Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church

[Serap]

All Catholics are obliged to give assent to the teaching of the Church, but many Catholics throughout history have struggled to do so in good faith. If you understand the Church’s teachings and you have thought and prayed on the Church’s teaching and still believe that the Church’s teaching is wrong, that is a good faith disagreement. As opposed to simply deciding not to follow the teaching because you don’t want to follow it. Some Catholics that use birth control are doing the latter - simply disobeying. But many have a good faith disagreement with the Church’s teaching in this area.

thanks for this…very good clarification!!!

 

[Serap]

Don’t jump all over me, but I am friends with a few guys that will become priests this June. They are all around age 29, 30, and ALL of them think that birth control is ok and that the church will eventually change it’s stance.

I asked them yesterday actually and that’s what they told me.

Ok…I’m going to take cover now :hey_bud:

 

[Rascalking]

Don’t jump all over me, but I am friends with a few guys that will become priests this June. They are all around age 29, 30, and ALL of them think that birth control is ok and that the church will eventually change it’s stance.

I asked them yesterday actually and that’s what they told me.

Ok…I’m going to take cover now :hey_bud:

Serap! How dare you! For shame! For shame! To hell with thee!

 

[revert_jen]

There is a difference between sinning and dissent. For example somebody may commit murder, tell a lie, commit a sin of lust, yet not deny (after the fact) that it was a sinful behavior or that they disagree with the Church and that it doesn’t apply to them. So yes we are all sinners, but not all dissenters. We sin, we go to confession and try not to sin again.

Amen!

Nobody, including the Pope, follows the teachings of the Church 100% of the time. There are lots of us out there that are obedient to the Church in her judgement of what is a sin (yes, 100%), but just keep sinning because, well, we are sinners.

As for the statistics, I frankly didn’t believe them until I saw that they were qualified down to the point where they were nearly meaningless. 98% of sexually active Catholic women have ever used any form of birth control at all? Yeah, I can probably buy that. Any woman who has had sex where a condom was used even once in her life fits into this category.

I fit into this category myself. I “went through a form of marriage” outside the Church, and we used condoms in our “marriage” (before the divorce and the declaration of lack of form or whatever it was called). That isn’t the same as saying I would do the same now, were I to get sacramentally married. Plus, I would show up as a weekly church-goer who has used contraception, even though the weekly (Catholic) church-going and the contraception never happened at the same time in my life.

Basically, they designed the questionnaire to show what they wanted to show. It’s not really that hard to do. They wanted a particular headline and they got it.

And survey data is not particularly scientifically relevant anyway, because people do lie, forget, misremember, and misunderstand. The fact that you can’t think of a reason why someone would lie in a particular direction doesn’t mean that nobody did it.

–Jen

 

[rotlex]

So nice for you to call shots out on me on a forum eh? How exactly is it that you say you know me on the forums by saying I need a reality check my friend? How exactly do you get the nerve to sit there typing on keyboard and tell me I don’t do things for myself etc. Whatever, believe what you want then. I guess it makes you feel good to look all pious on the forums? It’s amazing how rude people can be online and think nothing of it. I guess I’m an idiot cult Catholic who can’t do anything for myself according to you on a forum?

Sorry you have issues man. I’ll pray for you. Seriously. Don’t take things so personally on a web forum. And don’t try to think you can judge someone’s intent or meaning through typed words.

You may want to look at your original reply to me. I might consider that rude myself. The type of attitude you are saying I have toward you, is how I feel WAY to many people on these forums are toward everyone. My intent was not to personally attack you, but you obviously feel like I did, so there is not much I can do about it.

Take care, and try not to blow a gasket.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Don’t jump all over me, but I am friends with a few guys that will become priests this June. They are all around age 29, 30, and ALL of them think that birth control is ok and that the church will eventually change it’s stance.

I asked them yesterday actually and that’s what they told me.

Ok…I’m going to take cover now :hey_bud:

Don’t take cover…but I find that absolutely terrible.

I actually think that what these seminarians said reeks of scandal…

BTW my former confessor Is about 35 and he told me it was a mortal sin.

Sigh, how discouraging is it when you try to be faithful, and read that future priests think faithfulness is optional.

 

[whm]

They are all around age 29, 30, and ALL of them think that birth control is ok and that the church will eventually change it’s stance.:

The Church can’t change its teaching on faith and morals.

 

[LilyM]

The Church can’t change its teaching on faith and morals.

Nor should it! Imagine Jesus changing His teaching on the Eucharist in John Ch 6 simply because people found it too hard and many walked away.

Imagine someone having the nerve to say to Him ‘sorry, Lord, but this ‘no coveting’ rule is a bit out of date, isn’t it? After all, the world has changed, this is 2011, we’re now surrounded by people absolutely flaunting everything about themselves - their bodies, their wealth, their success and whatnot. Surely under these circumstances you can’t STILL be expecting us to never, ever covet the things others have that they shove in our faces?’

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Amen!

Nobody, including the Pope, follows the teachings of the Church 100% of the time. There are lots of us out there that are obedient to the Church in her judgement of what is a sin (yes, 100%), but just keep sinning because, well, we are sinners.

As for the statistics, I frankly didn’t believe them until I saw that they were qualified down to the point where they were nearly meaningless. 98% of sexually active Catholic women have ever used any form of birth control at all? Yeah, I can probably buy that. Any woman who has had sex where a condom was used even once in her life fits into this category.

I fit into this category myself. I “went through a form of marriage” outside the Church, and we used condoms in our “marriage” (before the divorce and the declaration of lack of form or whatever it was called). That isn’t the same as saying I would do the same now, were I to get sacramentally married. Plus, I would show up as a weekly church-goer who has used contraception, even though the weekly (Catholic) church-going and the contraception never happened at the same time in my life.Basically, they designed the questionnaire to show what they wanted to show. It’s not really that hard to do. They wanted a particular headline and they got it.

And survey data is not particularly scientifically relevant anyway, because people do lie, forget, misremember, and misunderstand. The fact that you can’t think of a reason why someone would lie in a particular direction doesn’t mean that nobody did it.

–Jen

Gosh me too.

When we first were married never went to church, not even Christmas or Easter. We used ABC though.

 

[rotlex]

There is a difference between sinning and dissent. For example somebody may commit murder, tell a lie, commit a sin of lust, yet not deny (after the fact) that it was a sinful behavior or that they disagree with the Church and that it doesn’t apply to them. So yes we are all sinners, but not all dissenters. We sin, we go to confession and try not to sin again.

This, I do for sure. (Regarding confession, and an attempt to not sin again). However, the contraception issue is huge, I’m sure not just for me, but for a lot of “good” Catholics out there. What is one to seriously do when they simply know they will continue to repeat said sin. Seriously. Repeat it for a number of reasons, not the least of which is they truly do not believe that it is sin. Leave the Church? Hardly, I am pretty much in agreement with all the teachings of the Catholic Church, except this one. Why? To be honest, I simply do not think the Church is right on the issue.

I know the Church teaches and approves of NFP. I would use it only as contraception. Yes, I admit that, so really, what’s the difference? Should I kid myself that it’s OK now as I’m sure others do? Should I leave the Church and join a denomination that is OK with non abortive contraception? Really, I have no idea. And to be honest, speaking with anyone outside of these forums, yields very different responses. Yes, even responses from priests themselves.

I’ll probably cut out of this thread at this point, as I’ve probably offended someone, and really don’t mean to do that.

Take care all, and God bless.

 

[Rascalking]

Don’t take cover…but I find that absolutely terrible.

I actually think that what these seminarians said reeks of scandal…

BTW my former confessor Is about 35 and he told me it was a mortal sin.

Sigh, how discouraging is it when you try to be faithful, and read that future priests think faithfulness is optional.

Well, maybe Serap was onto something. Maybe there might be some change going on over that in the future. I don’t know, has the Catholic church ever changed on something like that? Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t predict the future. I’ve always thought this “NFP/non-abortive” birth control issue was overrated. What I mean is-I don’ t think it’s fundamental to faith.

Everyone can just throw the grenades on me! I’ll cover you Serap!

 

[Serap]

Well, maybe Serap was onto something. Maybe there might be some change going on over that in the future. I don’t know, has the Catholic church ever changed on something like that? Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t predict the future. I’ve always thought this “NFP/non-abortive” birth control issue was overrated. What I mean is-I don’ t think it’s fundamental to faith.

Everyone can just throw the grenades on me! I’ll cover you Serap!

LOL…it’s very controversial. I do not know nor do I have the answers.

But, 98% of Catholics may be in agreement with these future priests that ABC is not intrinsicly evil and that the church must change it’s stance.

I am not stating my own opinion…I’m just objectively stating what I know.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Well, maybe Serap was onto something. Maybe there might be some change going on over that in the future. I don’t know, has the Catholic church ever changed on something like that? Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t predict the future. I’ve always thought this “NFP/non-abortive” birth control issue was overrated. What I mean is-I don’ t think it’s fundamental to faith.

Everyone can just throw the grenades on me! I’ll cover you Serap!

That’s what everybody thought about 40 years ago when Humanea Vitae came out.

This is helpful:

ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/COABPA.TXT

And from Dr. D. Von Hildebrande

Procreation and the communion of love must never deliberately be separated

That a new human being should issue from it is certainly part of the solemn grandeur of this supremely intimate union. The wonderful, divinely-appointed relationship between the mysterious procreation of a new human being and this most intimate communion of love (which by itself alone already has its full importance), illuminates the grandeur and solemnity of this union.

Thus it is that in order to preserve the reverent attitude of the spouses toward the mystery in this union, this general connection between procreation and the communion of love must always be maintained even subjectively, at least as a general possibility of this act.

It is difficult to imagine a greater lack of reverence toward God than interfering with this mystery with desecrating hands in order to frustrate this mystery. How terrible to think of man wanting to destroy this unity which God has established so mysteriously, deeming those united in the highest earthly union of love worthy to take part in His creative power. To go against God’s purposes through a desecrating interference, perhaps even thus to throw back into the void a being that God had intended to exist - what sacrilegious presumption

!

ewtn.com/library/marriage/sipmarrg.htm

 

[TMC]

Well, maybe Serap was onto something. Maybe there might be some change going on over that in the future. I don’t know, has the Catholic church ever changed on something like that? Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t predict the future. I’ve always thought this “NFP/non-abortive” birth control issue was overrated. What I mean is-I don’ t think it’s fundamental to faith.

Everyone can just throw the grenades on me! I’ll cover you Serap!

I know I will be flamed for saying this, but the Church could change this teaching. It would probably be a nuanced change, something like saying that couples have to be open to receiving the gift of new life but that each individual marital act need not be. That was considered in the 60’s but rejected by Pope Paul VI. I am not saying that faith and morals change, but the way the Church applies the underlying theology and morality to come up with practical rules about life can and does change. The Church has made similar shifts in the past and will continue do so in the future. Birth control may well be one of them.

 

[Rascalking]

I know I will be flamed for saying this, but the Church could change this teaching. It would probably be a nuanced change, something like saying that couples have to be open to receiving the gift of new life but that each individual marital act need not be. That was considered in the 60’s but rejected by Pope Paul VI. I am not saying that faith and morals change, but the way the Church applies the underlying theology and morality to come up with practical rules about life can and does change. The Church has made similar shifts in the past and will continue do so in the future. Birth control may well be one of them.

Hey now-direct all “flames” to me. I can take em. I’m tough! Grr…

 

[KostyaJMJ]

But, 98% of Catholics may be in agreement with these future priests that ABC is not intrinsicly evil and that the church must change it’s stance.

Which is why studies like this keep on coming out to help assuage guilty consciences. When everyone’s guilt, no one is guilty.

Doesn’t matter. The Church can’t possibly contradict itself now.

 

[Serap]

I know I will be flamed for saying this, but the Church could change this teaching. It would probably be a nuanced change, something like saying that couples have to be open to receiving the gift of new life but that each individual marital act need not be. That was considered in the 60’s but rejected by Pope Paul VI. I am not saying that faith and morals change, but the way the Church applies the underlying theology and morality to come up with practical rules about life can and does change. The Church has made similar shifts in the past and will continue do so in the future. Birth control may well be one of them.

we’ll see when this generation of new priests eventually become the future pope in 30 or so years.

It’s definitely interesting.

I still see how many people are very angry with Vatican II as it was a huge change for traditional Catholics. Many still wear a veil b/c they disagree with new teachings for women’s dress in church.

It is very interesting to say the least.

 

[LilyM]

LOL…it’s very controversial. I do not know nor do I have the answers.

But, 98% of Catholics may be in agreement with these future priests that ABC is not intrinsicly evil and that the church must change it’s stance.

I am not stating my own opinion…I’m just objectively stating what I know.

And what precisely is the significance of the fact that 98% of Catholics may be in agreement? Does morality or correctness or any other worthwhile thing come through majority approval of a particular idea?

 

[Serap]

And what precisely is the significance of the fact that 98% of Catholics may be in agreement? Does morality or correctness or any other worthwhile thing come through majority approval of a particular idea?

don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[TMC]

And what precisely is the significance of the fact that 98% of Catholics may be in agreement? Does morality or correctness or any other worthwhile thing come through majority approval of a particular idea?

The Church teaches that it is possible, it is called sensus fidelium.