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St.James
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My view of traditionalist Catholics is that the church changed while they stayed the same.
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MrS
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St. James:
lotta truth in that for many of the “trads”… but they still get their share of critics
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ThornGenX
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I have only experienced the Novus Ordo form of the mass, though I would be willing to see what the Traditional Latin Mass would be like. I do not know Latin, but it could not be much worse than when I went to a Spanish only mass to fulfill my Easter Holy Day of Obligation (and I know very little Spanish from my high school classes).
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davy39
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If there are any “traditionalists” in our diocese, it is my understanding that we will be returning to a Mass that will sort of be like ewtn with some latin and some english. I am a cradle Catholic from the pre-vat.2 days, so I am still used to some latin, but my wife, who is a convert, says she doesn’t like the idea. We have a new bishop here, and he is very conservative. So we’ll se what happens. I wish that if we are going to have Mass in our native languages, then do so, and stick with it. Or in latin, so be it , and stick with it. This bouncing back and forth just creates confusion.
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Kielbasi
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I doubt that the church will be returning to any Latin any time soon.
Many of the priests just don’t know the language, so they aren’t able to say masses or any significant part of it in Latin. I was talking with an ex-seminarian friend of mine, who came within a year of ordination, and I asked him a question (non-religious) about a Latin phrase, he didn’t have a clue.
As far as hearing mass in our native languages, that’s probably not in the near future either. Its been quite a few years since I’ve heard mass in my native language (Polish), the priests who knew how to say mass in the languages of the old country are now mostly deceased or in the homes for retired priests now. I think for the most part, American Catholics have the English mass whether they like it or not.
Many of the priests just don’t know the language, so they aren’t able to say masses or any significant part of it in Latin. I was talking with an ex-seminarian friend of mine, who came within a year of ordination, and I asked him a question (non-religious) about a Latin phrase, he didn’t have a clue.
As far as hearing mass in our native languages, that’s probably not in the near future either. Its been quite a few years since I’ve heard mass in my native language (Polish), the priests who knew how to say mass in the languages of the old country are now mostly deceased or in the homes for retired priests now. I think for the most part, American Catholics have the English mass whether they like it or not.
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rwoehmke
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The only thing true about this statement is the fact that the parts of the Mass that are quotes from Scripture including the words of consecration are the only parts that could be said to go back 1900 years. The basic parts or sections go back about that far, but the TLM is about 500 years old and had been under continous change up to Vatican II. Indeed the celebration of the Eucharist can be said to go back 2000 years, but hardly any particular form of the Mass. That being said the Latin music written for the Mass by some of the great composers is very beautiful and moving and worthy not only for the celebration of the Eucharist but also the concert hall.
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Franciscum
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The Catholic Church never left the Latin language. The use of Latin has always been encouraged for the celebration of the Novus Ordo Mass.
As to priests who don’t speak Latin, that too is a non-issue. Begin by singing/chanting the Gloria, Kyrie (Greek), Creed, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin which is easy to learn and you’ve already made great strides.
Finally, the Mass in the vernacular other than English (Spanish for instance) is thriving through much of the USA.
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katherine2
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Same was mostly true before the Council. I remember some wise guys from Fordham in the 1950’s would go the confession speaking Latin to make a point to certain conservative priests.
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terrcatholic
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You are correct it is not a democracy, but it seems the church is so tolerant nowadays about all things, ie Canon Law in 1959 (I think it was in 1959, could be 1960 or 61, during John XXIII) forbade homosexual seminarians and or Priests, now the Vatican is saying “as long as they are celibate that is Ok”…(pedopilia anyone???. Our Holy father attends services in Synagogues, has basically turned the shrine at Fatima into an Ecumenical Sanctuary, we are told that after 1962 years or so that now the Moslems, Catholics, etc all religions worship the same God and ALL can be saved, and the ecumenical reaching out and weakening of our faith to appease these others leads many good Catholics to confusion. As a parent, if you leave an opening for a child and you are not clear on what you expect from him or her, you have a problem, and that is what has happened in post V2. I am not bashing our Holy Father in any way as I Love him, and to do that publically would be wrong (but I would tell you what many like myself truly feel about this over a cup of coffee or something) but when it comes to Catholics who hold to the past teachings of the chuch…boy that is truly another story, they are like leppers or something and we are told in my church to stay away from them, they are uncharitable, they are schismatic, on and on. As a somewhat read, well versed Catholic who has studied some thology and has a past in our faith without divulging much here, A BIG Red flag goes up in my and many’s head. I admit, and I know my wife and mother, aunts , etc that if tomorrow the Pope said it was OK for us to attend the TLM at these other churches that offer it, because they wont institute not one indult here where we have over 130 churches in our Parish, we would go, but we are obedient and I dont want to be a sellout, if that makes any crazy sense to all here.
Franciscum:
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Jakub
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Placing our differences aside, I wish all brethern peace, on this Feast Day of the Circumcision of the Lord.
Pax Christi,
james
Pax Christi,
james
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Teresita
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This is actually just as true/untrue as the original claim apparently being refuted here. The ‘Tridentine Mass’ was a codification of a Mass which in most of its basics (such as the Canon) goes back to the sixth century; there were many different ‘uses’ which grew up during succeeding centuries, but they varied far less than one might think. You don’t have to believe me: check out the Net, comparing (for instance) Sarum Use - the normal rite used in England - with the Roman Missal, or with the Dominican rite. You have to look fairly closely to pick out the differences.
The modern Roman Rite is different not only in its use of the vernacular, but in many of the prayers (both what’s in and what’s out). It reminds me a little of the ‘Notes’ produced for students reading Shakespeare, where the language is not only modernised but dumbed down, so that “No, this my hand will rather/ The multitudinous seas incarnadine,/ Making the green one red” becomes “The blood on my hand will turn all the green seas red”. The meaning’s there, but the depth and beauty isn’t. So I have no problem with the validity of the modern rite, but I do with the ancient beauty which has been lost - especially in the ICEL translation, which is not only inaccurate at times, but plods. I realise that this is another arca vermium*, however.
Sue
*can (well, box, but what the tartarus…) of worms
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aspawloski4th
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time for my 2 cents franc. spx society is not scismatic, as declared by cardinal ratzinger in his announcio to the united states. Im a bit tired of being labeled extremist because I dont go with every new fad that comes down hill at me. lets compare! in spx society churches you have church memebers who go to Mass every sunday, teach their children well, are involved in religious issues, pray the rosary at home. just something Ive observed from meeting them. in your typical catholic parish ie mine is pretty typical. lots of people who are there for just Mass, but dont act catholic outside of Mass( ie go to strip clubs, vote for john kerry, etc etc), many easter/christmas only catholics, many with cell phones in church( big no no), chewing gum in church, priest not wearing his roman collar, liturgical abuses gallore(ie not genuflecting during consecration), many memeber crowding the saturday Mass so they dont have to get up early on sunday.spx society memebers sound like a more Godly people too me! arguing the examples I put for the typical catholic parrish wont fly, its stuff that Ive seen for many years, and only has been getting worse! If I wasnt married to a wife who wanted to go to our parrish we belong to, Id be very seriously ,with an open mindllokin in tojoining the sspx parrish in my area. but Id investigate before joining ofcourse.
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terrcatholic
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I agree with you totally, I saw more bumper stickers in my church parking lot for John Kerry, a Catholic sellout then I did for GWB, and I mean like 3 to 1. I could not believe it. And when we asked our Priest after Mass if they were going to endorse someone, he said the Church is not into politics. Not into Politics? The man is for Abortion and stating in his debates that he is a catholic. What kind of message is that? I have a hard time defending the Church’s actions, or shall I say inactions to Jewish friends who are more conservative than many of the so called Catholics that I know (those that are Catholic that Dont go to church which is like most of them) and then on top of that, and this is worse in my opinion, the Catholics who do go to church and support a man like John Kerry.
aspawloski4th:
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pnewton
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Yes they are.
For those new to the debate, here is the “Ask an Apologist” answer.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=38
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bear06
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Can you site your source for this? I keep asking for this but it seems that nobody can produce it. ~Thanks.
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aspawloski4th
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I had had the anouncio to the united states a while ago, but I misplaced it. I was originally told of it by fr gruner’s organization. contrary to what some think, they have never lied to me. people can make mistakes! so if catholic answers says one thing and cardinal ratzinger contradicts it, I have to go with cardinal ratzinger with all due respect to both. one thing that worries me a bit here in america, you see it just a little here, but its a big blight in the american catholic church at large. when a liberal organization like “catholics for a free choice” spews their nonsense they are critisized but nothing further. but should someone from sspx society say one little thing they are called heritics, schizmatic on and on.thats a very blatent double standard. in an effort to balance things Ill just stick to fighting liberalism. I dont have the conservative phobia that many seem to have in the american catholic church. when all the liberal groups are shut up ie catholics for a free choice, call to action, national reporter,the bishop uetener types, etc. I might start to focus on the other side.Us american catholics better take along evaluating look at our selves, and start correcting things or there may be a tidal wave waiting for us. if something of that proportion hits Ive got my brown scapular on.
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pnewton
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If you click on the link above you will find that all Jan Wakelin did was quote the good cardinal’s boss, Pope John Paul II.
I totally understand how you feel about some of these nutty pseudo- Catholics groups. Still the soultion is to be faithful to our Pope and not join a nutty pseudo-Catholic group of a different flavor.
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aspawloski4th
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ok I read what the pope said about sspx. but why not the same or more harsh treatment for " call to action, or catholics for free choice" then? what those 2 groups are doing is light years more grave than sspx. I propose to all reading that being a member of either of those 2 groups is no better than being a member of the church of Satan! our double standards have got to end, and end now. where was the excommunication for john kerry? he is worse than sspx. It seem we leave the liberal schizmatics alone, while we are burning the conservative side at the stake. are we afraid of a little traditionalism?whats next made up spontainious prayer during Mass? I tell you the more I go to Mass these days, sometimes even when the priest is considered conservative, the less catholic I feel, little by little. if you aask why just look at my first post on this thread. now I cant remember the last time I heard the word sin in a homily( not sermon like the protestants say).I tell you if the time machine is ever invented Im gone from this time. to the 1950s or anything erlier. these modern times are dangerous to a souls health.
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Jakub
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I betcha you won’t find crystal/glass decanters for the holy Wine and altar girls in a Traditional Church/Mass, nor people wearing heavy metal t-shirts & exposed tummies.
james
james
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TNT
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Actually, there is no Vatican sourced document that points to “not in schism”.
- The problem surrounds the assumption that Schism is being equated only to “Denial of the Primacy of the Pope”. (like the 1st major schism of the Eastern Churches).
- However, the Church also includes those who “refuse to SUBMIT to the Pope”. This would include the “Old Catholics” who refuse to accept the dogma of infallibility at VAT I. They held to the primacy of the pope, but not to his universal teaching. Go figure? I do not profess to know what they hold to today. Frankly, I think they have since flushed themselves into the theological toilet.
This is closer to SSPX.
But SSPX denies the universal teaching that VAT II was a ligitimate Council. They want it revoked or revised where they believe it is in error on matters held by the Ordinary Magisterium prior to VAT II.
However, they still hold to all the DE FIDE of the historical Church. Which is good. They have some of the best Catechism classes i’ve ever attended.
SSPX is not in schism by #1 BUT they are in a schismatic state by #2.
I dearly love many of the people at the SSPX Mass, and my heart bleeds for them as they feel sincerely that they are not fed the Faith of their Fathers in the VAT II Church.
I pray that this will be resolved to the delight of Our Lord, soon.
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