Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church

[Mary_Gail_36]

then they should NOT avoid during fertile time to really allow God into the relationship.

Ill use myself as an example. We have serious reasons to avoid, due to various health issues.

When we avoid intimacy, we put off our immediate needs for the greater good of my health,the health(and life) of a possible baby that would be conceived, the health and stability of our family. The fact that we could likely lose a baby due to miscarriage and/or severe prematurity is a sobering reality.

My fertility is not a disease to be cured. By avoiding intimacy my husband is subtly saying to me, “your health, and the possible baby’s health are more important to me than being intimate with you at this point.”

Here’s a secret, if you research Margaret Sanger, she thought she was helping the poor. Some underprivileged women had husbands who refused to abstain, irrespective of the wife’s physical and or emotional state. She gave them contraceptives to use in secret…so the husband could further treat the wife as a “sex object” but without having to provide for the kids and for her.

 

[1holycatholic]

On what do you base this “exception”, what of St. Peter, who was married and gave up relations? What of all the Married Bishops and Clergy of the early church, who did the same… Are you suggesting what they did was sinful? Or perhaps, are we willing to admit that there are in fact, exactly as your source suggests, very pious reasons to even give up sexuality and child baring completely.

And if we can finally admit this, based upon the very example of the Fathers of the Church, as well as the example of the Blessed Virgin, why can we then not admit that there are very good and pious reasons to use NFP to regulate births.

One situation is one I brought up personally, my wife had horrible preeclampsia in the first pregnancy, we need to give her body time to recover. There are other reasons, reasons even to set limits on the number of children you even bring into the world as the CCC suggests. How many children can you truely support materially and emotionally. It is not good to bring more children into the world, only to suffer being depraved basic human needs, for no reason other than a misguided belief that we are nothing but baby making machines.

Paragraphs 2366 & 2399 make this clear, very clear. In this context, you are not regulating births for selfish reasons… In this context, you are acheiving a genuine good.

So, I stand by everything I’ve said. And I thank you, for providing even more supporting material directly into the discussion.

Current Church law binds all clerics to perpetual continence with no exceptions, even married permanent deacons. This is in accordance with the practice of the early Church. That doesn’t mean that all married couples are bound to perpetual continence.

A medical problem would be a just reason to space out pregnancies, having a new minivan every few years would not. When I was growing up there were many Catholic families that had many children. These families didn’t have any more money than others, but they were wealthy with God’s gift of children.

The realities behind large families

 

[crazzeto]

Current Church law binds all clerics to perpetual continence with no exceptions, even married permanent deacons. This is in accordance with the practice of the early Church. That doesn’t mean that all married couples are bound to perpetual continence.

A medical problem would be a just reason to space out pregnancies, having a new minivan every few years would not. When I was growing up there were many Catholic families that had many children. These families didn’t have any more money than others, but they were wealthy with God’s gift of children.

The realities behind large families

This doesn’t mean all other married couples are excluded from this as well, thanks again for providing more supporting materials.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Here’s a secret, if you research Margaret Sanger, she thought she was helping the poor. Some underprivileged women had husbands who refused to abstain, irrespective of the wife’s physical and or emotional state. She gave them contraceptives to use in secret…so the husband could further treat the wife as a “sex object” but without having to provide for the kids and for her.

I’m not sure how NFP will stop a man from treating his wife like a sex object. The only difference is that with NFP and an unwilling spouse the woman will have children until it either kills her or she mentally breaks down.

 

[wanner47]

I’m not sure how NFP will stop a man from treating his wife like a sex object. The only difference is that with NFP and an unwilling spouse the woman will have children until it either kills her or she mentally breaks down.

If a woman is being* raped by her spouse*, the answer is not contraception that enables the rape to continue – the answer is for her to get out of that situation, FAST!!!

 

[1holycatholic]

This doesn’t mean all other married couples are excluded from this as well, thanks again for providing more supporting materials.

No it doesn’t. My parish is one of, if not the most affluent parish in the diocese. There aren’t many families with more than two children attending Mass. So it’s not finances that are limiting the size of families. There is another parish in the diocese that I attend occasionally that has no residential area associated with it. They are known for their reverent liturgies and the ready availability of confession before every Mass. They draw faithful Catholics from around the city from all income groups. The average income in this parish is far lower than my parish, yet there are many large families in attendance. One set of parishioners is following the intent of Catechism, the other not so much.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

If a woman is being* raped by her spouse*, the answer is not contraception that enables the rape to continue – the answer is for her to get out of that situation, FAST!!!

I am hesitant to call it rape since the woman consents, but at the same time the woman consents only because she doesn’t feel she has the power to say no. Many may also consent after finally being worn down with constant whining.

 

[wanner47]

I am hesitant to call it rape since the woman consents, but at the same time** the woman consents only because she doesn’t feel she has the power to say no**. Many may also consent after finally being worn down with constant whining.

Coerced sex is just as bad as rape, and if a woman finds herself in that situation she needs to get out of it.

 

[crazzeto]

No it doesn’t. My parish is one of, if not the most affluent parish in the diocese. There aren’t many families with more than two children attending Mass. So it’s not finances that are limiting the size of families. There is another parish in the diocese that I attend occasionally that has no residential area associated with it. They are known for their reverent liturgies and the ready availability of confession before every Mass. They draw faithful Catholics from around the city from all income groups. The average income in this parish is far lower than my parish, yet there are many large families in attendance. One set of parishioners is following the intent of Catechism, the other not so much.

No one is saying there aren’t selfish reasons not to have children 1holycatholic… What we are rightly saying is that:

1. Marriage doesn’t make women baby making machines, period
2. There are some very legitimate reasons, not just economic, to limit family sizes
3. Regulation of births is not fundamentally evil.

 

[wanner47]

No it doesn’t. My parish is one of, if not the most affluent parish in the diocese. There aren’t many families with more than two children attending Mass. So it’s not finances that are limiting the size of families. There is another parish in the diocese that I attend occasionally that has no residential area associated with it. They are known for their reverent liturgies and the ready availability of confession before every Mass. They draw faithful Catholics from around the city from all income groups. The average income in this parish is far lower than my parish, yet there are many large families in attendance. One set of parishioners is following the intent of Catechism, the other not so much.

Please don’t make assumptions.

My stepsister and her husband have no kids, even though they’ve been married eight years. You know why? They’ve struggled with infertility their whole marriage and are currently trying to adopt. If you saw them at your parish, you’d assume they were contracepting.

My sister and her husband are Catholic. They are currently pregnant with their second child. My sister had four miscarriages between her oldest son and her new baby. But if they were in your parish, you’d assume they were contracepting between their son and this new baby.

You can’t know what couples are struggling with so PLEASE don’t make unfounded judgements. We are called to judge justly, not rashly.

 

[crazzeto]

Coerced sex is just as bad as rape, and if a woman finds herself in that situation she needs to get out of it.

agreed

 

[paperwight66]

Current Church law binds all clerics to perpetual continence with no exceptions, even married permanent deacons. ]

No, this isn’t true in the case of married permanent deacons, I was told.

Do you have a source?

 

[1holycatholic]

Please don’t make assumptions.

My stepsister and her husband have no kids, even though they’ve been married eight years. You know why? They’ve struggled with infertility their whole marriage and are currently trying to adopt. If you saw them at your parish, you’d assume they were contracepting.

My sister and her husband are Catholic. They are currently pregnant with their second child. My sister had four miscarriages between her oldest son and her new baby. But if they were in your parish, you’d assume they were contracepting between their son and this new baby.

You can’t know what couples are struggling with so PLEASE don’t make unfounded judgements. We are called to judge justly, not rashly.

You’re making assumptions that I’m somehow unfamiliar with infertility. I can assure you that is not the case.

There are over three thousand families in my parish. I can count the number of families at Mass with more than two children on one hand. I’m very well aware of infertility, and it doesn’t affect the overwhelming majority of married couples.

Family Size, Social Development, Selfishness and Love
…
Caritas in Veritate on Family Size

Interestingly, Pope Benedict addresses family size in his most recent encyclical, Caritas in Veritate. In fact, he identifies exceedingly small families as an obstacle to authentic human development. The relevant passage is worth quoting at length:

Morally responsible openness to life represents a rich social and economic resource. Populous nations have been able to emerge from poverty thanks not least to the size of their population and the talents of their people. On the other hand, formerly prosperous nations are presently passing through a phase of uncertainty and in some cases decline, precisely because of their falling birth rates; this has become a crucial problem for highly affluent societies. The decline in births, falling at times beneath the so-called “replacement level”, also puts a strain on social welfare systems, increases their cost, eats into savings and hence the financial resources needed for investment, reduces the availability of qualified labourers, and narrows the “brain pool” upon which nations can draw for their needs. Furthermore, smaller and at times miniscule families run the risk of impoverishing social relations, and failing to ensure effective forms of solidarity. These situations are symptomatic of scant confidence in the future and moral weariness. It is thus becoming a social and even economic necessity once more to hold up to future generations the beauty of marriage and the family, and the fact that these institutions correspond to the deepest needs and dignity of the person. In view of this, States are called to enact policies promoting the centrality and the integrity of the family founded on marriage between a man and a woman, the primary vital cell of society, and to assume responsibility for its economic and fiscal needs, while respecting its essentially relational character. (#44)I think most readers will “get” the demographic argument, the argument that a wide-ranging dearth of births causes grave problems to the survival of not only a nation’s economy but of its culture as a whole. But at the center of the Pope’s clear articulation of this argument lies an especially valuable nugget: “Furthermore, smaller and at times miniscule families run the risk of impoverishing social relations, and failing to ensure effective forms of solidarity.” In our culture and in our particular time, this is a show-stopper.

…

​

 

[happymommy]

No, this isn’t true in the case of married permanent deacons, I was told.

Do you have a source?

I was confused by that as well. I don’t think he is correct, but I don’t have the time right now to look it up.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Coerced sex is just as bad as rape, and if a woman finds herself in that situation she needs to get out of it.

Not sure how coercive it is honestly. The situations I’ve seen are simply that the woman views her husband as the head of the family and more importantly as her lord and master. She would never dream of turning him him down or voicing disagreement. I’m not as naive to think that contraception will make everything hunky-dory but I am saying that NFP will not help the situation either. And getting the woman out of the situation will only work if she is willing to leave. I’m tempted to say that women need to be empowered enough economically and socially to make their own decisions when it comes to their fertility. Other than that I am at a bit of a loss. I know that isn’t how NFP is supposed to work but that is simply what I’ve seen.

 

[1holycatholic]

No, this isn’t true in the case of married permanent deacons, I was told.

Do you have a source?

The Code of Canon Law:Can. 277 §1. Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.
Deacons are clerics. There is no exception in the current Code of Canon Law for the permanent diaconate. Canon lawyer Dr. Ed Peters has written on this recently, but I am unable to access his blog.

 

[paperwight66]

The Code of Canon Law:Can. 277 §1. Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.
Deacons are clerics. There is no exception in the current Code of Canon Law for the permanent diaconate. Canon lawyer Dr. Ed Peters has written on this recently, but I am unable to access his blog.

‘For married candidates, to live love means offering themselves to their spouses in a reciprocal belonging, in a total, faithful and indissoluble union, in the likeness of Christ’s love for his Church; at the same time it means welcoming children, loving them, educating them and showing forth to the whole Church and society the communion of the family. Today, this vocation is being hard tested by the worrying degradation of certain fundamental values and the exaltation of hedonism and a false conception of liberty. To be lived out in all its fullness, the vocation to family must be nourished by prayer, the liturgy and a daily offering of self.(83)’

This is from ‘Basic norms for the formation of Permanent Deacons’, from the Vatican’s website.

It seems clear to me that if they are to welcome children, they must be living as husbands
and wives usually do, no?

Or are you saying that they can do so while under formation, but have to give up after ordination?

 

[wanner47]

Not sure how coercive it is honestly. The situations I’ve seen are simply that the woman views her husband as the head of the family and more importantly as her lord and master. She would never dream of turning him him down or voicing disagreement. I’m not as naive to think that contraception will make everything hunky-dory but I am saying that NFP will not help the situation either. And getting the woman out of the situation will only work if she is willing to leave. I’m tempted to say that women need to be empowered enough economically and socially to make their own decisions when it comes to their fertility. Other than that I am at a bit of a loss. I know that isn’t how NFP is supposed to work but that is simply what I’ve seen.

If a woman says yes to sex because she is afraid of sustaining physical or emotional abuse if she says no, then that is definitely coercion and she needs to get out of the situation.

In the marriages in which you’ve “seen” this, did you offer to take the woman into your home until she could rectify her situation?

 

[wanner47]

You’re making assumptions that I’m somehow unfamiliar with infertility. I can assure you that is not the case.

There are over three thousand families in my parish. I can count the number of families at Mass with more than two children on one hand. I’m very well aware of infertility, and it doesn’t affect the overwhelming majority of married couples.

Be that as it may, please do not assume that they are ALL contracepting. Rates of infertility have sharply risen over the last few years and it may be more prevalent than you believe.

 

[1holycatholic]

‘For married candidates, to live love means offering themselves to their spouses in a reciprocal belonging, in a total, faithful and indissoluble union, in the likeness of Christ’s love for his Church; at the same time it means welcoming children, loving them, educating them and showing forth to the whole Church and society the communion of the family. Today, this vocation is being hard tested by the worrying degradation of certain fundamental values and the exaltation of hedonism and a false conception of liberty. To be lived out in all its fullness, the vocation to family must be nourished by prayer, the liturgy and a daily offering of self.(83)’

This is from ‘Basic norms for the formation of Permanent Deacons’, from the Vatican’s website.

It seems clear to me that if they are to welcome children, they must be living as husbands
and wives usually do, no?

Or are you saying that they can do so while under formation, but have to give up after ordination?

No, I’m simply stating how Canon Law reads.