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Franciscum
Guest
Well said, although I rarely see anything of intellectual origin emminating from the extremists.
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katherine2
Guest
I think Fran has a point, particularly given the use of the qualifer “many” in his original post. Some of the good people here who say they don’t fit his description I would think is due that they seem to be a different animal than those for whom the former Mass ritual is more than a preference.
But I will take up my assigned role as an old lady who was for the Liturgical Movement before the Council and lived through it.
To what ever degree neo-traditionalists have now embraced liturgical pluralism, this was not something the conservatives had any tolerance of at the time of the Council.
Progressive Catholics were quite open to a variety of liturgical styles and I would say most of us were suprised of the uniformity that followed.
However, conservative Catholics, however relucantly they may have been about the renewal, were firmly of the school of “if this is the way we are going to do it now, then EVERYONE is going to do it this way.”
if the neo-trads are unhappy, they should point the finger at Cardinal Spellman and the like rather than the proponenets of the liturgical renewal.
But I will take up my assigned role as an old lady who was for the Liturgical Movement before the Council and lived through it.
To what ever degree neo-traditionalists have now embraced liturgical pluralism, this was not something the conservatives had any tolerance of at the time of the Council.
Progressive Catholics were quite open to a variety of liturgical styles and I would say most of us were suprised of the uniformity that followed.
However, conservative Catholics, however relucantly they may have been about the renewal, were firmly of the school of “if this is the way we are going to do it now, then EVERYONE is going to do it this way.”
if the neo-trads are unhappy, they should point the finger at Cardinal Spellman and the like rather than the proponenets of the liturgical renewal.
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Franciscum
Guest
There you go again…Is anyone else tired of the “us vs. them” mentality here? Fransicum’s personal list of his observations are basically true, but someone could post a list of “liberal” positions that are not in line with Rome, and what would that accomplish? I believe in more positive thinking I guess. I do not attend TLM because I abhor the NO. I attend TLM because I like it. Just as someone who only attends the NO should attend it because he likes it, not because he can’t stand TLM. Both masses are approved by Rome. I think both are growing as well. That’s a good thing, isn’t it? One thing I must admit is that while Fransicum is very negative towards traditionalists and TLM(one more reference to “bullet-proof vests” and I’ll scream!), he does, on occassion, make me think, which is another good thing!
Attempting to use the word “liberal” in an incorrect manner.
Someone posted on another thread that one was branded a “liberal” back in the 1950’s if they attended the high Mass, versus the low Mass. Quite true and unbelieveable to people like you who misuse the word.
The bottom line is this. Being a “conservative” or a “traditionalist” in no way means that one will also be an orthodox Catholic.
Plenty of “conservative traditionalists” who whine about issues that are indeed allowed by the Church – even if they do not meet the individual tastes of those doing the whining…
P.S. I really enjoy attending the Tridentine Mass. It is a regular part of my spiritual nourishment. My only problems are with the “traditonalists” who act in such extreme and odd ways that they actually limit the growth of the indult in many cases.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I believe by now it is a custom having the force of law.
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terrcatholic
Guest
Franciscum
I agree, leaving the church is not the answer, if we all ran away then that accomplishes nothing and we all need to be united. You seem very intellectual and devoted to the Pauline Mass, now that I understand it is the New Mass and that is great as I go also, but think to yourself if you woke up tomorrow and you read in the church bulletin that the mass you Loved so dearly was never going to be said again and if a priest was caught saying it, and this is like 18 years later till today without his Bishops permission he would be banned, like the priest in Texas. They have a beef, and a point if you put yourself in their shoes. What is the saying, dont judge till you walk a mile in a mans (or womans) mocassins? To outlaw a Mass is almost like Russia and Communism in their suprression of the Church. It just makes you question what is the fear the church had of the TLM and why was it banned and actually really not readily available, thats all.
Franciscum:
I agree, leaving the church is not the answer, if we all ran away then that accomplishes nothing and we all need to be united. You seem very intellectual and devoted to the Pauline Mass, now that I understand it is the New Mass and that is great as I go also, but think to yourself if you woke up tomorrow and you read in the church bulletin that the mass you Loved so dearly was never going to be said again and if a priest was caught saying it, and this is like 18 years later till today without his Bishops permission he would be banned, like the priest in Texas. They have a beef, and a point if you put yourself in their shoes. What is the saying, dont judge till you walk a mile in a mans (or womans) mocassins? To outlaw a Mass is almost like Russia and Communism in their suprression of the Church. It just makes you question what is the fear the church had of the TLM and why was it banned and actually really not readily available, thats all.
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shannon_e
Guest
I went and re-skimmed both threads. I had inadvertently attributed some anti-NO (not just pro-TLM) to you… sorry.
However, Both you and Franciscum revere the TLM. Both of you attend the NO Mass.
You appear to be against the same kind of anti- NO, snobbish attitude that he is-- why are you fighting?
I would hope that you aren’t jumping in to just poke the fire to see what flares up…
Peace.
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MrS
Guest
shannon e:
I think I am more of a Traditionalist than not, because I grew up with long standing Traditions which I left and have returned to. Only God knows why the path back to the TLM includes the NO. Or perhaps it is best. I look at the fruits… and am truly saddened. So I tend to be judgmental of the actions of other. Not fighting, just discussing. - in training
Franciscum starts these threads, so I guess we are all “jumping in” to respond with opinion and viewpoint. Sadly, I think, Franciscum has had a run in with those he calls traditionalists. And this means he will have to comment as he does. Oh well
I think I am more of a Traditionalist than not, because I grew up with long standing Traditions which I left and have returned to. Only God knows why the path back to the TLM includes the NO. Or perhaps it is best. I look at the fruits… and am truly saddened. So I tend to be judgmental of the actions of other. Not fighting, just discussing. - in training
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terrcatholic
Guest
Shanon, if I understand what I have read correctly, Franciscum is not for the TLM, and I dont think Mr. S is that kind of person to try to egg him on, he is just saying how she and many feel. Re-read some of his past writings, which have been very very emotional and pro-Novus Ordo. To say that you are uppity becase you like the culture and history associated with a Mass that was the mass for centuries I think is a little out of line and gives the traditionalists fuel for their fire, as that is what they say to me as they say that I cant have it both ways, etc etc
shannon e:
shannon e:
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shannon_e
Guest
Franciscum has made it quite clear that he reveres the TLM.
For example:
It is uppity and snobbish if your preferences include the denigration of another’s preference. (of course, both ought to be valid-- otherwise the comparison under the best of circumstances is moot)
Peace.
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Kielbasi
Guest
Its difficult to say with precision how many don’t attend because of the new mass, but I have to think its a lot. The vast majority of Catholics nowadays aren’t in attendance weekly, and the number in attendance dropped like a rock with the introduction of the English mass. Although I’m sure in many cases, there were different and multiple reasons for their non-attendance.
Now, in 2004, you’re correct that many of the pre-vii Catholics have died, but they have passed on their lackadaisical religious attitudes to their offspring and a new generation. Those people as well need to be reached.
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Franciscum
Guest
I am devoted to Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church. I enjoy all the liturgies, be they the Novus Ordo or Tridentine Masses, the Anglican-Use Mass (perhaps my all-time favorite), the other relatively obscure Masses within the latin Rite or the different Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies. What I do not like are those that use the Tidentine Mass as a devisive wedge in the Church.
The Church did a horrible job in implementing the new Mass and the Vatican Council II reforms. They did an even worse job at communicating with the faithful, and finally, they picked a particularly septic period in which to make these changes.
That said, I FULLY understand why the Church went with the “out with the old, in with the new” policy of implementing the Mass. Sadly it was done in a horrible manner.
Keep in mind that change was not overnight however. The dialogue Mass in the vernacular had been in place for quite a while and there were attempts at training both clerics and the laity with respect to the new Mass.
Make no mistake however, if the Church said to no longer celebrate the Tridentine Mass and only the Novus Ordo Mass, any cleric defying that instruction should have been disciplined. We are used to living in a democracy, but the Church is a theocracy. What it says goes because it’s the Presence of Jesus Christ on Earth. It’s not driven by the ego of select priests like the one you mentioned.
Finally, in many cases, I think the Tridentine Mass only became beloved and “special” to a great many once it became supressed…
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MrS
Guest
Agreed and agreed.
Even in my parish, which most considerr very orthodox, most of the 500+ families are seldom seen. I think it is the pastor’s responsiblility as a shepherd to go out and get back his sheep. We can help, but not always lead.
The same goes for the Bishops… most of them of VII era are coming up for retirement. Pray that the advice JPII follows in appointing their successors gives us stronger and holier Bishops than we deserve.
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bear06
Guest
Hi all-
I definely don’t categorize all Traditionalists in the same way. I have friends that simply are attached and love the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, who are fully submissive to the Pope and never bash the Pauline Mass. That said, the overwhelming amount of Tradtionalists I know I categorize as rad-Trads. Please see the quote below as to the kinds of people I deal with regularly. This person does not consider himself to be SSPX and also considers himself in union with the Church. The name has been left out but you may have received this one yourself!
I’m just guessing that Franciscum is venting from running, more often than not, into people like this. You may not fall into his category but, unfortunately for me, at least, this is the kind of “Traditionalists” we have in my neck of the woods. You may or may not think that they hurt the spreading of the Tridentine Mass but I can assure you that they do.
I definely don’t categorize all Traditionalists in the same way. I have friends that simply are attached and love the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, who are fully submissive to the Pope and never bash the Pauline Mass. That said, the overwhelming amount of Tradtionalists I know I categorize as rad-Trads. Please see the quote below as to the kinds of people I deal with regularly. This person does not consider himself to be SSPX and also considers himself in union with the Church. The name has been left out but you may have received this one yourself!
Maybe you think this guy is right on and maybe you think this is appalling. When I first received stuff from him, he sounded like some on the boards. It’s amazing to me how far this guy has gone.
I’m just guessing that Franciscum is venting from running, more often than not, into people like this. You may not fall into his category but, unfortunately for me, at least, this is the kind of “Traditionalists” we have in my neck of the woods. You may or may not think that they hurt the spreading of the Tridentine Mass but I can assure you that they do.
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Franciscum
Guest
I also detest the fact that some miguided people describe themselves as “Traditonalists” (with a capital T) rather than “Catholics.” It’s almost as though they have created another Protestant sect like the “Old Catholic Church” or the “Liberal Catholic Church.”
Knock the other Catholics as much as you like, but I don’t believe I have ever seen them refer to themselves as “Progressives.” Perhaps “progressive Catholics” once in a very great while, but usually “Catholics.”
I can see it now. The “Traditional Catholic Church” – or did the SSPX already copywrite that moniker?
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kwitz
Guest
I have to disagree with you here. If I woke up tomorrow and was told that only the TLM existed from hence forth by an official authority of the Church, I’d go learn latin. If I woke up tomorrow and was told I had to do hand springs to receive Communion, I’d sign up for gymnastic lessons. My point, is that even though I have preferences, I would submit to the Authority of the Church whether that matched my preferences (or athletic skills!!).
Kris
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Franciscum
Guest
That’s an awesome (and extremely Catholic) response…
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pnewton
Guest
Franciscum-
I understand the frustration in this thread. There definitely was a strong wave of new members trying to convert good Catholics to an extremist view of the Mass. I have just seen so many solid Catholics here at CA forrums that prefer, even avid about the TLM. I understand the frustration they feel at not seeing it offered as much as they would like.
However, a lack of a prefered Mass is no excuse to seperate from the Church or to attack other Catholics and the Mass they legitimately attend. I am sure that 90% of those who prefer the more traditional church woould agree.
May God bless his church in its diversity and its unity.
I understand the frustration in this thread. There definitely was a strong wave of new members trying to convert good Catholics to an extremist view of the Mass. I have just seen so many solid Catholics here at CA forrums that prefer, even avid about the TLM. I understand the frustration they feel at not seeing it offered as much as they would like.
However, a lack of a prefered Mass is no excuse to seperate from the Church or to attack other Catholics and the Mass they legitimately attend. I am sure that 90% of those who prefer the more traditional church woould agree.
May God bless his church in its diversity and its unity.
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MrS
Guest
Amen… but…Go Bluehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
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bear06
Guest
I’d agree with most of the post. The only part I’d quibble about is your 90%. In my area, at least, it’s probably more like 70% and dipping. I don’t have a problem with the Tridentine. In fact, I’ve suggested being a little more proactive by sharing how those with indults went about getting them. I’ve yet to been taken up on this challenge which I think is sad. If people want the spread of the Tridentine, they’re going to have to do far more than bash this, that and the other. I don’t see how anyone can think this is productive. It just drives people farther into their liberal or conservative corners.
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IrenkaJMJ
Guest
Franciscum said:
OUCH!!!
What do you mean “there you go again”? Have I used “liberal” incorrectly before?:crying: And besides, you must know what I mean. ( Two sides of the same coin? Remember?) Is “progressive” a better word? I think you have used that one!
Thanks in part to you and others on this forum, I couldn’t agree more.
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