Mother Mary

[Roblox84]

the people aren’t bowing TO the statue, the statue is there as a visual reminder as they’re praying, and they’re venerating it to show respect to Our Blessed Mother… there’s nothing wrong with devotion to Mary, or praying to Mary. She’s our Mother and she loves us, prays to God for us… there’s nothing wrong with loving her Christians always have! (until modern times, in Protestantism).

When we honour Mary, we honour her Son… there’s no competition between them at all.

God bless

I agree with you, but a lot of Protestant people engage in selective hearing, so it is hard to explain what the worshipers were really doing. I told my friend involved with the missions trip how does he know they were actually worshiping the statue or Mary, did he ask them? And the explanation I got is that he was talking with the person who was working with these Mary worshiping Catholics for a few years in Chile trying to convert them and she told him that this is what they do, they worship Mary. So basically it’s just a viscious circle of “i’ve heard this from this person” and so it must be true. It is very hard to convince someone otherwise because they are so used to seeing everything visually in their Churches, such as the appearance of everyone having bibles in Church, so this MUST mean that they only preach from the bible while ignoring the fact that the bible was also used by bible-only Churches in order to lead people unknowingly into sin. To me a lot of Protestant faiths that practice SS is more visual then anything because they have to see the bible to believe and without the bible, they wouldn’t believe in anything. So these are the people that are the hardest to convince about the fact that there is more then just what you see on the outside.

 

[adstrinity]

And, for the love of all things Holy & Nixon, praying the Rosary, crawling around on the hands and knees? The people you saw were dragging the Rosary on the floor?

 

[Zooey]

What is it with you?? I told you what I witnessed for years and you are calling me a liar. How much more in denail can a person be? Bowing to statues, crawling around for hours crying and petitioning Mary for special favors while ignoring Christ is the ultimate display of idolotry.

[SIGN1]
Piffle!
Pshaw!!
Pfui!!!
[/SIGN1]

Sounds to me like you’ve been reading too many Chick tracts. Enough of that kind of three-day-old carp is enough to make anybody’s brain turn to cream cheese.
Ye must needs get out more, laddie.

And, for the love of all things Holy & Nixon, praying the Rosary, crawling around on the hands and knees? The people you saw were dragging the Rosary on the floor?

I know. Isn’t that a picture? Sheesh!!
I’m telling you, some people have been living on Jack Chick & Pop Tarts for too long.

 

[twopekinguys]

You are so off base on this, that you aren’t even in the ballpark.

Everything you have tried to come up with has been clearly refuted. It is merely you who refuses to believe or understand it.

There is a BIG difference between giving a “clear impression”, and giving you proof. I gave you proof of what is required as far as Mary, and being Catholic. Whether you choose to understand and accept that, or not, is up to you.

I will ask you this question one more time since you have chosen to ignore it more than once.

The people you saw worshiping statues, crawling on the floor praying the rosary etc., Did you ask them if they were worshipping the statues? Did you ask them if they were praying the rosary while ignoring Jesus? Or were these your assumptions?

It really isn’t hard for you to answer these questions. Please stop avoiding them.

Bump

I know proallen has been online since this was posted.

I’m just wondering if he will come back to answer.

 

[rinnie]

I have a friend that was on a missions trip in Chile South America. When they came back they told me that they have a huge statue of Mary in the center of town and people come from all over to kneel beside it and pray to it. I know that we should honor Mary, but does any other Catholic think that sometimes some may take it too far? I’m not one that pray’s to Mary or any saints, but I can understand when someone say’s the rosary or say’s a prayer to a saint in time of need. Even a short prayer to Mary, just not everday or five times a day. And ther are many that buy statues of only Mary for the house and there is no Christ anywhere in their home. Wouldn’t most people want to put Christ before anything else?. It just seems like things like this bring a bad name to a lot of Catholics. I would like to hear peoples opinion on this.

It is sad when protestatants do not understand the full teaching of the Blessed Mother. It is even more sad when you hear someone who claims to be Catholic say not to say the Rosary everyday.

Posts like these are what really hurts a Catholic.

 

[twopekinguys]

You’re probably right, blue is not my best color…

 

[Proallen]

It is true that there are Catholics who petition Mary for her intercessionary prayers, in the devout belief that she is the refuge and the hope of sinners. A cry of help to a beloved mother by a sinner who feels unworthy to stand before God, is a tender devotion, not an act of worship that demeans God. When those petitions are answered, it is God who answers them through Mary, the instrument and channel of His divine graces.

As you were a devout Catholic before, you would know the “Memorare”
*Remember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone who fled to Thy protection,
implored Thy help or sought Thy intercession, was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto Thee, O Virgin of Virgins, my Mother;
to Thee do I come, before thee I kneel, sinful and sorrowful.
O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions,
but in Thy clemency, hear and answer me.
Amen. *

In all my years as Catholic who has witnessed the tender devotion to our Blessed Mother, I have not once witnessed any Catholic who has practiced this devotion to fall away from the faith, or leave the Church. In fact, the opposite is true, tender devotion to Mary leads to a greater faith, hope and love in Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

I would respectfully disagree with you on two counts. First, the church is not doing a good job teaching Scripture to its faithful. Scripture clearly shows us that nobody, not even the Virgin Mary is worthy to stand before God alone without being cloaked with the Savior Christ. Second, I do not agree that teaching to kneel and petition to Mary is helpful nor righteous. Jesus is our one and only true mediator and He faithfully hears our petitions. This is one of the main reasons why I had to leave the Catholic church.

 

[Proallen]

Those are just cheap words. I belong to Christ, not the Roman church. And this is your problem. You proclaim doctrine which is to be more solid than any Protestants, but you bail out when your parishioners don’t follow suit. That is hypocracy my friend. You can’t have it both way.

And can you name one single church out there amongst the 30,000 or so Christian denominations that Catholics claim there are that deals with this sort of perversion of what you call honoring Mary? I would like to know of just one. The point is that it exists in your church whether you have blinders on to it or not. It’s a perversion that your church won’t deal with. If it is against your doctrine as you so claim, then why is it tolerated??

I have to say that these words from you don’t sound like a Catholics or anyone that believes what the bible say’s. If the bible states that all generations will call her blessed and you are saying she is a perversion of Christianity, I think you need to re read some of the bible quotes that were posted on the thread and not just skim through posts.

The perversion isn’t what Scripture says, but how the church will not address a clear abuse. You know exactly what I meant.

 

[twopekinguys]

I would respectfully disagree with you on two counts. First, the church is not doing a good job teaching Scripture to its faithful. Scripture clearly shows us that nobody, not even the Virgin Mary is worthy to stand before God alone without being cloaked with the Savior Christ. Second, I do not agree that teaching to kneel and petition to Mary is helpful nor righteous. Jesus is our one and only true mediator and He faithfully hears our petitions. This is one of the main reasons why I had to leave the Catholic church.

Item 1. You don’t think that Mary is worthy to stand in front of God? Maybe it is you that is not familar with scripture. Who accepted the call? Who gave birth to our Lord? Who did he perform his first Miracle for? Who was one of the few people that stood at the foot of the Cross during his crucifixion?

How can you say she is “cloaked with the Savior Christ”? If anyone, she was.

Item 2. No one is disputing that Jesus is our only mediator. Mary is not a mediator, she is an intercessor. Praying with us, asking on our behalf.

I am still interested in knowing whether or not you asked the people you observed if they were worshipping Mary, or the statues.

 

[adstrinity]

I am still interested in knowing whether or not you asked the people you observed if they were worshipping Mary, or the statues.

…and how did people pray the Rosary, dragging it on the floor, and on their hands and knees?

 

[roselily]

I would respectfully disagree with you on two counts. First, the church is not doing a good job teaching Scripture to its faithful. Scripture clearly shows us that nobody, not even the Virgin Mary is worthy to stand before God alone without being cloaked with the Savior Christ. Second, I do not agree that teaching to kneel and petition to Mary is helpful nor righteous. Jesus is our one and only true mediator and He faithfully hears our petitions. This is one of the main reasons why I had to leave the Catholic church.

Proallen, did you read in Bible angels had traveling up and down from heaven to Earth by God as messengers to warning, protect and annunciation and Angel Gabriel sent message to Mother Mary, and she is our Mother by Christ? we ask her pray for us, because her prayers are more powerful than ours, and even pray before cross or before a statue, is pray to our Father in Heaven,and we worship Christ in Spirit, and that our Father is in Heaven, we can not see Him now,

Before sleep I dropped on my knees to implore our Father in Heaven.
it is when you see a Catholic dropped knees before Holy Mother statue in church, remained thus a long time in silence; It is asked Most Holy Mother in Heaven pray for us, not same as pray to statue, because our Mother is in Heaven also, there is a more powerful world in Heaven, Our Father Almighty, and all His Holy angels … and all Holy ones…

We know, Fortunately Catholics were able to say to others, 'you know, that we never pray to statues, we pray to our Father in Heaven; We worship our Father in Heaven, We asked Mother to pray for us, help us.

Bless God!
Praise be Jesus Christ!
O mother of God! O Most Holy Mother!

I read that Mary Mama is the “heart of Church,” the mother of Jesus who hears the prayers of the afflicted. The Italian monk Gabriel Possenti (1838-1862)
encapsulated her role in the life of the church when he said, “If you are in danger, she will hasten to free you; if you are troubled, she will console you; if you are sick, she will bring you relief; if you are in need she will help you.” No matter who you are,“she simply comes to a heart that wants to love her.”

May Jesus Christ be praised!
For ages and ages.

 

[kikkichan]

Sorry, but you just made a really big leap there.

Believing that she is the “Immaculate Conception”, and believing that she was assumed into heaven, in no way indicates that anyone is required “to believe in every single title inferred upon Mary.”

Like Trallius’ mother, I have run the RCIA program in our parish (15 years), and I can guarantee you that The Assumption of Mary, and her Immaculate Conception are the only things that are taught, and required to believe.

You realize that by “Immaculate Conception”, we are referring to her as being the only person on Earth that was “conceived” in the normal human manner, but was not born with Original sin.

Sorry about not having a link to back this up, but I’ve heard that John the Baptist, who was not conceived w/o sin, but was born w/o sin. Mary was conceived w/o sin (the IC). There was something about the ‘leaping for joy in Elizabeth’s womb’. This could have been merely a supposition, so I don’t stand by. I bring it up in case any others here have heard this.

thanks,
-kc

 

[rinnie]

I have been a Cathloic for over 75 years and in over 100 Churchs in my life in the USA> and I have never seen Cathloic worshiping Mary,First of all the Priest would not allow this to happen

You know what Bill you are correct. And here is the worst part. That singer madonna who was a discrace to use the Blessed Mothers name, I think she even put herself up on the cross onceshe was adored by millions and is discusting but thats okay. She has people cheering and adoring her and thats okay.

But let a Catholic kneel before the Blessed Mother and pray to her son, and we are concemned

 

[Proallen]

Item 1. You don’t think that Mary is worthy to stand in front of God? Maybe it is you that is not familar with scripture. Who accepted the call? Who gave birth to our Lord? Who did he perform his first Miracle for? Who was one of the few people that stood at the foot of the Cross during his crucifixion?

How can you say she is “cloaked with the Savior Christ”? If anyone, she was.

Item 2. No one is disputing that Jesus is our only mediator. Mary is not a mediator, she is an intercessor. Praying with us, asking on our behalf.

I am still interested in knowing whether or not you asked the people you observed if they were worshipping Mary, or the statues.

So when Scripture tells us that all have fallen short of the grace of God, you believe that excludes Mary? If so then why did Mary proclaim God as her Savior? Something doesn’t add up in your knowledge or lack there of of Scripture.

And your efforts to ignore and sidstep the problem of Mary worship are just amazing. You were told of the eye witness point blank but yet you still are trying to defer it. This has gotten laughable.

 

[twopekinguys]

So when Scripture tells us that all have fallen short of the grace of God, you believe that excludes Mary? If so then why did Mary proclaim God as her Savior? Something doesn’t add up in your knowledge or lack there of of Scripture.

And your efforts to ignore and sidstep the problem of Mary worship are just amazing. You were told of the eye witness point blank but yet you still are trying to defer it. This has gotten laughable.

No one is sidestepping your **assumption **of Mary worship. It is you that is doing all of the sidestepping.

You’re right, this has become laughable. Your obvious aversion to answering questions posed to you show your lack of knowledge, along with your inability to address the obviously errouneous and outlandish statements you made in previous posts.

I find it amusing that when you can’t answer simple questions, you resort to calling it “laughable”, or “I would be laughing right now”.

Your comment about witnessing something means nothing unless you verified what you saw with the individuals. You have made a HUGE assumption, and a really bad one at that.

It is also obvious you weren’t as “devout” of a Catholic as you try to portray yourself, or you would have known better than to make the assumption in the first place.

To your question, “If so then why did Mary proclaim God as her Savior?” Try reading Luke

***“Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” ***

Seem pretty clear to me why she called him Savior. I am not sure why it isn’t so clear to you. She knew from the very beginning that he was the Savior.

Now, answer the questions that have been posed to you.

The people you saw worshiping statues, crawling on the floor praying the rosary etc., Did you ask them if they were worshipping the statues? Did you ask them if they were praying the rosary while ignoring Jesus? Or were these your assumptions?

These questions have been asked of you more than once. Please stop dancing around them and answer.

 

[cruisin]

Originally Posted by Bill Pick
I have been a Cathloic for over 75 years and in over 100 Churchs in my life in the USA> and I have never seen Cathloic worshiping Mary,First of all the Priest would not allow this to happen

Originally Posted by twopekinguys
The people you saw worshiping statues, crawling on the floor praying the rosary etc., Did you ask them if they were worshipping the statues? Did you ask them if they were praying the rosary while ignoring Jesus? Or were these your assumptions?

I hate to but in on your converstaion with proallen, but i am struggling with something and would like some clarification for my own understanding.

On one hand Bill claims that he has never “seen” any a Catholic worship Mary and on the other twopekinguys claim that one must or should "ask "because there is evidently not always a visual difference between worship and veneration.

1. which is it?
2. or is it both?
3. If a person should be able tell by looking and watching, what is the visual diferences between worship and veneration so i would know?
4. or should i always just ask?

cruisin

 

[twopekinguys]

I hate to but in on your converstaion with proallen, but i am struggling with something and would like some clarification for my own understanding.

On one hand Bill claims that he has never “seen” any a Catholic worship Mary and on the other twopekinguys claim that one must or should "ask "because there is evidently not always a visual difference between worship and veneration.

1. which is it?
2. or is it both? I think I would have to go with this one. I would have to add that I have never seen anyone “worship” Mary either…
3. If a person should be able tell by looking and watching, what is the visual diferences between worship and veneration so i would know? There is really no concrete answer here. What may look like worship to one person may actually be veneration to another.
4. or should i always just ask? Asking eliminates speculation

cruisin

Good question(s).

For me, it really boils down to judging and assuming.

Unless you actually speak to someone, there is no way of knowing what is in their heart. Anything else is specualtion and assumption.

Proallen’s pronouncement was that he saw something, and his interpretation was right based on what he viewed. Period. You will also notice that when he has been pressured about whether or not he asked them, or if it was an assumption, he has avoided answering. Sorry, but that is a big flag for me.

His posts just don’t “add up”, if you know what I mean. Any “Devout Catholic” would know that :

1. We don’t worship Mary, and that it is forbidden according to the Catechism.
2. People will not purpously drag their Rosary on the floor because in most cases they have been blessed. Blessed items are to be shown a certain amount of respect, and “dragging” them on the floor would not be showing it respect. They aren’t to be thrown around Willy Nilly so to speak.
3. When we pray the Rosary, we are meditating on the Life of Christ.
4. We don’t worship statues (idolatry), they are merely reminders of what that person stood for in this life.

So, you can see that at this point, he credibility on this issue is somewhat obscure at best.

I have attended many different churches in my time, and I have seen some really unusual things. Things that I didn’t understand, and things that made me feel uncomfortable. Instead of making a blanket statement about the practice, the church, or the participant, I have sought more information. I guess that comes from being Irish. The best way to learn, is to ask, and not to assume.

You see, it really boils down to what the Church actually teaches and believes versus what people **think **the Church teaches and believes. We tell people all the time that we don’t worship Mary, but for some it just goes in one ear and out the other.

Hope this helps.

 

[adstrinity]

People will not purpously drag their Rosary on the floor because in most cases they have been blessed. Blessed items are to be shown a certain amount of respect, and “dragging” them on the floor would not be showing it respect. They aren’t to be thrown around Willy Nilly so to speak.

Even if a Rosary isn’t blessed, we don’t drag it on the ground (~I~ wouldn’t, anyway). That’s not something to do. It’s like putting a Bible on the ground…or, putting a book on top of the Bible; you show that Bible respect. I also wouldn’t leave a cross lying on a ground.

Crawling on one’s hands and knees makes praying the Rosary difficult. I can’t even fathom it. WHY would one do this? That’s not how one prays the Rosary. I want to know more about this situation before I completely misunderstand, but, the poster who posted it wont answer the question or explain further.

 

[twopekinguys]

Even if a Rosary isn’t blessed, we don’t drag it on the ground (~I~ wouldn’t, anyway). That’s not something to do. It’s like putting a Bible on the ground…or, putting a book on top of the Bible; you show that Bible respect. I also wouldn’t leave a cross lying on a ground.

Crawling on one’s hands and knees makes praying the Rosary difficult. I can’t even fathom it. WHY would one do this? That’s not how one prays the Rosary. I want to know more about this situation before I completely misunderstand, but, the poster who posted it wont answer the question or explain further.

I agree. I said “most”, because I can’t guarantee that everyone has had them blessed. That would have given Proallen something to really jump on if you know what i mean.

I agree, he will probably never answer the questions, but it is up to us to correct his misinterpretation and misrepresentations.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t pray the Rosary alot either. I pray it mostly at funerals and wakes. I am more of a Stations of The Cross type of guy. But that’s just me.