My wife will never submit to me...should that matter?

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holy face said:

“Men have become lazy, unproductive and unmotivated because their leadership has been taken away, everything that before motivated them to succeed and be productive has been removed.”

Actually, no.

When people are actually leaders, you can’t take that away from them. I have a friend who has a lot of leadership ability. She is very energetic and imaginative and she is able to motivate others to follow her because of her example.

The OP has never been a leader in his family. It’s not something for him to regain, it’s something he’s never had before.

“The answer is to both become more responsible and retake the leadership where they can feel they are providing for and taking care of their families instead of taking marching orders from their snippy domineering wives.”

I don’t think anybody in this thread has been suggesting “taking marching orders from their snippy domineering wives.”

As I posted earlier, the best way to acquire authority is by taking on more responsibility. Responsibility = authority.

I think you actually agree with that, but at the same time you want to talk about “snippy domineering wives.”
 
Here’s more on the subject of responsibility and authority.

Right this minute, my husband is repairing a ceiling fan. He has taken responsibility and he has authority over that project, as well as my respect.

Likewise, I have demonstrated that I am responsible with money. Our monthly budgets balance, and every month we move closer to meeting financial goals. Because I am responsible, I have authority over our grocery budget and clothing budget (and other subcategories) and my husband does not question my purchases or fuss over receipts, because he knows that I am doing what I should be doing.

Again, being responsible, hardworking and trustworthy is the road to authority.
 
There are five of us at home and I can’t even imagine wanting total authority over everything and everyone in my home. (And quite a number of CA families are rather larger than ours.)

There’s so much going on–so many kids to feed and dress and get to and from school and activities and so much homework and so much household and car maintenance and so many emails to answer. And diapers and baths and birthdays and holidays and so forth. I don’t even want to be in charge of all of it, frankly.

There’s more than enough authority to go around, at least at my house.
 
Also, review Proverbs 31. That is an example of a woman who has a very high degree of authority and autonomy, and she is regarded as the Old Testament ideal of womanhood.
 
Xantippe said:
There are five of us at home and I can’t even imagine wanting total authority over everything and everyone in my home. (And quite a number of CA families are rather larger than ours.)

There’s so much going on–so many kids to feed and dress and get to and from school and activities and so much homework and so much household and car maintenance and so many emails to answer. And diapers and baths and birthdays and holidays and so forth. I don’t even want to be in charge of all of it, frankly.

There’s more than enough authority to go around, at least at my house.
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Nobody said the husband’s authority means controlling every aspect of the household, the wife is the first officer and much is delegated to her to take control over. She certainly advises her husband and tells him when she thinks he may be wrong. I am not advocating a dictatorship and neither does the MMSL book.

What I meant by snippy and controlling women is that what happens when a husband is an irresponsible man child. The wife has to take control and is usually not very happy about it, thus she becomes difficult and temperamental. It is usually the man’s fault that things got to this condition. He is passive, less masculine, and less motivated, and his wife will resent him and even become unattracted to him.

This is where evolutionary psychology comes in, not to get us to act like animals but to help explain why we react to things in a certain way. Throughout human history and development woman have generally been dependent on male protection and leadership to simply stay alive, a strong male presence (not abusive) gives them comfort and stability that they may not even recognize because it is at an instinctual level. When a male does not display this behavior he becomes a beta male in their eyes, someone who may be able to help out some but is not that strong masculine presence that she needs. She does not feel as safe from danger and becomes uneasy, perhaps even looking to a new mate to provide this for her.
 
Xantippe said:
Also, review Proverbs 31. That is an example of a woman who has a very high degree of authority and autonomy, and she is regarded as the Old Testament ideal of womanhood.
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That is a great proverb, nothing that I have been suggesting conflicts with that. I am not advocating women should just do nothing and be passive and sit in a corner. Just that men need to take a leadership role that is based on them being both responsible as well as dominant, not in an aggressive or abusing way, just decisive when he needs to be.

When my child is acting up my wife appreciates that I can step in and with authority and clear dominance get him to behave. My wife tends to have a meltdown if she has to deal with it all on her own. Not that all woman respond like that but it is just one example where the male leadership is often needed. My child is extremely difficult and sometimes violent. My wife would resent me, become extremely emotional, and fight with me if I refused to exercise this leadership.
 
buzzoff1031 said:
OK, so just a tad of background. When my wife and I married neither of us were Christian. I came back to a childhood (protestant) faith later on. I also later converted to Catholicism. Through the years I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff (changing jobs often, dropping out of college when I could easily have finished, porn, et al). Also, my wife is a pretty smart cookie.

OK, so forward to now. My wife is still not a Christian. She is embittered because of the stupid stuff I’ve done and how I haven’t loved her as I should (at times I’ve been a downright jerk). She thinks I’m stupid (and being honest, rightfully so). All this being said, I don’t think she’ll ever submit to me as her husband. She will always try to “rule the roost”. I can fight with her and get her to back down on some things, but therein lies my query. Should it matter?

Here is what I mean. Obviously I can’t change her mind. Also, if I do try to “make the decisions”, she gets upset. Jesus said that one desiring to be the leader, should become the servant. Should I take that to mean that I should let her make most of the decisions (unless they are against my faith) thereby demonstrating the way? Or put another way, should I “lead by example?”
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If your wife is not a Christian ,and you are, the greater responsibility lies on you. You can’t convert her, only Christ can. But you can predispose her by your Christian example. The greatest example you can give is to practice Christian love. Put your beliefs into practice Seek to understand her thoughts and feelings, be sensitive to her needs, and expectations. If you trust God, He will cause things to happen that will increase a mutual love for each other. Humility in behavior, telling her you are really sorry for hurting her. You may even anticipate her needs. It is hoped that she still has love for you, and not built up a wall of resentment. Some times it is just loving patience that is needed, after all, she had to endure a lot of grief, and it takes time to heal. Also pray a lot, put God first and obey His will and love your wife as you love yourself. It is no easy task sometimes, but always rewarding. Love attracts, hopefully to your wife’s conversion. She must see the Christ in you, and so does your Father. Your marriage must be three for real success, you, your wife, and God. After all your marriage is your way to God, it is your calling, and it is intended to sanctify both of you. I had to eat a lot of “crow” as I was a pretty proud person, but God took care of that beautifully.
 
holy face said:

“What I meant by snippy and controlling women is that what happens when a husband is an irresponsible man child. The wife has to take control and is usually not very happy about it, thus she becomes difficult and temperamental. It is usually the man’s fault that things got to this condition. He is passive, less masculine, and less motivated, and his wife will resent him and even become unattracted to him.”

Then you should have said that.

The way you initially put, it sounded like women get snippy and controlling just out of the blue. Without mentioning the other half of it (the male contribution to the dynamic) it sounds very misogynistic.

holy face:

“When my child is acting up my wife appreciates that I can step in and with authority and clear dominance get him to behave. My wife tends to have a meltdown if she has to deal with it all on her own. Not that all woman respond like that but it is just one example where the male leadership is often needed, my child is extremely difficult and sometime violent. My wife would resent me, become extremely emotional, and fight with me if I refused to exercise this leadership.”

That sounds very helpful.

I have a mildly autistic oldest child myself, and I’ve often asked my husband “back me up!” A change of parent is often helpful.

Of course, if my husband has to be with the kids and is overwhelmed, he occasionally has a meltdown of his own. Nobody can do this on their own indefinitely.
 
Yes I am guilty of trying to respond too quickly to a flurry of posts without thinking everything I am writing through completely. I need to slow down and explain myself better. Usually when I step away for a while to do something else my thoughts are better organized and more complete when I come back.
 
say: fine, then, you be the man

and give her all your responsibilities and say: here, take it
 
buzzoff1031 said:
OK, so just a tad of background. When my wife and I married neither of us were Christian. I came back to a childhood (protestant) faith later on. I also later converted to Catholicism. Through the years I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff (changing jobs often, dropping out of college when I could easily have finished, porn, et al). Also, my wife is a pretty smart cookie.

OK, so forward to now. My wife is still not a Christian. She is embittered because of the stupid stuff I’ve done and how I haven’t loved her as I should (at times I’ve been a downright jerk). She thinks I’m stupid (and being honest, rightfully so). All this being said, I don’t think she’ll ever submit to me as her husband. She will always try to “rule the roost”. I can fight with her and get her to back down on some things, but therein lies my query. Should it matter?

Here is what I mean. Obviously I can’t change her mind. Also, if I do try to “make the decisions”, she gets upset. Jesus said that one desiring to be the leader, should become the servant. Should I take that to mean that I should let her make most of the decisions (unless they are against my faith) thereby demonstrating the way? Or put another way, should I “lead by example?”
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How about stop trying to get her to submit. What is this the taliban? She’s your wife not your servant. Stop trying to be the leader and include her in on some of the decision making. Now I don’t know how much she wants to be included and what exactly the situation is. There are certain things she should trust you to do on your own but this is really a conversation you need to have. If its a situation where she just wants you to be completely submissive then thats not going to work either.

You really should just have an honest conversation about it but your point of view shouldn’t be wanting her to submit. It should be how to make it a good working partnership.
 
BigBlueCane said:
How about stop trying to get her to submit. What is this the taliban? She’s your wife not your servant. Stop trying to be the leader and include her in on some of the decision making. Now I don’t know how much she wants to be included and what exactly the situation is. There are certain things she should trust you to do on your own but this is really a conversation you need to have. If its a situation where she just wants you to be completely submissive then thats not going to work either.

You really should just have an honest conversation about it but your point of view shouldn’t be wanting her to submit. It should be how to make it a good working partnership.
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That isn’t Christian teaching, it’s not biblical, it is the opposite
 
I wonder if we’ve gotten a bit off topic with the OP.

In general the OP exceeds what many of us can usefully help with since there just isn’t enough information in it. If the OP were a friend of mine and asked me as much it would be a prelude to a long discussion perhaps over drinks where I could ask a lot of questions and do a lot of listening before opining.

Having said that and qualified my answer so I’ll recognize whatever the OP is going through, this is a question where he is asking for help. Trying not to sink into a debate over MMSL, I’ll share a few words that I hope I can keep inside the space of helpful.

I think I understand where holy face is coming from in recommending MMSL and a word about that before we judge-book-by-salacious-cover.

The OP has asked about submission and stripped of the Biblical context submission is an issue of respect. MMSL, at core, is merely attempting to teach men to be attractive, and this is important to this forum: it is attempting to teach them to be attractive to their wives.

MMSL, and we guess holy face, are trying to say that by learning to master himself, the OP will be taking a responsibility and specifically a kind that wives respect and respect will follow - or: if it does not, it will mean you have moved to a different rung of problems. Many of you are saying this: from responsibility comes authority. Good. Now…our OP has communicated he’s pulling up the rear here. He needs some guidance on that. MMSL actually reads just that way, as an outline/map for men who’ve not had fathers, parents or a church to give them one. There are a lot of these guys who need this kind of help.

More than that there’s an underlying: it is not bad that women should wish to be attractive for their husbands and we don’t immediately condemn all of the endless, endless media that exists just for this purpose. Similarly it is not bad that men should wish to be attractive for their wives and maybe we should be slower to judge efforts towards that end.

Men, attractive to their wives and women, attractive to their husbands, both: respecting each other … sounds pretty pro-family to me.
 
holy_face said:
That isn’t Christian teaching, it’s not biblical, it is the opposite
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Are you implying, Holy Face, that nothing outside of Christian teaching will work??? And how is what BBC said not “Christian?” And according to which of the approximately 41,000 Christian denominations are we going by? Yours, of course. But then you need to get specific. Perhaps you are referring to the examples of marriage by rape,* abduction, slavery, arrangement, or other savory sort of marriage in the Bible? Please be more specific.

*This may be making a comeback. One of the States has sanctions “parental visits” of a rapist to his offspring, and another is considering, I believe, the opportunity for the rapist to marry his victim. Clearly, in our Country, we are making great Biblical advances!
 
RPRPsych said:
Not atheistic evolution which denies original sin and makes us glorified chimps. :rolleyes:

Again, read Humani Generis by Pope Pius XII. It’s a good read. (No rough stuff in it though, Pius wasn’t that sort of guy. Those Popes - such sissy betas, right?) 😛
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Lol.

Nothing more beta than acting like who you’re not to trick a woman who actually gets turned on by some player if you ask me.

I’m currently taking an RCIA class, and in the class about the sacrament of marriage, a book called “The Surrendered Wife” was talked about and briefly summarized. The woman author described how, through trial and error and wholly unaware of the biblical concept of the wife’s submission in the marriage, she came to the conclusion that male leadership is inbuilt in humanity’s nature and for marriage, and that when this is actually played out in a marriage, miraculously (!), the husband becomes more attractive in the wife’s eyes, and a sense of rightness and joy develops in the relationship for the wife.

Of course you’ll probably note how counter-cultural such a message is in a world where people are trying to ban the word “bossy” when it gets applied to women.
 
Sochi said:
*This may be making a comeback. One of the States has sanctions “parental visits” of a rapist to his offspring, and another is considering, I believe, the opportunity for the rapist to marry his victim. Clearly, in our Country, we are making great Biblical advances!
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Good lord have mercy is this true? Which state is that so that I know never to live there.
 
Sochi said:
Are you implying, Holy Face, that nothing outside of Christian teaching will work??? And how is what BBC said not “Christian?” And according to which of the approximately 41,000 Christian denominations are we going by? Yours, of course. But then you need to get specific. Perhaps you are referring to the examples of marriage by rape,* abduction, slavery, arrangement, or other savory sort of marriage in the Bible? Please be more specific.

*This may be making a comeback. One of the States has sanctions “parental visits” of a rapist to his offspring, and another is considering, I believe, the opportunity for the rapist to marry his victim. Clearly, in our Country, we are making great Biblical advances!
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Yes it’s quite unfortunate that biblical fundamentalism and literalism (whether practiced by bible thumpers or by internet atheists) is still regarded as a legitimate way of looking at the Bible. I guess these folks forgot about what they learned in middle and high school English when they were leaning about literary genres and similar topics.
 
Oh would you look at this?
A study called “Egalitarianism, Housework and Sexual Frequency in Marriage,” which appeared in The American Sociological Review last year, surprised many, precisely because it went against the logical assumption that as marriages improve by becoming more equal, the sex in these marriages will improve, too. Instead, it found that when men did certain kinds of chores around the house, couples had less sex. Specifically, if men did all of what the researchers characterized as feminine chores like folding laundry, cooking or vacuuming — the kinds of things many women say they want their husbands to do — then couples had sex 1.5 fewer times per month than those with husbands who did what were considered masculine chores, like taking out the trash or fixing the car. It wasn’t just the frequency that was affected, either — at least for the wives. The more traditional the division of labor, meaning the greater the husband’s share of masculine chores compared with feminine ones, the greater his wife’s reported sexual satisfaction.
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nytimes.com/2014/02/09/magazine/does-a-more-equal-marriage-mean-less-sex.html?_r=0

So it’s a win win it would appear.
 
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