MSNBC’s Morning Joe rains hell on right-wing Christians for choosing Trump’s 'blasphemy' over Christ's teachings

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MikeInVA said:
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Maximus1:
No . Abortion cannot be the only issue.
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No, if a person is killed before he can be born nothing else matters.
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Nothing else matter for that person, but plenty matters for other people. Just because they were not killed in the womb does not mean we should ignore them.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
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drcube:
which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”
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So, what are the proportionate reasons that justify killing a million innocent children per year?
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Nothing “justifies” the killing of the innocent. But there can be proportionate reasons to vote for a candidate who does not move to criminalize that killing. That does not comprise “justifying” the killing.
 
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That’s an invitation to disregard the issue.
 
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StudentMI said:
That’s an invitation to disregard the issue.
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I have, on many occasions, invited pro-life posters here to support universal pre-natal health care and delivery services free of charge to reduce the incentive for abortion and to show women that we stand with them in their mission to bring forth new life. So far that invitation has been universally disregarded.
 
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And that’s a shame. However Catholic doctrine allows for a variety of approaches to politics. The issue of the life of the unborn is dogma.
 
In these forums,the abortion card is like a mom bringing up how many hours she was in labor. It is a way of closing off any discussion of subjects that make people address other areas of human failure. “We can’t do anything about (fill in the blank) until there are no abortions anywhere”
 
StudentMI said:
And that’s a shame. However Catholic doctrine allows for a variety of approaches to politics. The issue of the life of the unborn is dogma.
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What the dogma states is that abortion is evil. There is no dogma that says we must never vote for someone who declines to criminalize abortion. That is not dogma. As for politics, the view that overturning Roe v Wade is the best way to oppose abortion is one of those various approaches to politics that you mentioned.
 
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Agreed. I’ve voted for the green party and the libertarians before because of their stance on other issues. I’m not coming at this from a vote Republican or else angle. However, abortion I would argue is the overriding concern. After all, it’s a bit odd to talk about caring for the less fortunate and vulnerable when putting aside the issue of the most vulnerable of all.
 
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StudentMI said:
Agreed. I’ve voted for the green party and the libertarians before because of their stance on other issues. I’m not coming at this from a vote Republican or else angle. However, abortion I would argue is the overriding concern. After all, it’s a bit odd to talk about caring for the less fortunate and vulnerable when putting aside the issue of the most vulnerable of all.
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If it were a matter of one candidate killing babies and the other candidate cheating poor people, I would choose the one who is cheating poor people, so as to prevent the other candidate from killing babies. But that is not the choice. The politicians are not the ones doing the killing. It is the mothers and the doctors they hire and to some extent the friends of the woman who pressure her into getting an abortion. Just voting for the candidate who says “I’m against abortion” is just rolling the dice that whatever policy that candidate has will make those women change their minds and keep their babies, or put them up for adoption. But in the present election, many people believe that the Republican candidate is the the most corrupt President in history and a threat to the continued existence of our nation. People with that view do not trust that abortion will be ended just because he is elected. And therefore for them it is imperative that someone else be elected. If the only alternative is a Democrat who is pro-choice, it would be a proportionate reason to vote for that Democrat, and then do everything possible to convince others to respect life in the womb.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
No, that is just the way voting works. You can’t vote for everyone.
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Of course not.
With no perfect candidate, we should vote for the one that will do the most against the most evil.

Abortion is top on that list, it is an intrinsic evil.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
The politicians are not the ones doing the killing.
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No, but they are the ones enacting laws that enable this to go on…or the ones that can impose a law to stop it.
LeafByNiggle said:
Just voting for the candidate who says “I’m against abortion” is just rolling the dice that whatever policy that candidate has will make those women change their minds and keep their babies, or put them up for adoption
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Trump has been true to his word thus far concerning abortion.
Will a law stop all of it…no, of course not.
But at least we will no longer have state sanctioned murder of our children.
LeafByNiggle said:
many people believe that the Republican candidate is the the most corrupt President in history and a threat to the continued existence of our nation.
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An arguable point.
But the fact that it is arguable means it is not an intrinsic evil.
Abortion, being an intrinsic evil, trumps that point.
LeafByNiggle said:
If the only alternative is a Democrat who is pro-choice, it would be a proportionate reason to vote for that Democrat, and then do everything possible to convince others to respect life in the womb.
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The only proportional reason would be another intrinsic evil. At present, there isn’t one.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
“Ensure” is impossible, no matter what you do.
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Making abortion illegal will ensure that the vast majority of potential abortions will not occur. There are always people who violate laws, but we cannot refuse to take action unless it is 100% effective.
 
Total nonsense. But there isn’t the slightest doubt that anyone who politically supports a supporter of abortion is complicit in the killing. Accusing me of lesser evils doesn’t change that.

But you really shouldn’t tell things you know are factually false just to embellish your condemnation of me.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Nothing else matter for that person, but plenty matters for other people.
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I just finished a book entitled “In Broad Daylight” about the endless stream of people in Ukraine who were complicit with the execution of Jews in village after village after village. Among the cart drivers, the ammunition carriers, the lunch preparers, the ditch diggers, the grave fillers were those for whom “plenty mattered”. After years of Soviet penury, the Jews’ belongings left behind were a boon. It “mattered”.
LeafByNiggle said:
Just because they were not killed in the womb does not mean we should ignore them.
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Nor do we.
LeafByNiggle said:
But there can be proportionate reasons to vote for a candidate who does not move to criminalize that killing.
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There were plenty of people who thought they had “proportionate reasons” to carry ammunition to the SS shooters at the mass graves. Some feared for their own lives. Some received an article of clothing; a wrist watch, a horse, an entire house. Some believed they had been cheated by a Jew and believed all Jews were parasites on society.

The thing being, there was no “proportionality” to any of it, any more than there is today justifying the killing of millions of children. What equals killing a million children? Tell us. When we, as a nation, acquiesce in the legality of murder, even promote it with our votes, we name ourselves as murderers. As Catholics who support those who keep it legal, we are selling our birth right as moral human being for the pottage of something like “Medicare for all” or “Cash for Clunkers” or “free tuition”.
 
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