My Church has LGBTQ Vespers?

[Melodeonist]

I am shocked that a legit parish would have such a thing. Same sex attraction/actions and the like are gravely wrong. First, I’d ask the priest. If he accepts such immoral activities, I’d go then to the Bishop. If nothing is done, then your parish as a whole is basically committing the sin of scandal by making it seem that SSA and the like is okay. Personally, I’d feel I would have an obligation to stop such a gravely wrong thing if it were at my parish.

There are LOTS of Cafeteria Catholics out there. Unfortunately, from experience Cafeteria Catholics generally are very stubborn and won’t accept the Truth. We need to pray for them that their hearts may be softened to the Truth, and that conversion may come to them. There may be many, heck they may even be the majority. Even so, God never changes; PERIOD, no matter how much the CINOs want to change Him. We need to change ourselves to be like God completely.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I am shocked that a legit parish would have such a thing. Same sex attraction/actions and the like are gravely wrong. First, I’d ask the priest. If he accepts such immoral activities, I’d go then to the Bishop. If nothing is done, then your parish as a whole is basically committing the sin of scandal by making it seem that SSA and the like is okay. Personally, I’d feel I would have an obligation to stop such a gravely wrong thing if it were at my parish.

You are saying that SSA is “not okay” and “gravely wrong”. Are you familiar with what SSA means? Do you realize that you are saying something directly contrary to the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

 

[josh987654321]

Same sex attraction/actions and the like are gravely wrong.

Actions yes, but SSA is just a temptation, and we all suffer from different temptations, it’s giving into those temptations which are a sin and gravely wrong depending on what the temptation is.

First, I’d ask the priest. If he accepts such immoral activities

x2

I’d go then to the Bishop.

x2 and if the Bishop does nothing, just find another Catholic Church and ride it out until Christ restores His Church from such corruption.

then your parish as a whole is basically committing the sin of scandal by making it seem that SSA and the like is okay.

“and the like” is the crux of it, but SSA is simply a temptation, and as mentioned above, temptations aren’t sins.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading

 

[Rau]

but SSA is simply a temptation

Certainly it may give rise to temptations. Whether it can be pigeon-holed as simply as that is another question. Most of us can experience sexual attraction to the opposite sex and that attraction may or may not give rise to temptations.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Most of us can experience sexual attraction to the opposite sex and that attraction may or may not give rise to temptations.

Right. I know which sex I’m attracted to and most of the time it (the “attraction”) just sits there. Waiting. Once in a while it will perk up, like, “he’s interesting.” Same with SSA; it’s a persistant myth that same sex attracted people are interested undiscriminantly in every person if the same sex.

 

[DarkLight]

Same with SSA; it’s a persistant myth that same sex attracted people are interested undiscriminantly in every person if the same sex.

It’s a really really annoying myth for those of us with SSA, too, because it leads to a lot more issues dealing with other people if we’re open about it.

 

[LilyM]

If they do the same thing for every other sin then I’ll board the bandwagon.

Where are the Vespers for heroin addicts?

Where are the Matins for murderers?

What about Sext for sex addicts?

How about Lauds for adulterers?

Why does a Vespers Liturgy have to be transformed into a soapbox for LGBTQ people? Why can’t they attend a normal vespers?

Why does everything have to revolve around their disordered passions?

Go to Mass in a prison and most or all of the attendees will be members of one or a couple of these groups - and in prison and singled out precisely because of those sins.

We should encourage them because Christ said he came for sinners and the sick, not the.virtuous.

His church is a feast where vagabonds and lepers, prostitutes and tax collectors, are invited and welcomed.

Do they all repent? Maybe not immediately, maybe not ever. For all we know or are told, the woman caught in adultery may have gone back to her adultering despite Christ’s admonition. Judas certainly was welcomed to the last supper despite his continuing in sin.

I can’t see Christ being quite so at pains to exclude as some here.

 

[Rau]

Stunning to me to see what can only be called hatred toward the Gay community by so called Catholics.

Could you point out posts which express hatred. If a post is hateful, it should be reported.

 

[Joe_5859]

but right now it’s definitely most important to go back to Mass and get more in touch with the faith.

Not to pry, but are you saying that this was actually keeping you from going to Mass?

I can understand being wary of such a thing. Honestly, I can’t even imagine my pastor starting this up for fear that people would be scandalized exactly as you have been. But I sincerely hope you don’t let even just the imagined possibility that your pastor is encouraging sinful behavior keep you away from the Sunday Mass obligation. Frankly, even if your worst-case imagined scenario was true, that still shouldn’t keep us from going to Mass.

I’m glad you are meeting with a priest and hopefully he can assuage your fears. But even if he confirms your fears, where else would you go? We can’t just be Catholics at home. You said this is the only Catholic parish in your area. So you have to find a way to deal with it constructively. Staying away from Mass and the Church is not an option.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Staying away from Mass and the Church is not an option.

That’s why it is all the more disturbing on the part of this particular parish, being the only Catholic Church in the area, to host events that alienate, confuse, or scandalize portions of its parishioners.

 

[TN_Catholic]

Not to pry, but are you saying that this was actually keeping you from going to Mass?

I can understand being wary of such a thing. Honestly, I can’t even imagine my pastor starting this up for fear that people would be scandalized exactly as you have been. But I sincerely hope you don’t let even just the imagined possibility that your pastor is encouraging sinful behavior keep you away from the Sunday Mass obligation. Frankly, even if your worst-case imagined scenario was true, that still shouldn’t keep us from going to Mass.

I’ve been cycling through periods of adherence and faith crisis for the last 2 years. I got really close to leaving the Church completely for another faith, but I didn’t because the whole search made me realize that I really do believe in the Church.
I went to my church’s website to start brainstorming ways to get back involved and find contact information for the priests. That’s when I saw the LGBTQ Vespers, and it discouraged me some. However, I still went to All Saint’s Mass last night. It was great to be back in Mass, but it was conducted in a very Protestant-like style that didn’t make me feel much better about the parish.
I’m still going back Sunday, but this parish is definitely a bit discouraging for me and doesn’t make me feel great about my faith as someone with traditional leanings.

 

[TN_Catholic]

I do think it’s a little silly to say these outreaches are to be inclusive when they just wind up alienating other members. They do all these outreaches that seem to mostly touch base with lukewarm Catholics or just appease non-Catholics who view the Church as intolerant and backward for professing the Truth on moral matters. Why does the Church seem to care more about those people than the ones who have a clear vested interest in preserving the Church (and are honestly more likely to be active members who help further the goals of the Church)?

 

[Brendan]

I am shocked that a legit parish would have such a thing.

Which part is gravely wrong, for a parish to hold vespers, or to specifically invite those with SSA?

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

We don’t have “adultery vespers,” fornicator vespers," etc

You do realize that being gay is not a sin, right? Homosexuality is not a sin, to draw the parallel to “fornicator vespers” is just plain ole mean.

I never said having homosexual tendencies was sinful. OK, fine… “fornicator vespers” is mean… but having a “LGBTQ Vespers” can be equated to “I’m tempted to cheat on my wife Vespers”

We pray to God to deliver us from temptation, yet society wants to celebrate this temptation. The Church needs to minister to the LGBTQ community, but should do so in a way that does not give mixed messages.

Names matter. LGBTQ Vespers / Gay Vespers is a very confusing name, which could imply to some that the Church or that Parish does not support what the Catechism teaches about homosexuality.

Obviously, this name scandalizes me, because the name immediately makes me think that this parish is not supporting what the Church teaches and is instead giving into the “gay lobby.” Perhaps, I’m dead wrong. But that’s why names matter.

BTW - and I still don’t like any group having an advertised, private Vespers service.

NOW - if the name of the Vespers service was “Vespers for the intentions of the faithful suffering from same sex attraction” for “Vespers for the conversion of the LGBTQ community” then that would be a few examples of a non-scandalous names, which show (1) the Vespers is open to all and (2) for the benefit of the LGBTQ community.

God Bless.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I’m sorry, “gay vespers” is horrible. Vespers is part of the liturgy where we should be focused on God, not attachment to sexual sin.

The expression is odd perhaps, but the idea is not. We have mass for the sick, not sick Mass.

And this is why names matter. The name “Gay Vespers” does not say to me “Vespers to pray for the intentions and conversion of the gay community”

While I pray, that’s what this is, I honestly doubt it. I fear that this is simply a break from Catholic teaching: but I pray I’m 100% wrong.

I hope the OP will find out more and let us all know, because, as someone who has been sexually assaulted by two homosexual individuals as a teen, I’m extremely scandalized by this.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am glad to see your search is bringing you to belief in the Church. I am sorry you are experiencing discouragement. I know I have been blessed to always live in places where there are multiple Catholic parishes close by and they’ve all been pretty solid (though not without problems, of course).

I would still advise keeping an open mind and extending the benefit of the doubt. I grew up Catholic, but experienced a strong recommitment to my faith in college. When that happened, I went through a period where I felt like my eyes had finally been opened and I started to see things in parishes that I didn’t like and thought were wrong. Anytime I went somewhere new for Mass, I’d find myself evaluating whether or not the priest was wearing the amice to cover his collar, whether the candles were wax or oil, and a whole host of other “abuses” I was constantly on guard for. Frankly, it was exhausting. And I came to see that in many cases, I wasn’t even correct over what I thought was an “abuse.”

The devil wants to do whatever he can to steal our peace and drive a wedge between us and Christ and the Church. I think a common trick he plays—particularly on those who are starting to take the faith more seriously—is to get us to be constantly suspicious of our priests and fellow Catholics. Then we find that we go to Mass and spend more time in fear and discouragement than we do actually entering into the Paschal Mystery and focusing on God.

We are far better off if we presume good will rather than ill will. Right now, all you have to go off of is a tiny blurb on the parish website. Sure, it’s possible that your priest does not agree with Catholic teaching on the immorality of same sex activity. But that is not the only possibility. It is also reasonably possible that he has made the judgment call to reach out to a group of Catholics who are often disenfranchised not because he wants to confirm them in any sin they may (or may not) be committing, but because he wants to draw them closer to Christ. So given the choice between the two, we would do better to presume the latter rather than the former.

Certainly you can ask for clarification. But then you have to decide what you will do. If your worst fears are confirmed, is it worth leaving the Church because your pastor has a few theologically suspect opinions? As Peter said to Jesus when asked if the apostles would leave, “Lord, to who else shall we go?”

 

[TN_Catholic]

As Peter said to Jesus when asked if the apostles would leave, “Lord, to who else shall we go?”

Exactly. I posted another thread about lds and my adventures with them. Something about it just isn’t complete/doesn’t feel right. While the actions of people within the Church really test and discourage me sometimes, I firmly believe the Doctrine to be 100% sound. Other Christians (including LDS, I know some people don’t count them but I go ahead and let them have the label) always tell me and anyone else searching to look in the Scripture for answers, and Scripture seems to point to Rome any time I just open it up and read (as opposed to being fed select passages to help support a certain viewpoint).
I wish our Church were as firm and unified in basic moral truths as other churches and faiths were. The confusion, mixed messages, and seemingly high concentration of lukewarm individuals and internal divisions/heresies is what’s sent me out searching so many times. But there doesn’t really seem to be anywhere to go that I feel confident putting my soul into. I feel trapped between a rock and hard place. I want my children to grow up with good faith influences, not disordered confusion and priests who tell them it’s okay to be gay (as in lifestyle, not just having that tendency). By the time I have teenage children there might be Masses for the Support of Transwomen and Rosary Walks for Polygamist Asexuals. At least if I went LDS I wouldn’t have to worry about my children being taught gender theory at Sunday school.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I do think it’s a little silly to say these outreaches are to be inclusive when they just wind up alienating other members. They do all these outreaches that seem to mostly touch base with lukewarm Catholics or just appease non-Catholics who view the Church as intolerant and backward for professing the Truth on moral matters. Why does the Church seem to care more about those people than the ones who have a clear vested interest in preserving the Church (and are honestly more likely to be active members who help further the goals of the Church)?

It is well-nigh impossible that a gay person without a clear vested interest in preserving the Church would attend vespers. They have plenty of other places to go, if they want something other than genuine Christianity. This is not to say that every LGBT event in churches is orthodox – I wish that were the case, but it isn’t.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I wish our Church were as firm and unified in basic moral truths as other churches and faiths were.

As a practical matter, we have 1.28 billion Catholics in the world, from many different cultures. The only other religion with a similar number is Islam, and I understand it also has some diversity of viewpoints.

Whenever you have a huge religion operating all over the world and striving to be more inclusive all the time, it becomes much more difficult to have one nice neat little package. The other religions are much smaller and often more localized, and thus not dealing with so many expectations and situations.

I don’t think the Church is interested in getting more rigorous to the point of excluding people or even making them feel excluded - more the opposite, we are striving to bring people in.

 

[Cruciferi]

I miss the days when “Gay” meant happy