M
Mickey
Guest
She is the mother of God the Son. The Trinity is one in substance and undivided.
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M
mercygate
Guest
Christ, as you point out but in different language, is the second person of the Godhead. “Christ” does not begin in the womb of Mary.
I’m a little scared to answer your question directly for fear of misrepresenting this complex issue. No part? Indeed, Mary did not “create” his divine nature or give birth to God the Father. But she did give birth to the Incarnate second Person of the Godhead, who, even in the flesh is not separated from ‘the glory which the father gave him in his love for him before the foundation of the world.’ (Jn 17:24). So, because of the divine circumincession (which means basically that where one Person of the Trinity is, there the others are also) she gave birth to God.
This stuff ain’t easy, and I don’t believe every average Joe needs to comprehend it fully, but the Church definitely needs to understand it – and has been forced to hammer these things out through the ages as heresy upon heresy has arisen, each in its way challenging the nature of God, the nature of Christ, and the meaning of the Incarnation.
M
Mickey
Guest
John 19: 26-27
When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
Sacred Tradition and magisterial teaching tells us that these verses from the Gospel of John are interpreted to mean that when Jesus gives His mother to the Apostle John, He is giving her to all of humanity—to be our mother also.
L
LegionofMary
Guest
Correct, Mary did not give the divine nature to Jesus, yet a word of caution; the mortal body that you speak of is the suffering body of our Lord, it is always in union with his divine nature, the one cannot exist without the other or he would cease to be Jesus Christ, the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ.
M
Mickey
Guest
Mary gave birth to the whole Jesus–completely divine and completely human. His humanity and divinity cannot be separated–the hypostatic union. You are treading on nestorian waters here.
M
Mickey
Guest
Oops, sorry mercygate. I see that you have already explained this better than me–as usual.
M
mercygate
Guest
Here we go! Dogmatic Theology one-oh-one:Mary gave birth to the whole Jesus–completely divine and completely human. His humanity and divinity cannot be separated–the hypostatic union. You are treading on nestorian waters here.
Homousion
Homoiousion
Hypostatic union
Divine perichoresis
Divine circumincession
Are we having fun yet? :yup:
M
Mickey
Guest
:whacky:
R
Rustyxcv
Guest
Dear Huguenot and EVERYBODY else who is joining in on this lively discussion –
– I wonder if our Dear Lady, when she said “Yes” to the angel Gabriel, also added, " . . . but you know, Gabe, it is going give rise to an unending blog on the question of my person and my status 2005 years hence which will rival in its length the very Eternal Nature of that One whom you have asked my to bear."
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To Hugo-- The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the BVM are not false teachings, they are infallibly true. With regard to the I.C., remember that people who encountered Jesus in person were often instantaneously healed of all their diseases and even of all the effects of sin in their previous lives. Imagine what effect it would have on one to have that same Person dwelling within one’s own body for a full 12 months. The wonder is not that Mary was Imacculately Conceived or that she was assumed into Heaven at the end of her earthly life, BUT rather that God’s grace was so condescending and Mary’s humble acceptance of her station so complete that she didn’t soar physically directly up into the Highest Heavens BEFORE Christ was born. That’s the true miracle!
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Eaglesmark wrote:
So you would agree that Mary has no part whatsoever in the Divinity of Jesus Christ?
Mercygate answered this very well. I would only add that there is a very real difference between the nature of Mary’s association with the divinity of Christ BEFORE the Incarnation and her association with the divinity of Christ (and the graces received therefrom) AFTER the Resurrection. We interact with Mary according to where she is NOW, not according to where she was before Jesus came to earth.
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Blessings to all!!! --Rusty
– I wonder if our Dear Lady, when she said “Yes” to the angel Gabriel, also added, " . . . but you know, Gabe, it is going give rise to an unending blog on the question of my person and my status 2005 years hence which will rival in its length the very Eternal Nature of that One whom you have asked my to bear."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To Hugo-- The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the BVM are not false teachings, they are infallibly true. With regard to the I.C., remember that people who encountered Jesus in person were often instantaneously healed of all their diseases and even of all the effects of sin in their previous lives. Imagine what effect it would have on one to have that same Person dwelling within one’s own body for a full 12 months. The wonder is not that Mary was Imacculately Conceived or that she was assumed into Heaven at the end of her earthly life, BUT rather that God’s grace was so condescending and Mary’s humble acceptance of her station so complete that she didn’t soar physically directly up into the Highest Heavens BEFORE Christ was born. That’s the true miracle!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eaglesmark wrote:
So you would agree that Mary has no part whatsoever in the Divinity of Jesus Christ?
Mercygate answered this very well. I would only add that there is a very real difference between the nature of Mary’s association with the divinity of Christ BEFORE the Incarnation and her association with the divinity of Christ (and the graces received therefrom) AFTER the Resurrection. We interact with Mary according to where she is NOW, not according to where she was before Jesus came to earth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Blessings to all!!! --Rusty
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Rustyxcv
Guest
OOOOPS!
I said 12 months, of course I meant NINE months!
–Rusty
I said 12 months, of course I meant NINE months!
–Rusty
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
btw thanks, I think I would like your church
just a bit too far.I will have to stick to my church in the woods.
H
Huguenot
Guest
Well she sure is the mother of Jesus …
H
Huguenot
Guest
But why not go to her Son directly ?
H
Huguenot
Guest
Kitty Chan:
Is your church really in the woods ??? It must be wonderful , you can sing as loud as you can …btw thanks, I think I would like your church
I will have to stick to my church in the woods.
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
We do, and we can. It is not an either or. Think of it this way, GOD chose MARY, the only one who was able to carry out the Faith 100% correctly from the beginning of the world. Mary was literally the first Christian. Without Mary’s “Yes!” to the angel, you would not have a chance for salvation would you? No, she trusted in the Lord and because of that, you have a chance at salvation. Catholics see this and honor and respect her for this. Everyday there are Masses held throughout the world in adoration of the Son. Mary said “My soul doth magnify the Lord” and “all generations shall call me blessed”. In Catholic Theology, we have the Communion of Saints, which is a Tradition (doctrine) of the Fathers. We have Church Triumphant (the Church in Heaven), the Church Militant (the Church on Earth) and Church Suffering (the souls which are in purgatory which will soon see the face of God). We believe we are connected to all saints and that once we die (if in a state of grace), that we receive a glorified body and achieve the Beatific Vision (Heaven). We do not believe that once we die we are cut off from any member of the body (the Church), if we die in Christ. We believe that any saint, living on Earth or in Heaven can pray for us and that their prayers can be beneficial. We believe that all prayers are ultimately answered by God. It is true that Jesus performed His first miracle for His mother even though He was not ready. He did this out of love for His mother, and we should also show her love because He honored His mother and gave her to us on the cross when He said “son, behold thy Mother”. All prayers are answered by God, and Catholics only look for intercession of the saints that conforms to the will of God. In Catholic Theology, asking a saint in Heaven or on Earth to pray for you would be no different. The Church has always asked the Saints whether on this Earth or in Heaven to pray for us. Nothing is impossible with God.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
And Jesus is God, hence, mother of God. Saying Mother of God (Theotokos) does not take away from Jesus by exalting Mary. Mary did not create the Trinity, just the opposite. Christ has two natures, human and divine. Mary is responsible for giving Christ His flesh by her “yes” to the angel, through her own free will. Christ existed before He created Mary, but when the Word became Incarnate she became the Mother of God because she is the Mother of Christ. Christ’s natures, human and divine, are perfectly united and as such Mary is the Mother of God.
H
Huguenot
Guest
Semper Fi:
Well the expression still sounds strange, since God is eternal how can He have a mother ???
H
Huguenot
Guest
Semper Fi:
For me , the fact that he told John “behold thy Mother” means that on the Cross He asked John to look after her, it doesn’t mean that she is the mother of all the believers …
So what is the problem if I always go directly to Jesus ?
For me , the fact that he told John “behold thy Mother” means that on the Cross He asked John to look after her, it doesn’t mean that she is the mother of all the believers …
J
joshua_b
Guest
Greetings once again Huguenot. There is no problem whatsoever with going “directly to Jesus”. We do it all the time as Catholics. But, as human beings, occasionally we need a little help in finding him I guess is the best way I can put it. Mary helps us by pointing us in the direction of Jesus…by showing us how to reach him if we are feeling a little lost. Mary’s role is basically to point us to Jesus and the step out of our way. Mary only gave one command in the Bible “Do as he says…”.So what is the problem if I always go directly to Jesus ?
For me , the fact that he told John “behold thy Mother” means that on the Cross He asked John to look after her, it doesn’t mean that she is the mother of all the believers …
Maybe I can give you a personal example. Just last week I was in a general state of malaise, and not really sure why. I was even (because of my state of emotion) having a difficult time praying. Whenever that happens, I just pray a few Hail Marys and let Mary pray for me. I actually find it very comforting to know that Mary will go to Jesus on my behalf if I am too wrapped up in myself to be able to do it “directly”. I think the problem with most Protestants and Marian teaching is that the Protestants feel that a devotion to Mary is a distraction from Jesus. Catholics feel, however, that a devotion to Mary will ultimately lead us into a deeper and more profound relationship to Jesus.
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
There is no problem. Where’s the problem if I ask a saint (in Heaven or on this Earth) to pray for me to God?So what is the problem if I always go directly to Jesus ?
She is because of her “Yes,” to the Lord when He asked her to bare His son. She is because she was the first Christian. She is because she made it possible for you to be saved.For me , the fact that he told John “behold thy Mother” means that on the Cross He asked John to look after her, it doesn’t mean that she is the mother of all the believers …
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