My view of "traditionalists"

[terrcatholic]

Bingo…my sentiments exactly. I see catholics on this very board under different religions or whatever topics praising Martin Luther and hoping that the Catholic Church, in the Spirit of Vatican II, can make more inroads and “concessions” to the Lutherans to bring them back into the so called fold, but that is all Ok. Our Pope also made some statement that the Eastern Orthodox and Protestants are no longer schismatic because it is like over 200 years or something since the schism occured, but be you a Catholic who uphold the church teachings as they were pre 1962…you are labeled a schismatic, Figure that out. Is the church now a different church than what Our Lord and the Apostles died for just because a Pope named John XXIII and Paul VI decided so? Confusion…

aspawloski4th:

ok I read what the pope said about sspx. but why not the same or more harsh treatment for " call to action, or catholics for free choice" then? what those 2 groups are doing is light years more grave than sspx. I propose to all reading that being a member of either of those 2 groups is no better than being a member of the church of Satan! our double standards have got to end, and end now. where was the excommunication for john kerry? he is worse than sspx. It seem we leave the liberal schizmatics alone, while we are burning the conservative side at the stake. are we afraid of a little traditionalism?whats next made up spontainious prayer during Mass? I tell you the more I go to Mass these days, sometimes even when the priest is considered conservative, the less catholic I feel, little by little. if you aask why just look at my first post on this thread. now I cant remember the last time I heard the word sin in a homily( not sermon like the protestants say).I tell you if the time machine is ever invented Im gone from this time. to the 1950s or anything erlier. these modern times are dangerous to a souls health.

 

[aspawloski4th]

what Id like from several people from different points of view. first take out the so called violations of cannon law that sspx allegedly committed, having to do with bishop lefevbre apointing his bishops yada yada. tell me other than those technicalities, whats wrong with sspx, and they way they do things. to me it sounds more ideal than I could come up with on my own. people that live a true catholic life, and being american is secondary to being catholic, Mass thats uniform with no abuses, sin and hell are taught about, purgatory is taught about. I know one isnt supposed to go to Mass to get something out of it, but Id get much more out of sspx,than Im getting out of church now. that is a better situation by far than any parrish I currently know of. Ohwell all that good stuff and its a sin for me to associate with it, doesnt surprise me in this perverted day and age.

 

[bear06]

If you click on the link above you will find that all Jan Wakelin did was quote the good cardinal’s boss, Pope John Paul II.

What above link?

I totally understand how you feel about some of these nutty pseudo- Catholics groups. Still the soultion is to be faithful to our Pope and not join a nutty pseudo-Catholic group of a different flavor.

Amen! It’s amazing that if you are against the schismatic mentality of SSPX that you are suddenly a Catholics for Free Choice. Give me a break. I’ve worked hard to make sure that the likes of these types of groups are fought against as much as the SSPX.

 

[bear06]

However, they still hold to all the DE FIDE of the historical Church. Which is good.

See, all that glitters is not gold. Saying “we hold fast to DE FIDE of the historical Church but”… Is not a good thing. There are no buts.

I dearly love many of the people at the SSPX Mass, and my heart bleeds for them as they feel sincerely that they are not fed the Faith of their Fathers in the VAT II Church.
I pray that this will be resolved to the delight of Our Lord, soon

Amen!

 

[bear06]

Our Pope also made some statement that the Eastern Orthodox and Protestants are no longer schismatic because it is like over 200 years or something since the schism occured

,

This is because you cannot be born into schism. Check some of Deacon Ed’s postings on this. It doesn’t mean that these churches are in union with Rome. It just means that they are no longer canonically described as schismatic.

Is the church now a different church than what Our Lord and the Apostles died for just because a Pope named John XXIII and Paul VI decided so?

The real question is "Is the Church now a different church than what Our Lord and the Apostles dies for just because Marcel Lefebvre decided so?

 

[bear06]

aspawloski4th:

what Id like from several people from different points of view. first take out the so called violations of cannon law that sspx allegedly committed, having to do with bishop lefevbre apointing his bishops yada yada. tell me other than those technicalities, whats wrong with sspx, and they way they do things. to me it sounds more ideal than I could come up with on my own. people that live a true catholic life, and being american is secondary to being catholic, Mass thats uniform with no abuses, sin and hell are taught about, purgatory is taught about. I know one isnt supposed to go to Mass to get something out of it, but Id get much more out of sspx,than Im getting out of church now. that is a better situation by far than any parrish I currently know of. Ohwell all that good stuff and its a sin for me to associate with it, doesnt surprise me in this perverted day and age.

I suggest you do a search on SSPX on the forums because people have addressed your questions many times and the answers are numerous. Also, I’d suggest you find a different church to attend. We complain about all of the liberal crud that was allowed under our old bishop but we’ve always had a few churches that we could attend that were very reverent. I just attended a Pauline Mass today full of incense and chant. They do exist.

 

[Kielbasi]

Traditionalism ISN’T a threat, to the novus ordo /English mass. Yet, it seems to be treated as such for reasons unknown.

In the United States, there are only fifty (50) SSPX priests in the whole country, they could fit in my living room. Compare that to the 46,000 novus ordo Catholic priests across the fruited plain. The SSPX is outnumbered by a thousand to one.

Even the indult face of traditionalism is microscopic in size. Only about 200 of the 20,000 American Catholic parishes have the indult you should know, about 1%, that’s it.

The whole thing is like an elephant arguing with a flea.

 

[MaggieOH]

As one who has been insulted by the ultra-traditionalists in the past, the first thing I want to say is that Franciscum has made some valid points about some of those who constantly berate others about their point of view. Nothing like being called a heretic vixen

Where I disagree with Franciscum is his depiction of this coming from the SSPX. For the most part the SSPX people are very genuine in their beliefs, even if they sometimes go too far. I disagree because the group that is truly schismatic and have therefore placed themselves outside of the Church is the one known as “THE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH”.

I fit into the category of someone who has experienced both Masses, since I was born in 1954. I can never understand the comment about there being more reverence in the TLM because my own experience says that this is not so. However, that does not mean that people who now go to a TLM are not telling the truth about their experience during the Mass.

From my own personal viewpoint, I prefer the Vernacular Mass over the Latin Mass. Reverence in Church is in the eye of the beholder. I attend Mass every day of the week. I am not there to criticize the priests who are the celebrants of the Mass. I am there to praise God and to make an offering to Him through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

On both sides of the fence there are too many who have fallen into legalism. I abhor the attitude of the liberal wing of the Catholic Church, and I have no time for the feminists.

MaggieOH

 

[pnewton]

Kielbasi:

Traditionalism ISN’T a threat, to the novus ordo /English mass. Yet, it seems to be treated as such for reasons unknown.

This is and excellent point that needs to be reiterated every few days. The last thing we need is an “us vs. them” mentality. I would delight to see the spread of the TLM in my diocese (as I want to see the Mass spread in any form).

The reaction against the large majority of traditionalist should not be tainted by the few that go so far as reject the Church. This is just as unfair as viewing all orthodox Catholics that follow the current Mass, in the same category of Call to Action and Catholics for a Free Choice.

 

[bear06]

pnewton:

This is and excellent point that needs to be reiterated every few days. The last thing we need is an “us vs. them” mentality. I would delight to see the spread of the TLM in my diocese (as I want to see the Mass spread in any form).

The reaction against the large majority of traditionalist should not be tainted by the few that go so far as reject the Church. This is just as unfair as viewing all orthodox Catholics that follow the current Mass, in the same category of Call to Action and Catholics for a Free Choice.

I agree that the us vs. them attitude has got to go. I don’t have a problem with the TLM being spread in my diocese either. This is why I’ve suggested time and again that we be a little more proactive and try and help those who would like an indult by sharing how it’s been done. Nobody want to do this though. They just want to continue bashing the Pauline Mass.

I don’t like lumping all “Traditionalists” in the same boat either. That’s why I try and categorize “Trads” and “rad-Trads”. However, I have to say that, at least in my area and seemingly on these forums, the majority of the “Traditionalists” seem to be “rad-Trads” attacking the Pauline Mass and VII at most, if not all, turns. Now, if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it! I’m not saying that you all do this but most do.

I have a feeling this is where you get the dander up of people like Fanciscum. If you simply talked about the beauty, what you like about the TLM or what you “get out of it” then nobody would have a problem.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

cainem:

have to agree with you the intellectual snobbery in some catholic churches is appalling regarding the novos ordo, i agree there is a place for the tridentine mass in the rc church but not at the expense of novus ordo, if you want to alienate todays mainly non latin speaking generation just keep rubbing our noses in the fact that you are the “real catholics”, i am also deeply offfended by tridentine catholics attitude to his holiness and the catholic church in general judging by comments poted here and other so called catholic forums and also at parish level

Perhaps this may seem minor to some people, but I, in turn, am deeply offended by your failure to use uppercase letters when speaking of His Holiness, Catholic(s) and even Latin and the Novus Ordo. Have you never been taught that deliberate violation of such things indicates a snobbish put-down of those whom you are condescending to inform?

I am also most curious to know to whom you are comparing “today’s (note apostrophe), mainly non Latin speaking generation!” Pray tell, who are the ones (that minority, I gather), who are currently “speaking” Latin? In fact, who exactly has been speaking “mainly” Latin for let’s say, the last few hundred years?

Inquiring traditionalists want to know!

Anna

PS If I recall correctly, you also appear to contradict Francisco’s belief that the general education level of traditional Catholics is below that of the rest of the flock! :tsktsk: A.

 

[pnewton]

bear06:

I . However, I have to say that, at least in my area and seemingly on these forums, the majority of the “Traditionalists” seem to be “rad-Trads” attacking the Pauline Mass and VII at most, if not all, turns. .

I wonder if the lack of indult Masses may be caused in part by those who push so hard for the TLM that they deny any other Mass. If I was a bishop I would be hard pressed to allow a priest to say the TLM who denied the legitimacy of the current Mass. This is one way discipline is maintained and heresy addressed.

 

[bear06]

I wonder if the lack of indult Masses may be caused in part by those who push so hard for the TLM that they deny any other Mass. If I was a bishop I would be hard pressed to allow a priest to say the TLM who denied the legitimacy of the current Mass. This is one way discipline is maintained and heresy addressed.

This is my point exactly! I live in what’s one of the most liberal dioceses (however our new bishop is painstakingly turning this around) next to Rochester. Most of the crud exported to your dioceses began here. We even had an idult under the “old regime”. Our pastor, a very fire and brimstone Slovenian, worked very quietly and respectfully to get the indult. He started by showing an interest in the Novus Ordo in latin and after a few years showed the interest in the Tridentine. He didn’t go to the bishop insisting that he had a rite to have the indult for his parishoners. He didn’t rally people to barnstorm the chancellory, etc. He simply showed the interest and asked respectfully. If this can be done in my diocese, I’m pretty sure it can be done in most. Right or wrong, bishops don’t want people railing against them.

 

[bear06]

Perhaps this may seem minor to some people, but I, in turn, am deeply offended by your failure to use uppercase letters when speaking of His Holiness, Catholic(s) and even Latin and the Novus Ordo. Have you never been taught that deliberate violation of such things indicates a snobbish put-down of those whom you are condescending to inform?

It does seem minor to me. I wouldn’t jump to conclusions. Some of us sometimes have to type with babies in our laps. Shifting is sometimes impossible. How come you didn’t pick on the Trads who didn’t capitalize Cardinal Ratzinger’s name a few posts back?

 

[cainem]

Anna Elizabeth:

Perhaps this may seem minor to some people, but I, in turn, am deeply offended by your failure to use uppercase letters when speaking of His Holiness, Catholic(s) and even Latin and the Novus Ordo. Have you never been taught that deliberate violation of such things indicates a snobbish put-down of those whom you are condescending to inform?

I am also most curious to know to whom you are comparing “today’s (note apostrophe), mainly non Latin speaking generation!” Pray tell, who are the ones (that minority, I gather), who are currently “speaking” Latin? In fact, who exactly has been speaking “mainly” Latin for let’s say, the last few hundred years?

Inquiring traditionalists want to know!pardon me for my inadequate key board skills, but if i wanted something posted today it will have to stay like this until i get my speed up

Anna

PS If I recall correctly, you also appear to contradict Francisco’s belief that the general education level of traditional Catholics is below that of the rest of the flock! :tsktsk: A.

 

[cainem]

Anna Elizabeth:

Perhaps this may seem minor to some people, but I, in turn, am deeply offended by your failure to use uppercase letters when speaking of His Holiness, Catholic(s) and even Latin and the Novus Ordo. Have you never been taught that deliberate violation of such things indicates a snobbish put-down of those whom you are condescending to inform?

I am also most curious to know to whom you are comparing “today’s (note apostrophe), mainly non Latin speaking generation!” Pray tell, who are the ones (that minority, I gather), who are currently “speaking” Latin? In fact, who exactly has been speaking “mainly” Latin for let’s say, the last few hundred years?

Inquiring traditionalists want to know!

Anna

PS If I recall correctly, you also appear to contradict Francisco’s belief that the general education level of traditional Catholics is below that of the rest of the flock! :tsktsk: A./QUOTE pardon me for my inadequate key board skills still not pc literate yet, if you ever met me snobbish is one word that would not spring to mind, the latin speaking minority are the highly educated/professional types who attend my parish and other catholic functions, who seem to think the no is a serious error just like some of the posters on this site, perhaps you should read some of the threads vat2= freemasonry posted by marines just to mention one

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

kwitz:

I have to disagree with you here. If I woke up tomorrow and was told that only the TLM existed from hence forth by an official authority of the Church, I’d go learn latin. If I woke up tomorrow and was told I had to do hand springs to receive Communion, I’d sign up for gymnastic lessons. My point, is that even though I have preferences, I would submit to the Authority of the Church whether that matched my preferences (or athletic skills!!).

Kris

I’m very sorry but this is a bit … creepy. Just where would you draw the line? Are you honestly suggesting that you would submit to ANYTHING that His Holiness says?

Granted, we are protected from error in dogma, but discipline is a different matter. You elevate man too far, to the point of Popolotry.

 

[bear06]

Munda cor meum:

I’m very sorry but this is a bit … creepy. Just where would you draw the line? Are you honestly suggesting that you would submit to ANYTHING that His Holiness says?

Granted, we are protected from error in dogma, but discipline is a different matter. You elevate man too far, to the point of Popolotry.

Can I answer? I’d submit to the Pope in anything regarding Faith and Morals or disciplines of the Church unless I knew for sure it was a sin. Can you cite something showing me I’m wrong?

 

[kwitz]

Munda cor meum:

I’m very sorry but this is a bit … creepy. Just where would you draw the line? Are you honestly suggesting that you would submit to ANYTHING that His Holiness says?

Granted, we are protected from error in dogma, but discipline is a different matter. You elevate man too far, to the point of Popolotry.

I purposely chose an example “way out there” as an exageration but the point is on target. We are to submit to the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. Can we be led astray in a discipline? Probably, but I wouldn’t be culpable of sin if this happened. If you go too far the other way and question everything the Pope says, then you end up with individual popes making personal decisions and interpretations (ie, protestantism).

Kris

 

[bear06]

kwitz:

I purposely chose an example “way out there” as an exageration but the point is on target. We are to submit to the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. Can we be led astray in a discipline? Probably, but I wouldn’t be culpable of sin if this happened. If you go too far the other way and question everything the Pope says, then you end up with individual popes making personal decisions and interpretations (ie, protestantism).

Kris

Yes!!! They only way we would be sinning is if we followed and we KNEW it was a sin. People have suggested that the Pope is sinning and yet when you ask them to cite a specific instance of his sins, suddenly you hear the crickets chirping. I’m rather sick of these veiled accusations. I think the term “put up or shut up” is perfect for this situation.