My atheist boyfriend and I

  • Thread starter Thread starter flick26
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
flick26 said:
My boyfriend’s father is in fact a devout Christian (not Catholic though and he never raised his children in the religion, so he was not even baptised) and his family effectively disowned him for marrying an atheist as my boyfriend’s mother is an atheist. But I suppose in this case, he just followed his mother’s path.

…

I really don’t want my children to end up like this. So, I figured by teaching them about Catholicism (why would I tear down my own faith?!) but not forcing them to do whatever I say without understanding what they are doing and why, I would raise children who turned out like myself. But I am only in my early twenties and children will not be coming until a decade or so. In time, I will probably figure out the best method to ensure my children don’t live as “Catholics” by name. I would rather my children be true, believing Catholics or don’t be one at all.
Click to expand...
*Apologetics, Apologetics - get Patrick Madrid’s books - they are wonderful. Get Stephen Ray’s books Crossing the Tiber and Upon this Rock. They are interesting and helpful.

:)*
 
1ke said:
The Bishop doesn’t call you personally, by calling on the phone or sending a letter. The “call” of the bishop is through the Church. Therefore it is through the priest and the religious education program-- they prepare you for confirmation and then the Bishop determines when/where Confirmation takes place for the youth of the parish.

If your parents did not have your enrolled in religious education then perhaps that is why you were not confirmed with the others at the appropriate time and instead had to attend a class for adults or had to ask about it.

That aside, I am glad you received Confirmation and the graces that flow from it.

Well, their sacraments of initiation remain incomplete and they do not receive the graces Christ intends for them. From a canon law perspective, one is to be confirmed before marriage or ordination, so they may find themselves in need of confirmation class and Confirmation before receiving either of those sacraments. Spiritually, they have not received the gifts of the Holy Spirit sacramentally and the graces that come with the Sacrament.

They remain a Catholic, albeit one who is in an objective state of grave sin. Of course, we cannot judge whether or not they are actually in a state of mortal sin because we don’t know the state of their souls and their culpability in their decision to leave the Church (i.e. out of ignorance, or willfully with full knowledge, etc). We do know they place their souls in jeopardy and cut themselves off from the sacramental grace of Christ. We pray for them to return, and God awaits their return.

No, baptism changes us permanently. It removes original sin, washes away any actual sin, regenerates our soul, and incorporates us into the Body of Christ, the Church. It is an indelible mark on our souls and cannot be repeated nor can it be “undone”. The same is true for Confirmation-- it too imparts a character on the soul and cannot be repeated.

I hope you do not think I am making light of your age. I am not. My own ordeal with the atheist boyfriend was very painful and when that relationship ended I mourned it for a long time. It was very hard. It seemed like my world was upside down. It hurt deeply. I didn’t date again for three years.

But, the old adage time heals all wounds is true. From my vantage point it all seems so long ago, and so silly now. Of course it wasn’t silly at the time, but I gotta tell you that a few years and some distance and perspective really makes you go, “what on Earth was I thinking???”

Not a sin, per se.

The Church discourages marriages between Catholics and the unbaptized-- particularly someone who is athesit and hostile to the faith. Paul writes about unequally yoked individuals and warns Christian widows against remarrying unbelievers.

So, no it isn’t a sin, but it is terribly imprudent. God gives us the help of the Holy Spirit to grow in virtue. The cardinal virtues are prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance.

Prudence would tell us that entering into an intimate relationship with a person who rejects God and his Church is not prudent.
Click to expand...
*Your post is excellent! Excellent! My circumstances were different from yours and I do believe God was watching over me all the way. I had an uncle who was a priest and believe he must have prayed for us all every day!

:):):)*
 
flick26 said:
We have discussed contraception (I know the Catholic teaching says be open to life but I really don’t want more than two children)
Click to expand...
Sigh.

Sounds like you need more formation in the Catholic faith yourself.
VeritasLuxMea said:
but it was actually him who warned me that the marriage would not be sacramental and not valid in the eyes of Catholicism and God(?).
Click to expand...
This is not correct.

He is confusing sacramentality with validity. They are two separate things.

A Catholic can **validly **marry a non-Catholic who is unbaptized if they receive a dispensation from disparity of cult from their Bishop and follow the Catholic laws on marriage.

Sacramentality flows from baptism, so if one or both parties are unbaptized their marriage is termed a natural marriage. It would become a sacrament immediately if the unbaptized party were ever to be baptized.
 
1ke said:
I don’t know what you mean by that.
Click to expand...
I think Veritas is saying that one can still choose to leave the Faith even though they have received the Sacraments of Initiation. Someone can definitely walk away from the Church and choose not to believe in its dogmas and practice its teachings and customs. However, this doesn’t change the fact that those who are baptized Catholic are, as you said before, Catholic forever and that no act of man can undo that fact.
 
In reply to the original post:

I can’t say that one choice or the other is definitely right for you. However, if you do marry this man, you and your children will constantly have to deal with this serious conflict between your faith and his lack of faith. And that conflict is likely to seem worse later than it does now, because now you are in the “young and in love” stage, which can make it easy to overlook potential faults or conflicts.

For example, imagine that it is ten years from now. The two of you are married, and you have two children. For whatever reason, you are not ready for another child, and you decide to use periodic abstinence (natural family planning) to avoid pregnancy. Is he truly going to be OK with this? Or is he going to insist on using contraception (which is gravely sinful), or is he maybe going to ask you to do things for him during the abstinence time that the Catholic Church teaches are gravely sinful?

Or consider another scenario ten years from now: The two of you are married, and you have discerned that God is calling you to be open to life. Your husband has reluctantly agreed to having a third child, but he draws the line at having any more beyond that, because he thinks that another child would be too difficult, too expensive, etc., and because he doesn’t see the blessing of children from a Catholic perspective. This may not seem like a big deal to you now, since you said that you only want two children, but this is something that could be heartbreaking if you change your mind later.

I understand what it is like to be young and in love, but as someone else already said, the old cliche of “time heals all wounds” really is true. I can’t help thinking that there may be a 22-year-old Catholic man out there somewhere who is looking for a good Catholic woman to marry, and that maybe you are meant to build a marriage and family with him instead.

Having said that, there *are *some Catholic/atheist marriages that work. But I have also heard stories of heartache, heartbreak, and seemingly unresolvable conflicts in Catholic/atheist marriages.

I think the bottom line is this: How important is it to you that your kids have a father who will be a shining example of the Catholic faith to them, rather than someone who is only barely willing to allow them to receive the sacraments?
 
One more thing. I was re-reading your original post, and I really think that you know the right answer already:
flick26 said:
Of course, it would be more ideal if I married a Catholic man but I have fallen in love with my boyfriend and there is no one else that I could ever imagine spending my life with. . . .
But here is the problem, our views on religion and science (e.g. the purpose of evolution) are so different and we always agree to disagree. But is this how I want my children to be raised? In a household where mom and dad can’t even agree on this huge topic? Mom believes in God but dad doesn’t really and doesn’t like religion? I want my children to grow up in a solid household with firm beliefs. If we are married, who will I turn to for spiritual advice?
Click to expand...
I think this quote shows that you know what you should do, but that you don’t want to do it because it would be so difficult to end the relationship with your boyfriend. I completely understand that difficulty. All I can say is, remember that sometimes it is very difficult to do the right thing, especially when you are not completely sure that it is the right thing. But I think you have to weigh what you are feeling today against what is best for you and your potential children over the next several decades and beyond.
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
I don’t get it. If we’re analyzing all faiths on equal ground, would not Catholicism stand out? So why the worries?

What do you mean by “creating” a faith?

What is it about being an “adult” that makes Catholicism “really hard”? Plenty of adults convert to the Church.

Since our God has gifted us with free will, why insist so firmly on visiting the choice of parents upon the children with regards to something like this?

I don’t know about you, but I’m not particularly fond of the other religions doing this, so I can’t let my own off the hook, either.
Click to expand...
You and I are on different tracks. I seem to have to explain my thinking to you on nearly every thread we both reply on.

I’ll give you an analogy that I think fits fairly well.

Imagine a couple, one from France, one from Spain. They both speak each other’s language so there is no problem with communication between the two of them. They have a baby. They can’t decide what language to teach the baby so they leave the baby to grow up and decide for himself what language he wants to speak. In order not to overtly influence him, they avoid speaking to him directly. He grows up not being able to speak at all. He has no basis for a language in his life.

Actually, the analogy is incomplete, because in these situations, the atheist parent usually tears down the entire CONCEPT of faith in any form of deity. That is difficult to fight - not only is the parents’ influence in a child’s life VERY powerful, but once the “window” is closed, it’s hard to open again.

I am not doubting God’s ability to work miracles. But go talk to people whose parents “let them decide,” and see how difficult it is.
 
PaulGH said:
I think the bottom line is this: How important is it to you that your kids have a father who will be a shining example of the Catholic faith to them, rather than someone who is only barely willing to allow them to receive the sacraments?
Click to expand...
Yes, that IS the bottom line. And what you choose will affect not just your children, but THEIR children, and THEIR children, etc. My husband loves our sons, as much as he can, but as far as spiritual influence in their lives, he’s been able to give them NOTHING at all. I mean, NOTHING. How can he, when he doesn’t believe? He fakes it, at least he understands that they do need faith in their lives and hasn’t torn down what I have tried to build. But I am a revert also, and there are a lot of gaps in my own Catholic knowledge. I have only been a weak teacher of the Faith. Unless you have a ton of very faithful Catholic men and women surrounding you, at all phases of the childrens’ lives, their father or mother (atheist) is going to have more influence. Even WITH the support, that parents’ beliefs and opinions are hard to combat.

My husband has stayed mostly silent on matters of faith. No prayers with the boys, ever. No wise counsel. No working in the parish. A big void. The boys are to the point where they notice that Dad doesn’t go to confession, ever. That he does miss Mass sometimes, for no good reason. That even on our holiest day, Mass is viewed as “something to get over with as quickly as possible.” I expect that our younger son will ask questions at some point before long. Well, there’s not much I can say, except, “You will need to talk to your father about that.”

😦

I also worry deeply about his soul - when he stands and says the Creed, isn’t that a lie? When he receives the Eucharist, in a state of unbelief, doesn’t he damn himself to Hell? I pray for him, but I’m sure my prayers aren’t enough.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Yes, that IS the bottom line. And what you choose will affect not just your children, but THEIR children, and THEIR children, etc. My husband loves our sons, as much as he can, but as far as spiritual influence in their lives, he’s been able to give them NOTHING at all. I mean, NOTHING. How can he, when he doesn’t believe? He fakes it, at least he understands that they do need faith in their lives and hasn’t torn down what I have tried to build. But I am a revert also, and there are a lot of gaps in my own Catholic knowledge. I have only been a weak teacher of the Faith. Unless you have a ton of very faithful Catholic men and women surrounding you, at all phases of the childrens’ lives, their father or mother (atheist) is going to have more influence. Even WITH the support, that parents’ beliefs and opinions are hard to combat.

My husband has stayed mostly silent on matters of faith. No prayers with the boys, ever. No wise counsel. No working in the parish. A big void. The boys are to the point where they notice that Dad doesn’t go to confession, ever. That he does miss Mass sometimes, for no good reason. That even on our holiest day, Mass is viewed as “something to get over with as quickly as possible.” I expect that our younger son will ask questions at some point before long. Well, there’s not much I can say, except, “You will need to talk to your father about that.”

😦

I also worry deeply about his soul - when he stands and says the Creed, isn’t that a lie? When he receives the Eucharist, in a state of unbelief, doesn’t he damn himself to Hell? I pray for him, but I’m sure my prayers aren’t enough.
Click to expand...
*This is truly heartbreaking. Having read the other posts and especially this one I do think the OP should think deeply and pray extensively and carefully consider what she will do. My husband became a Catholic but my four children aren’t and I suffer!! My grandchildren are in another world! I pray and pray and pray and pray… I am having Masses said every month for them. I am hounding heaven. I baptised my grandchildren on the quiet. I really suffer.

Cinette*
 
flick26 said:
We have discussed contraception (I know the Catholic teaching says be open to life but I really don’t want more than two children) and also agreed on no pre-marital sex. He does not mind getting married in the Church (must be down to some of his dad’s influence) but it was actually him who warned me that the marriage would not be sacramental and not valid in the eyes of Catholicism and God(?). Yes he knows and he is a virgin.
Click to expand...
Actually it would be assumed valid but not Sacramental.
 
Hi and welcome to the forums!
Here is a link that has helped me in beginning the conversation with people who think "all religions are man made. So not true! While all Protestant denominations have a human founder, (see link) Jesus is the Founder of the Catholic Church. Please check this out:
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb4.htm

Best wishes!
Kathryn Ann:heaven:
 
If it bothers you now, it’s going to tear you up in 10 years when you are praying for your unborn child through a difficult pregnancy . . . and your husband does not. When you are in tears during your baby’s baptism . . . and your husband is ambivalent. When your father passes away and you are praying at his bedside . . . and your husband is on the other side of the room, not engaging because he doesn’t pray.

Love at 22 is so, so very different than at 32, 42, 52 . . . and then when you are old and hoping to die and be together with the Lord in heaven . . . and your husband will not because he doesn’t have a faith.

I refused to marry anyone who was not Catholic (not just Christian), because I wanted to share EVERYTHING with him, and I am so glad that I waited for the right person. I see people alone in church (and friends who have just given up going alone) and it makes me so sad, as my husband and I hold hands and join in prayer.

Please, you, your faith, and the faith of your children are sooooo worth waiting for the right person. If you are questioning it now, you may hold it against him later on. And if it is a heated discussion now, when the glitz of the ‘newness’ wears off (yes, even after 2 years), it could be a battle that could threaten your relationship. Remember, you are choosing a partner for a*** lifetime***!

It sounds like you already know the answer. After two years, the ‘heat’ is wearing off and you are looking at all of the details of the relationship and you are finding cracks in the armor. Thankfully you are not already married and you can begin to pull back and look at things with more clarity. Talking to a priest or a Christian counselor could help you sort out your feelings, too.

I’m sorry if I seem direct, I feel really strongly about this. In 26 years of marriage I have lost all but my core family and cannot begin to imagine how my husband and I could have endured the losses and sufferings . . . and shared the joys . . . we have had if we had not had our faith in God to hold us up.

Good luck and God Bless!
 
flick26 said:
So does this mean I should break up with my boyfriend of 2 years? I have invested my whole heart into this relationship and I have never met anyone who makes me feel happier. But I feel so conflicted and I wonder if we will run into trouble ten years down the line.

I wonder if anyone could offer me some advice or anecdotal stories or just anything really. Much appreciated, A 🙂
Click to expand...
There is a concept in investing called “throwing good money in after bad.” Lose the idea that you stay in a courtship relationship because you’ve spent too much time or “heart” in the courtship not to stay in it. IOW: Stay in it for positive reasons, not because you don’t have the courage to cut your losses and his. I mean really: Doesn’t your boyfriend deserve to be postively chosen, not settled for because you don’t like the idea of losing time and the emotions you’ve invested in him thus far? Don’t do anyone the insult of that kind of a favor! :tsktsk:

The Church does not forbid you from this kind of a marriage, but discourages it for good reason. As has been pointed out, the Sacraments of Initiation include Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation. If you’re planning on giving any of the sacraments short shrift or giving your child the impression that they are morally free to do so if it suits them, you’re planning on abdicating on your responsibility as a Catholic parent. You may not use an atheist co-parent as an excuse for that abdication, and you may not leave the non-Catholic parent in the dark concerning what your grave obligation is considered to be.

I married a non-Catholic who was baptised in another denomination and not catechised. He offers two points that you should consider:

a) My husband often sees that I need someone to share my beliefs with, and he can’t be that person. He is a jewel, he prays with us, he teaches are kids the faith not as “this is what the Church teaches” but using the language “this is true”, and it is still very hard for both of us, because he is not personally ready to become a Catholic. I love him to pieces, I would marry him again, but I will not soft-pedal how difficult that is. I know other women in the same position, and none of us find this easy. Actually, even being married to a lukewarm Catholic is no piece of cake.

b) He was raised by two baptised parents who believed but who had little or no religious observances in their home and who rarely took him to church. They went on Christmas and Easter and rarely any other time. He says going to church, especially in a Catholic church, feels like sitting for an exam without ever having taken the class or being in a public production without getting to go to rehearsals. He misses that he didn’t get a religious education. He wishes his parents had given him that.

You have to go into this with your eyes open: It is going to be hard and it is going to lower the chances that your children will practice the faith, chances that are already harmed by the mere culture we live in. You are not forbidden, but you are seriously cautioned to consider carefully whether you are going to do this and whether you have the resolve to remain faithful in what you are still obliged to do whether your spouse practices the faith, is lukewarm towards the faith, or actively opposes it. Take that obligation very seriously into account before you take any vows as serious as marriage. Your future husband and children, whoever they are, deserve not a single iota less.
 
Read the above post by EasterJoy very carefully, OP. She knows of what she speaks.

:sad_yes:
 
flick26 said:
I just want to make it clear that I have not surrendered to ANY of his concepts. My provisional idea on how to raise my future children was a decision I made long before I met him and it’s a decision that I have justified in previous posts. I think it is unfair that you are just assuming this.
Click to expand...
The dangers of unbelief are subtle. And in an intimate union with a professed atheist, you will most likely, and very subtly, discover the faith you had when you entered the union, is no longer the same faith you have years later. Not intentionally, but softly for love of consideration and compromise with your spouse. Why attack your faith with swords when he can use love more effectively, more subtly. And if you as an adult can protect yourself, how can a child who loves unconditionally NOT embrace the beliefs of his/her father while growing up? This union is not about your soul, it is about your soul and your childrens, who cannot protect themselves as you profess you can.
 
Arkansa(name removed by moderator) said:
If it bothers you now, it’s going to tear you up in 10 years when you are praying for your unborn child through a difficult pregnancy . . . and your husband does not. When you are in tears during your baby’s baptism . . . and your husband is ambivalent. When your father passes away and you are praying at his bedside . . . and your husband is on the other side of the room, not engaging because he doesn’t pray.

Love at 22 is so, so very different than at 32, 42, 52 . . . and then when you are old and hoping to die and be together with the Lord in heaven . . . and your husband will not because he doesn’t have a faith.

I refused to marry anyone who was not Catholic (not just Christian), because I wanted to share EVERYTHING with him, and I am so glad that I waited for the right person. I see people alone in church (and friends who have just given up going alone) and it makes me so sad, as my husband and I hold hands and join in prayer.

Please, you, your faith, and the faith of your children are sooooo worth waiting for the right person. If you are questioning it now, you may hold it against him later on. And if it is a heated discussion now, when the glitz of the ‘newness’ wears off (yes, even after 2 years), it could be a battle that could threaten your relationship. Remember, you are choosing a partner for a*** lifetime***!

It sounds like you already know the answer. After two years, the ‘heat’ is wearing off and you are looking at all of the details of the relationship and you are finding cracks in the armor. Thankfully you are not already married and you can begin to pull back and look at things with more clarity. Talking to a priest or a Christian counselor could help you sort out your feelings, too.

I’m sorry if I seem direct, I feel really strongly about this. In 26 years of marriage I have lost all but my core family and cannot begin to imagine how my husband and I could have endured the losses and sufferings . . . and shared the joys . . . we have had if we had not had our faith in God to hold us up.

Good luck and God Bless!
Click to expand...
*Although I have been extremely fortunate with my ex-atheist husband who today is a faithful daily communicant who constantly reads and learns more about the Church, I have to say that the case against such marriages is compelling. The risk is too high.

Look at me with my four children - only one is Christian (with an ex-Catholic wife who tore up 10 books he was reading which included Ratzinger’s encyclicals and early Church Fathers). I have no guarantee that my children would have been great Catholics - none at all because it was I who was not sufficiently formed in the Faith.

However, considering the case presented against such marriages in this forum I have to concede that the risk is too high.

God bless all
Cinette:) *
 
As a born and raised Catholic, the MOST important part of finding someone was making sure they were catholic. there is no way the kids would not be confused, i would say maybe you would have a chance if he was at least Christian. This generation saddens me and Im not that old, 27, bc especially here in the US. Everyone wants to make their own opinion on every single thing. Why ask why? We are raising our kids the way our parents did. Especially if he agrees with baptism, you are taking a vow to God that you will raise the child catholic, starting with the first sacrament, Baptism. Since you want advice, Leave him now while you can. Sorry. God Bless and Good Luck.
 
Julian0404 said:
The dangers of unbelief are subtle. And in an intimate union with a professed atheist, you will most likely, and very subtly, discover the faith you had when you entered the union, is no longer the same faith you have years later. Not intentionally, but softly for love of consideration and compromise with your spouse. Why attack your faith with swords when he can use love more effectively, more subtly. And if you as an adult can protect yourself, how can a child who loves unconditionally NOT embrace the beliefs of his/her father while growing up? This union is not about your soul, it is about your soul and your childrens, who cannot protect themselves as you profess you can.
Click to expand...
*What greater blessing and start to a marriage that begins with a Nuptial Mass where both parties receive not one but TWO sacraments at the same time. If the OP can appreciate that, it would be wonderful.

:)Cinette:)*
 
I am sorry that you grew up in a situation where your parents weren’t ‘plugged in’ to the power of God that He supplies in the sacraments. I grew up in a non-believing household. God wasn’t in the equation and one parent was alcoholic. God in his mercy (and the prayers of Catholics asking for the conversion of sinners) plugged me into the power of God. I came into the Church and the sacraments. I married a practicing Catholic man, my St. Joseph. I wish I could tell everyone that the 2 households are polar opposites. One was darkness and hopelessness, the other full of light and God’s presence. A Catholic man will honor his marriage, his commitments, his wife and family. When hard times come, he’ll be on his knees before the throne of God. He’ll bring blessing into his marriage, his family, his neighborhood and workplace. He’ll honor and cherish you all the days of his life, because he’s plugged into the power of God. Difficult situations can turn around because he’s a man of God.

Don’t settle for less than that. Together with a believing Catholic man, you can have a wonderful life together and come together holding hands when you come before God to give an account for your life. Strive to come into what God has prepared for you and trust in His love and goodness.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top