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Sister_Amy
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So, in other words, no?
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Sister_Amy
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You’re jumping to conclusions. The ayah doesn’t say Trinity anywhere, does it. Does it say “three” anywhere either? Nope.
It’s saying that to worship Jesus is wrong, and to worship Mary is wrong, and that Jesus never told people to do either. Hasn’t got a thing to do with the Trinity.
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Sister_Amy
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nablaise
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Sister Amy
I believe that those verses, and some others were protests by Mohammad against the Trinity or related teaching from Christians. I believe Mohammad had heard about it, and choose not to believe it. I agree with him because the Trinity as he understood it was not what the real Church was teaching. The true Church was not teaching that God has a wife or that God was once single and then got married somehow/where/when.
I believe that those verses, and some others were protests by Mohammad against the Trinity or related teaching from Christians. I believe Mohammad had heard about it, and choose not to believe it. I agree with him because the Trinity as he understood it was not what the real Church was teaching. The true Church was not teaching that God has a wife or that God was once single and then got married somehow/where/when.
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truthtester
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Prophet Muhammad is unique in many ways.He was the unlettered prophet (unlike Jesus) yet the divine book Quran today exists in its original language Arabic and in text.All sects of Islam have the same Quran in all times every where.Sadly all the other divine books either were lost in text but bible sadly in both,ie.language and text.Why?Because Jews who were out to humiliate and hurt Jeus made sure by entering their man Paul that the original copy in Aramaic be not only found and destroyed but people be scared so much that they should stop speaking Aramaic allthogehter.Don’t forget Jesus being an educated Rabbi wrote the gospel himself.
Prophet Muhammad came for the whole mankind while all other prophets came either for a specific area(Moses)or for a specific people(Jesus for Jews to bring them back from corruption).
We have today complete biography of Muhammad available.
If you want to know more about Islam and knowledge never hurts,watch www.thedeenshow.com.
Prophet Muhammad came for the whole mankind while all other prophets came either for a specific area(Moses)or for a specific people(Jesus for Jews to bring them back from corruption).
We have today complete biography of Muhammad available.
If you want to know more about Islam and knowledge never hurts,watch www.thedeenshow.com.
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Sister_Amy
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Eh? You believe those “verses” are protests against the Trinity? Based on what?
In fact, the Trinity (nor Christians, even, in the first) have nothing to do with those ayaat. As I’ll demonstrate.
For 6:100-101, the surah itself is Makki, so revealed before Muslims were actually themselves encountering Christians. So there’d be no cause to discuss the Trinity at all in the first place. If as many Christians here erroneously believe Muhammad was fabricating it all, then they have to square with how he heard about Christianity before actually coming into contact with Christians. Historically, logically it makes no sense.
Moreover, the causes for the revelation of these ayaat are known.
From Ibn Kathir: This Ayah refutes the idolators who worshipped others besides Allah and associated the Jinns with Him in worship. Glory be to Allah above this Shirk and Kufr. If someone asks, how did the idolators worship the Jinns, although they only were idol worshippers The answer is that in fact, **they worshipped the idols **by obeying the Jinns who commanded them to do so.
Clearly it has nothing to do with Christians, but rather it’s talking about the idol-worshippers in Makkah.
As for the other passage, 72:3, it’s also Makki, and is a saying of the jinn, talking about the jinn saying such things about Allah. Christians are humans, not jinn.
So yet again, this passage has nothing to do with Christians or the Trinity.
Jumping to that conclusion is jumping wildly out of context.
As for the third, it is the ones Christians most frequently fail to understand. In fact, it does allude to Christian practices, in particular worship of Jesus, and also worship of Mary (a long complicated topic, suffice to say that although Catholics claim not to worship Mary, according to the standard of Islam, their devotion and prayer to her is in fact considered worship.)
But the passage does NOT mention the Trinity.
In fact, the passage which DOES mention the Trinity (it’s 4:171) doesn’t say anything about a “wife” or “consort.”
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nablaise
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God’s natural language is truth. His Word is within Him for all eternity. His Word is more broad and far reaching than the lays of the sun. It is always with Him, and it reaches all places and all times at once. In it, all things were made and all things hold together. It reaches every creatures, from the lowest to the highest. It reaches you in your heart, at you from the creation outside of you, to you through the love of your friends and all good things God gave you. It is this Word, one Word, that contain your salvation and your judgment. It took on humanity that you may feel God’s closeness speaking your language.
God, to address us, spoke in human language. But human language is not just from the mouth, for humans have many other ways of expressing themselves, the full human language is spoken through the human body. So the Word became Man to the truth about every man of every time. The Word made Flesh is Jesus Christ, the Fullness of Revelation and last Prophet. If you turn to him you will find him. He is the Truth that you hear in your conscience and your heart. Don’t forsake him for those who can’t compare with him, who preach falsehood about him in their ignorance and illusions.
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nablaise
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Actually I had forgotten that there are other religions that believe in gods with families like Hinduism etc…
I have no doubts that his focus was on the idols of the Kaaba. But I know that there were Christians in Palestine and Ethiopia and Yemen. Saying that a merchant had never heard about them is very negligent in my opinion. Plus, I am sure those business people who went about the Kaaba had met Christians and knew about their particular belief.
I am not saying that he mentioned the Trinity. I don’t think he ever heard it preached properly considering where he was and what he preached.
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Aboveallbereal
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I started to type my real inner views having read reports from Indonesia…found I was being too honest…and stopped.
I wonder how many auticensor in the interests of harmony?
I wonder how many auticensor in the interests of harmony?
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nablaise
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Yes, I think I heard that one of his first followers was a Christian.
I also think that it could also be said that Mohammad himself was a sort of Christian (in the sense that he believed in Jesus). Just a sort of non-denominational Christian I think.
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Aboveallbereal
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You point to two of the abiding problems. The anti Jewishness which seems to be utterly visceral and the belief, inacccurate but probably honestly held, that islam is unchanging and thus static. this is deeply problematic in that it prevents growth and real engagement with the world.
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GaryTaylor
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We pray to the Saints too is that considered worship also?
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StevieD
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Well said, as Truthtester said “The truth never hurts”! I wonder if he has heard of Christoph Luxenburg whose very interesting research into the koran caused him to need to go into hiding. The muslims really seem to have a problem with research that no other religion seems to share. I wonder why (well not really).
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KathleenGee
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At the baptism of Christ, ministered by St. John the Baptist and witnessed by the John’s followers, a voice comes down from heaven saying, ‘This is my beloved son for whom I am well pleased’, and along with the voice the appearance of a dove over Christ…the symbol of the Holy Spirit.
So here in this theophany, we through the witness of the followers of John, verified by Christ and His specific calling of His apostles, we as well witness Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as One.
And in the language of the Church, instead of saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit three beings/Persons in One God, the Church simply calls this Mystery the Holy Trinity…different aspects of God bringing about the mission of the restoration of man through Christ…and in Christ, man’s restoration to his neighbor.
So here in this theophany, we through the witness of the followers of John, verified by Christ and His specific calling of His apostles, we as well witness Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as One.
And in the language of the Church, instead of saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit three beings/Persons in One God, the Church simply calls this Mystery the Holy Trinity…different aspects of God bringing about the mission of the restoration of man through Christ…and in Christ, man’s restoration to his neighbor.
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John_Paul_Jones
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Catholics do no worship Mary, for the fact they do not consider Mary a deity. Prayers to Mary are no more than petitions, supplications and intercession that go to God. Anyway you can’t knock the Catholic devotion to Mary, because muslims themselves are extremely devoted to muhammed. No matter who is the mediator, God is still the receives the prayer of the person* praying, so there isn’t any idolatry, let me chart it for you:
person ->Angels and Saints->Mary->Jesus Christ=**God **
person ->Mary->Jesus Christ=God
person ->Saints->Jesus Christ=God
person ->Angels->Jesus Christ=**God **
person ->Jesus Christ=God
*NB I used the word “person” - I don’t want it to appear only Catholics can pray to Mary or the angels & saints,
most muslims don’t believe in a mediator when praying to their allah
muslims->hubal aka allah
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nablaise
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Sister Amy
This sound prudent, as if he is not himself sure what Christians are talking about.
“say not, Three”
This sound prudent, as if he is not himself sure what Christians are talking about.
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KathleenGee
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Muslims are studying Christian fundamentalists opposition to Catholicism, not fully realizing that the Latin and Orthodox churches have held the same views although expressed differently, since the beginning of Christianity, and that Protestantism is 500 years old, and the Christian fundamentalism we are seeing primarily in the USA is only about 200 years old.
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Sister_Amy
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Jumping to conclusions without studying the facts (any of them) is a rookie mistake. One that Christians seem extra-prone to making, unfortunately.
I’m not saying Muhammad had never heard about Christians, I’m saying that he never had any reason to preach to them or about them, in any way. They weren’t among the Makkans, and that’s the important part. The parts of the Qur’an which deal with Christianity (there are a couple special exceptions which I won’t deal with right now) came during the Madinan period.
The Qur’an was revealed along the lifetime of Muhammad and the ayaat which were revealed had to deal with something going on at the time. In other words, they have a context. I provided the context for the ayaat mentioned, and it has nothing to do with Christianity. (Except the one, but it doesn’t have anything to do with Trinity, though it does deal with Christianity and is in a Madani surah.)
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Sister_Amy
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She wasn’t a Christian.
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