My view of "traditionalists"

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Exporter:
Your “list” was painted with a broadbrush, but all in all I commend you for the obvious time-consuming thought you must have given to it.

I think that I am a “Traditionalist”. No one has told me I am a “Tradionalist”. I don’t really know the definition of “Traditionalist”. I do know what “Old School” is in football parlance. It could be that “Old School” and “Traditionalist” are close to being cut of the same cloth.

I heard my first Mass in 1950 in Denver, CO at the Cathedral on Colfax Ave. I didn’t understand a word. But I knew it was something I wanted to understand. By 1955, with the aid of a St. Joseph’s Daily Missal I did understand. Latin was on the left page with English on the right page - I learned a little Latin that way. It was beautiful.

Why did I think it was beautiful? The reason was, here I was in 1955, hearing the same words that were used during worship 1900 years ago! It was the REAL THING. To me the fact that the very same original words were being said by the Priest carried me back closer to the first worshipers of God, Christ and the Holy Ghost. The closer the better.

If that makes me a “Traditionalist”, then so be it. Some few of you will say some words were changed, I don’t care…it’s the closest we have.
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Your arithmatic is off. First, 1955-1900ad = 55ad. The Tridentine Mass would not be codified for ~1500 years! Second, the Mass codified by the Council of Trent was considerably different from that which you took part in during 1955…

The Tridentine Mass as celebrated today from the 1962 missal is no more of a “REAL THING” than the Novus Ordo Mass of today.
 
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Exporter:
Why did I think it was beautiful? The reason was, here I was in 1955, hearing the same words that were used during worship 1900 years ago! It was the REAL THING. To me the fact that the very same original words were being said by the Priest carried me back closer to the first worshipers of God, Christ and the Holy Ghost. The closer the better.

If that makes me a “Traditionalist”, then so be it. Some few of you will say some words were changed, I don’t care…it’s the closest we have.
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Regardless of Fran’s objection to your math, well said. He can concern himself with the math, I choose to concern myself with the Mass… the valid NO, and the still valid TLM. My preferences are centered on reverance. So if a NO is said reverently, fine. If the TLM is said reverently, double fine.
 
Is anyone else tired of the “us vs. them” mentality here? Fransicum’s personal list of his observations are basically true, but someone could post a list of “liberal” positions that are not in line with Rome, and what would that accomplish? I believe in more positive thinking I guess. I do not attend TLM because I abhor the NO. I attend TLM because I like it. Just as someone who only attends the NO should attend it because he likes it, not because he can’t stand TLM. Both masses are approved by Rome. I think both are growing as well. That’s a good thing, isn’t it? One thing I must admit is that while Fransicum is very negative towards traditionalists and TLM(one more reference to “bullet-proof vests” and I’ll scream!), he does, on occassion, make me think, which is another good thing!🙂
 
I am in agreement with Exporter.

The Official verbal & written language of the Roman Rite is LATIN, which has been surpressed or eliminated from the Liturgy & prayers.

Compare the old Divine Office/Breviary to what is presented today.
Pope John Paul II stated in “Ecclesia Dei” that he respected the older traditions and would provide for those who are attached to them, but his very Bishops deny and hinder these promises, and the Vatican is slow to respond, but they very quickly back in 1965 - 1970 to institute the Mass of Pope Paul IV.

What has been the “fruit” of Vatican II ? A few good apples, but many with worms and bruises.

On one hand Rome tells the Eastern Catholics to hold true to their traditions, well the Roman Rite is in shambles and tradition is cast aside and forgotten.

james
 
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Franciscum:
Listed below is my list on why I’m more than just a bit skeptical about those who proclaim themselves to be “Traditional Catholics” (whatever that means.)

No this certainly does not apply to all Catholics who attend the Tridentine Mass, but it applies to a great many who see the “tlm” as some sort of panacea, while denigrating the Novus Ordo Mass in the process.
  • Many are not Catholic Christians. They belong to groups like the SSPX and they are thus driven to denigrate the Church.
  • Many of those that are indeed Catholic tend to be extremely heterodox. To them it’s not what the Church actually teaches – it’s what they think the Church should teach.
  • Many unjustly attack the Church and the Pope of Rome.
  • Many exhibit the effects of extremely poor (and narrow) catechesis and more generally, in their basic education.
  • Many view the “tlm” as some sort of silver bullet that would instantly cure every ill – if only allowed to do so.
  • Many have no clue just how abused the celebration of the “tlm” had become prior to Vatican Council II in many (most?) situations.
  • Many denigrate the Novus Ordo Mass based on ignorance (and crazy websites) versus what the Church actually directs.
  • Many exhibit a bitter “bunker mentality.” It’s not about love for God, but “hatred for Mahony.”
  • Many (most?) have no clue what the terms “liberal” and “conservative” actually mean.
  • Their collective efforts actually suppress the wider propagation of the “tlm” within the Church.
  • And lastly, many attempt to project the idea that they are more holy or more pius or better parents, citizens, etc. simply because they are “traditionalists.”
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have to agree with you the intellectual snobbery in some catholic churches is appalling regarding the novos ordo, i agree there is a place for the tridentine mass in the rc church but not at the expense of novus ordo, if you want to alienate todays mainly non latin speaking generation just keep rubbing our noses in the fact that you are the “real catholics”, i am also deeply offfended by tridentine catholics attitude to his holiness and the catholic church in general judging by comments poted here and other so called catholic forums and also at parish level
 
Not a "true religious and Catholic experience?" What does that mean? Did you just make that up? C’mon, be honest…
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The second item is a straw-man anlogous to: “It’s OK to beat people if it keeps you from shooting them.”
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I thought of the phraseology myself, but the concept was already out there. There are just a lot of Catholics out there which have no confidence in the novus ordo vernacular mass, and won’t attend as a result except at funerals and weddings. Only a small portion of this group of Catholics is involved in SSPX or other traditionalisms. At least the SSPX, for all of its exclusivity and other faults is at least addressing the problem.

I just don’t see the bishops really doing anything to explain the novus ordo to this large group of Catholics so they’ll understand it.
 
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Kielbasi:
I thought of the phraseology myself, but the concept was already out there. There are just a lot of Catholics out there which have no confidence in the novus ordo vernacular mass, and won’t attend as a result except at funerals and weddings. Only a small portion of this group of Catholics is involved in SSPX or other traditionalisms. At least the SSPX, for all of its exclusivity and other faults is at least addressing the problem.

I just don’t see the bishops really doing anything to explain the novus ordo to this large group of Catholics so they’ll understand it.
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how can n,o mass not be truly catholic especially the prayers at communion also the creed says it all really what can be more roman catholic than we beleive in one god, and other declaration one holy and apostolic church
 
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Kielbasi:
I just don’t see the bishops really doing anything to explain the novus ordo to this large group of Catholics so they’ll understand it.
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I$ it po$$ible they don’t know either. Be$ide$, they ju$t can’t afford to lo$e anyone.

And regardless of what happens… NO, or TLM… many more will leave the Church. Jeff Cavins said the only reason one leaves the Catholic Church is because he does not know what he is leaving. There in lies a difference between the proponets of the Mass.

Post VatII Catholics have no reference point to compare until the TLM is attended and explained to them. The let them compare and decide… both are valid.

Pre VatII Catholics not only wonder why the changes (ecumenism is showing to be a bad fruit excuse), but are becoming more and more aware of the fruits of abuses (see Reference of Leading Catholic Indicators).
 
I’m not saying that the novus ordo isn’t truly catholic, but that it hasn’t been taught to that large number of Catholics who are sitting at home on Sunday a.m.

It appears so different than the traditional rite, many of the people are understandingly confused and bewildered.
 
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Kielbasi:
I’m not saying that the novus ordo isn’t truly catholic, but that it hasn’t been taught to that large number of Catholics who are sitting at home on Sunday a.m.

It appears so different than the traditional rite, many of the people are understandingly confused and bewildered.
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That is part of the truth. But I think they are staying home on Sunday because my generation has reduced the importance and responsibility of being Catholic by not teaching, by becoming more Protestant, by allowing for off-the-cuff interpretations,… and on and on and on.
 
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MrS:
Regardless of Fran’s objection to your math, well said. He can concern himself with the math, I choose to concern myself with the Mass… the valid NO, and the still valid TLM. My preferences are centered on reverance. So if a NO is said reverently, fine. If the TLM is said reverently, double fine.
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“An Apologist in training” as you adverise yourself should be aware the Tridentine Mass is a 16th century development, not a first century development.
 
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MrS:
That is part of the truth. But I think they are staying home on Sunday because my generation has reduced the importance and responsibility of being Catholic by not teaching, by becoming more Protestant, by allowing for off-the-cuff interpretations,… and on and on and on.
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There is absolutely no question that one of the great (if not the greatest) ills of the Church is horrible catechesis. That, or it’s the cause of the greatest ills of the Church.

The ironic thing is that your postings exhibit an extremely poor understanding of the faith which I’m sure stems from poor catechesis. Not that you don’t make the effort, but as I have said before, I doubt you spend a great deal of time reading the Bible, the CCC, the Code of Canon Law or the Early Church Fathers, etc. You sound as though you are far more likely to surf extremist websites, or listen to choice bits of EWTN.

You then pass this on to those who know little or nothing of the faith and that’s tragic. It also perpetuates problems. Someone who advertises themselves as “an apologist in training” should know a great deal about the faith – certainly more than you have exhibited herein.
 
Franciscum said:
“An Apologist in training” as you adverise yourself should be aware the Tridentine Mass is a 16th century development, not a first century development.
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no problem here…I am not a Historian in training, nor a mathematician in training. The “in training” will continue until the day I die, as will yours I trust?
 
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Franciscum:
There is absolutely no question that one of the great (if not the greatest) ills of the Church is horrible catechesis. That, or it’s the cause of the greatest ills of the Church.

The ironic thing is that your postings exhibit an extremely poor understanding of the faith which I’m sure stems from poor catechesis. Not that you don’t make the effort, but as I have said before, I doubt you spend a great deal of time reading the Bible, the CCC, the Code of Canon Law or the Early Church Fathers, etc. You sound as though you are far more likely to surf extremist websites, or listen to choice bits of EWTN.

You then pass this on to those who know little or nothing of the faith and that’s tragic. It also perpetuates problems. Someone who advertises themselves as “an apologist in training” should know a great deal about the faith – certainly more than you have exhibited herein.
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Let me be the first to admit I know very little… because there is so much to know. I have no aspirations to achieve your ego.

Hope the moderators never ban you… you are doing a great job at what you do… and also making a lot a posters look even better.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
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MrS:
I$ it po$$ible they don’t know either. Be$ide$, they ju$t can’t afford to lo$e anyone.

And regardless of what happens… NO, or TLM… many more will leave the Church. Jeff Cavins said the only reason one leaves the Catholic Church is because he does not know what he is leaving. There in lies a difference between the proponets of the Mass.

Post VatII Catholics have no reference point to compare until the TLM is attended and explained to them. The let them compare and decide… both are valid.

Pre VatII Catholics not only wonder why the changes (ecumenism is showing to be a bad fruit excuse), but are becoming more and more aware of the fruits of abuses (see Reference of Leading Catholic Indicators).
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Your comments are simply not sustainable.

Why are you suggesting that “post VatII” Catholics (or any Catholics for that matter) need to compare the Tridentine Mass to the Novus Ordo Mass? Is there even a reason other than your own personal desire? I have never heard the Pope extort Catholics to attend the Tridentine Mass so they can “compare.”

Sure, both are certainly valid, but the huge majority of Catholics could care less about about the “changes” from one Mass to the other. Catechesis time would be far better spent elsewhere.

Finally, your comments of ecumenism smack strongly of the views most often offered by extremeist websites.
 
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Franciscum:
Your comments are simply not sustainable.

Why are you suggesting that “post VatII” Catholics (or any Catholics for that matter) need to compare the Tridentine Mass to the Novus Ordo Mass? Is there even a reason other than your own personal desire? I have never heard the Pope extort Catholics to attend the Tridentine Mass so they can “compare.”

Sure, both are certainly valid, but the huge majority of Catholics could care less about about the “changes” from one Mass to the other. Catechesis time would be far better spent elsewhere.

Finally, your comments of ecumenism smack strongly of the views most often offered by extremeist websites.
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I’m sorry… you read into my posts your agenda, not mine. Are you trying to bait me? If so, at least say something important.
Don’t know about which websites you are referring to. Perhaps you can misinstuct us on that too.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtnova
*I am not judging anyone who attends the Novus Ordo, as that would be calumny, but there is nothing sacred, nothing religious, nothing pius, nothing that came from our Lord that is part of this travesty that you call a Mass *

Mr. S,
Do you condone these remarks?

never mind-- I did see that you answered on the other thread.
thanks 🙂

Peace.
 
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Kielbasi:
I thought of the phraseology myself, but the concept was already out there. **There are just a lot of Catholics out there which have no confidence in the novus ordo vernacular mass, and won’t attend as a result except at funerals and weddings. **Only a small portion of this group of Catholics is involved in SSPX or other traditionalisms. At least the SSPX, for all of its exclusivity and other faults is at least addressing the problem.

I just don’t see the bishops really doing anything to explain the novus ordo to this large group of Catholics so they’ll understand it.
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“A lot?” Any idea how many? I know very few Catholics who no longer attend the Mass because of change to the Pauline Mass.

The Novus Ordo Mass was prommulgated in 1969. Over 35 years ago. There are fewer and fewer Catholics around who ever even attended the pre vatican II format. I think the Bishops have done as much catechesis on the new Mass as they ever did on the old Mass.
 
shannon e:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtnova
*I am not judging anyone who attends the Novus Ordo, as that would be calumny, but there is nothing sacred, nothing religious, nothing pius, nothing that came from our Lord that is part of this travesty that you call a Mass *

Mr. S,
Do you condone these remarks?

Peace.
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nope, I ignored them till you asked… why do you ask? jtnova was certainly zealous in his/her posts, and certainly provoked others.

I attend the NO about 4-5 times weekly, and the TLM whenever I can.
 
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