a mortal sin.

Even if they later repent of that choice and make another one and go. (they will end up fulfilling their Sunday obligation…but still have the other mortal sin to confess).

So then if they do not go to mass, are you saying that the person has committed 2 mortal sins? The DECISION not to go and the ACT of not going? Boy, they’re really starting to pile up…

 

[jmcrae]

So then if they do not go to mass, are you saying that the person has committed 2 mortal sins? The DECISION not to go and the ACT of not going? Boy, they’re really starting to pile up…

Yes, they sure are!

Makes you wonder why Jesus bothered with the actual Cross - He could have just “decided” that He was dying for our sins, and then changed His mind later, and it would have been the same thing as actually doing it.