Near Death Experiences

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FurtherSuntime said:
In a way…you continue to have little confidence in the effect of your participation in creation. by following the suggested doomed outcome, You may well be invariably agreeing with the brainwashed suggestion of in-adequacy. and non significance in contribution. Nothing can be done then.

You can do nothing,… you are indeed in-adequate and cannot abort yourself from the origin of all this life long non-sense…fear.
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When a person gets sentenced to hell, they’re there for good. I don’t see how realizing you have no ability to change that is somehow giving in to fear of inadequacy.
 
I’m sure many have experienced grave injustice. Whether its an employer, lover, family member,neighbor…Its all betray based and hurtful. We put our best foot forward & its not only ignored but crushed to the bone. The foot innocently enters in hope repeatedly… only to be repeatedly crushed.

Unfortuanately there are some who could be blind-folded and exact a correct target in the provided list with all above , fitting the bill at one time or another.

Looking at the posts I think something is missing which is worth tossing out on the table. The idea of foregiveness is what…? It is a turn away, from harboring ill-will or a hopeful demise for atonement.

I don’t think forgiveness means that we must be all buddy-buddy with someone. It does not even mean preferred association…in fact reason suggests that the combination should be avoided due to known history…

We all “draw-out” unique and different qualities and lack there of, from everyone we encounter which explains the extremes in association…Many of the father-son issues are really offshoots of a feared Mother-Son interference in priority or attention. The father nails the son…if there was no mother present , how many occurences would be reduced I wonder.

So here we have some explanation together with rooted up-bringing, booze…possible hassles at work , Even appearence jealousys, age jealousys
In short…an association which brought out or draws out the worst in an individual…

My point is that we can decently forgive & intelligently press on knowing that the combination is a disaster… no bowling, fishing trips to be planned.

Heres an example…and I have many, don’t worry. An individual ripped me off badly. Took me for an idiot , and yes I’m gullible. The shock left me sleepless for about 6 months due to loss. … An older fella, it was buis orientated. All that was needed which happened is Three Hail Marys for his soul, hope for the best & give it to God…and GOOD NIGHT. It doesn’t mean that I’m going to go over for a barbecue or whatever…It also does not mean back to normal…

The wisdom in foregiveness has quite a bit of intelligence. Avoid occasions which promote ill-will.We escape becoming part of the cycle…we step aside… If we do not forgive and hold one ounce of indifference to well being for the culprit…the culprit has in fact propogated the reality of ill-will…Good-Will and Ill-Will are forms of communication. We communicate in part what has been communicated to ourselves. ( big brother bully, ect ) All ill-will is fear based in survival.

All we are saying is no…I am not God. I will not judge you. ( as you have judged me worthless.
in pitiful example.)…I will not learn from your pitiful judgemental manner in example of reducing me to that of an un-worthy useless entity for your false sense of ridiculousness of a human being.

No ill will, off to God you go, he created you, I have no steak in your destiny and overlook on my belalf your human weakness, you are forgiven. There is no insecure need to be at an advantage at your demise,I have learned what I am grateful to know.

Freedom equals No Ill-Will… equals no fear . Active Ill Will equals fear…Foregiveness equals moderation …a moderating influence on both self and the culprit…we are only human hope that helps

Ive had a very long day …so no recheck and you guys can over view if you like. Not that sure if Ill be back…very busy
 
dandingo said:
I was actually planning on posting that book. I’ve read most of it but haven’t quite gotten to the end. What I found extremely interesting is that the books speaks of a doctor who has studied near death experiences in extreme depth. In thousands of cases, the majority were very similar in what they experienced. Not only that, but the near death experiences ranged from being clinically dead for anywhere from a few minutes to well over an hour or two. I can see being somewhat skeptical with regards to the ones who died for a few minutes but the ones that were clinically dead for near or even over an hour is strong evidence for the afterlife.

And I am just at a loss for words that atheists love to use the “well, even if we don’t know it now, we will one day” answer for everything that is unexplained. I have read and watched multiple accounts of people literally dying and coming back to life and you can discern, from their writings and explanations, that what they experienced was not their ‘brain firing’ or ‘memories’ or anything like that. They genuinely believe that they experienced the afterlife.

In fact, there are multiple accounts of devout atheists going to hell and returning. You can see, in their face, that what they experienced was real. And these are people that aren’t selling books or DVDs. They’re simply warning that hell is a real place. Given, I don’t know for a fact that these are true but from the research I have done I have absolutely no reason to believe that it isn’t. Just because you haven’t experienced it does not mean that it isn’t true and real.
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I was clinically nearly dead. I do believe in an afterlife because I have experienced many of the same descriptions of others who have experienced NDE’s. Until it happens to you, you will continue to deny God and the existence of the afterlife. What exactly is the purpose of the post? To deny what you have not experienced personally? It isn’t based in logic if you have not experienced it, you have no basis for your comments against it. Oh, nice post dandingo,.Amen to that!
 
I am a hospice nurse and have presided over, possibly, hundreds of deaths. It is astounding to me how characteristic a death is to certain personalities. The manner of death seems to correspond more closely to a person’s spiritual and psychological orientation than even to one’s disease. That is, the same disease can result in several different types of experiences during the active dying phase.

Interesting to note is that men, particularly strong, egotistical men, and particularly stubborn or recalcitrant men, have very difficult, lingering deaths that require a lot of intervention. Young people, especially if they have lived unspiritual or sinful lives tend to linger and have a hard time. Spiritual little old ladies who have accepted their fate tend to slip away quietly, regardless of their illness.

The husband of one of my patients described his experience when his heart stopped in the ambulance. He came to a lovely place with flowers and heard children laughing. He said he would never be afraid to die after that. Well, he was an exceptionally sweet and nice man, hard-working, humble, that type. So, go figure.
 
Ceil-1,

Thank you so much for your post. It has given me more reasurance about death. The only fear that I have of dying is that my ICD will keep shocking me back (I have a sudden death syndrome). I plan to ask to have it turned off at an appropriate point!

God bless you

Frances
 
Ceil-1 said:
I am a hospice nurse and have presided over, possibly, hundreds of deaths. It is astounding to me how characteristic a death is to certain personalities. The manner of death seems to correspond more closely to a person’s spiritual and psychological orientation than even to one’s disease. That is, the same disease can result in several different types of experiences during the active dying phase.

Interesting to note is that men, particularly strong, egotistical men, and particularly stubborn or recalcitrant men, have very difficult, lingering deaths that require a lot of intervention. Young people, especially if they have lived unspiritual or sinful lives tend to linger and have a hard time. Spiritual little old ladies who have accepted their fate tend to slip away quietly, regardless of their illness.

The husband of one of my patients described his experience when his heart stopped in the ambulance. He came to a lovely place with flowers and heard children laughing. He said he would never be afraid to die after that. Well, he was an exceptionally sweet and nice man, hard-working, humble, that type. So, go figure.
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Go figure… Is that it…?

Respectfully I think your being a tad bit hasty with your expected and comfortable conclusions.

I gave this some thought over the past day or so and reflected on discussions Ive had on this very same topic with two people equiped great experience here. One male, one female, both professionals in the field.

Your generalizations pointing out egotistical, spiritual and so on are un-acceptable. When people grow old , close to the end , many drugs ect…personalities, memory, attitude, recall, all comprise what many times is an all together different person than throughout life…what the heck are you trying to promote here anyway…there are underlining fear based suggestions concealed in this questionable overview. Very pointed I would say. Many as I understand have trouble relaxing and letting go. People are only people.

How do you know that the difficulty’s are truly representing a need to spend more time with loved ones. People NEVER reveal their absolute inner most thoughts, even to themselves consciously sometimes.

Communication is a matter of tossing things out on the table

To evaluate and judge like this with broad sweeping psychological generalizations becomes suspect of what I call…what people want to see and believe in order to support personal conviction.

Can you really feel adequately further fortified in personal conviction with convictions which have absolutely no fundamental intelligent back up…?.IOW wheres the portfolio of known life time psychological history which you are securing? How do you know one of the individuals you are evaluating in a profound intimate way I might , did not save many people due to courageous acts throughout their life? in that same stubborness you are in-directly damning?

Stubbornness is important if applied with good moderation and wisdom…we need the quality .
Every one is different. What are you thinking. You know theres an argument to everything…this is the philosophy area. Everything is relative… There is no argument however for assuming you know the entire life and struggle of another and can miraculously allocate reason for personality in a fear based suggestive…IOW…oh I better self reflect now…am I stubborn, am I spiritual enough? better be careful… this seals the deal…

You would learn an interesting thing watching one of the many documentarys on one of those gang related crime people guys who goes to church or whatever …giving to the poor ect…

Oh my !.. the sweetest little ole man ,Why just like a child in his senior years.Must of certainly had a gracious giving life…now I kinow for certain how everything works.

come on:
 
Alright…I will add another comment

I will plead guilty with an explanation for being forward & overly opinionated in above.

Caring for the sick and elderly is a talent. Not everyone has the patience. With ease , good regard forwarded…for the special perseverance with members of society who have contributed to what enables ourselves to survive as we do. …

I know from the acquaintance’s ( friendship) in this line of work that its an 8 hour… or shift long call for every possible need which comes to surface… Ive heard the stories, personalities, co-worker & establishment issues ect ect.

All I was trying to express was theres no point in trying to pin down a grading system of value relative to spiritual trueness with behavior with the elderly.

Then why was my post so opinionated ?

Because…opinion is only opinion, it’s not reality… Thats the relay…

With due admiration as explained above…Good luck:thumbsup:
 
FurtherSuntime said:
Go figure… Is that it…?

Respectfully I think your being a tad bit hasty with your expected and comfortable conclusions.

I gave this some thought over the past day or so and reflected on discussions Ive had on this very same topic with two people equiped great experience here. One male, one female, both professionals in the field.

Your generalizations pointing out egotistical, spiritual and so on are un-acceptable. When people grow old , close to the end , many drugs ect…personalities, memory, attitude, recall, all comprise what many times is an all together different person than throughout life…what the heck are you trying to promote here anyway…there are underlining fear based suggestions concealed in this questionable overview. Very pointed I would say. Many as I understand have trouble relaxing and letting go. People are only people.

How do you know that the difficulty’s are truly representing a need to spend more time with loved ones. People NEVER reveal their absolute inner most thoughts, even to themselves consciously sometimes.

Communication is a matter of tossing things out on the table

To evaluate and judge like this with broad sweeping psychological generalizations becomes suspect of what I call…what people want to see and believe in order to support personal conviction.

Can you really feel adequately further fortified in personal conviction with convictions which have absolutely no fundamental intelligent back up…?.IOW wheres the portfolio of known life time psychological history which you are securing? How do you know one of the individuals you are evaluating in a profound intimate way I might , did not save many people due to courageous acts throughout their life? in that same stubborness you are in-directly damning?

Stubbornness is important if applied with good moderation and wisdom…we need the quality .
Every one is different. What are you thinking. You know theres an argument to everything…this is the philosophy area. Everything is relative… There is no argument however for assuming you know the entire life and struggle of another and can miraculously allocate reason for personality in a fear based suggestive…IOW…oh I better self reflect now…am I stubborn, am I spiritual enough? better be careful… this seals the deal…

You would learn an interesting thing watching one of the many documentarys on one of those gang related crime people guys who goes to church or whatever …giving to the poor ect…

Oh my !.. the sweetest little ole man ,Why just like a child in his senior years.Must of certainly had a gracious giving life…now I kinow for certain how everything works.

come on:
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Cell-1 was reporting on her observations as a palliative care nurse who has seen **hundreds of deaths. **How many have you seen?

She observed certain things about those deaths. But because you didn’t like her observations, you immediately jumped into the attack.

I’ve told you about my father appearing in my room the night he died, and his hideous scream at the end. You didn’t like that either, and again went on the attack.

It might be a good idea if you gave the rest of us some credit for intelligence, even if you don’t like our personal observations or conclusions.

On the business of little old ladies, I remember a story my pastor told me about a little old lady who he was visiting in hospital when he was still a young pastor. She was wasted from disease, possibly cancer, and obviously dying.

Suddenly she sat bolt upright, reached out towards the ceiling / wall junction, said, “I’m coming Jesus!”, her face lit up, and then she fell back, dead. Her appearance was like that of a young girl, after all that illness.

It was, as he said, “a bit of an eye opener for a young pastor”.
 
exoflare said:
I never understood that either. People who are supposedly convinced that life before death is all that there is, and after that you cease to exist… should be making their brief time here count, right? Live every moment for themselves, not wasting any of that precious time entertaining the delusions of others. Yet here they are every day feeling the need to get so defensive for their beliefs, arguing with a bunch of “ignorant sheepherders.” :confused:
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Exo:

That is correct. The reality is that they have no reason to do things that are future-directed. For example, why save money? You could be dead and obliterated this very afternoon. Why reproduce? Whatever comes from any such union will no doubt be dead and obliterated in a mere 70 (or less) years. Why own anything except the bare necessities? That’s a non-frivolous expenditure that takes away from that “make everything count” scenario. Why fall in love and marry? Odds are significant that one or the other will die and be obliterated in no time. And, one could go on and on, ad infinitum. The truth is, they act differently from what they profess.

God bless,
jd
 
Fran65 said:
Ceil-1,

Thank you so much for your post. It has given me more reasurance about death. The only fear that I have of dying is that my ICD will keep shocking me back (I have a sudden death syndrome). I plan to ask to have it turned off at an appropriate point!

God bless you

Frances
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Fran:

But not yet! :eek:

God bless,
jd
 
Fran, I hope that’s a long time from now.

Bob, thanks for defending me. I was relaying my experiences. I wasn’t drawing any conclusions.

There is nothing comfortable about dying, but, given a choice, I would want to be home, surrounded by my doting family, slipping away quietly, waking up a day or so prior to say good bye, and going off to sleep. I do believe that a death like that is a reward for a good life. I have noticed that the most loving of MOTHERS who have attentive children seem to have it the best. Dads, too, but the moms get all the pampering which is how it ought to be.

Another observation is that many people “see” deceased members of their family. It seems to me that if it was just a hallucination of a “dying brain” that it would be distorted, and vary in its content. Our athiest friend seemed to make generalities without considering the details, based on her preconceived notion that it can’t possibly be anyone else.

I am convinced that there is a “visitation” at the moment of our deaths. Sometimes, it begins weeks, even months before. This is usually reported as a matter-of-fact. Some people have dreams…(to be continued)
 
…for instance, one sweet lady, a week prior to her death on the oncology unit I worked, dreamed about her mother and three deceased sisters. They were all dressed in white, and were sitting on a couch. Her mother told her to go into the bedroom and wait until she came for her. The patient told me she did not want to die, but, was no longer feeling anxiety about it. God rest her soul.

One observation I should note, and I am not sure where this came from… when people are visited, occasionally they are in checkered garments. Most often they are in white.
An acquaintance of mine observed the death of her husband on the lake. It was a fishng accident. He fell in somehow, and she saw him struggle, and then drown. Now, this man was a swimmer…

In any case, she worried about his soul because he was somewhat lapsed as a Catholic. Apparently, her daughter was visited by him in a dream. He was surrounded by mist, and wearing a checkered shirt. He told her to tell her mother not to worry, that he was in Paraguay, and that he had had a heart attack and that is why he died.

The daughter had left the Faith and was Protestant, so my friend believes he probably said Purgatory, but that she would not process that word. It is interesting that he was
wearing the checkered shirt.
 
Last one, I promise. I do have a theory, based on my experiences, that is backed up by informal spiritual speculation (Catholic, of course).
  1. The manner of our deaths atone for sins, or is mercifully carried out in an easier way for
    some.
  2. We are visited, prior, either in dreams or by some entity or entities. Whether they are
    truly present or just visions, it’s hard to say.
  3. For some people, this visitation is by foes, not friends. They are frightened. If they
    appear so, I whisper in their ear to call the name of Jesus and ask for mercy. Just
    in case.
  4. I beleive that those who linger are doing some sort of soul work on another level,
    based on their conversations during periods of relative lucidity. I believe we are
    tempted during our final visitation, and, if we have lived a sinful life, the devil tries
    to make us despair. We have to remember to cling to the Lord. We can call on Him
    for forgiveness and salvation with our souls. I believe that it is our duty, when we are
    ministering to them, to pray on their behalf. The body and soul are intermingled, and
    they are probably unable to physically do this, so we should do it on their behalf. Hey,
    what can it hurt?
One will never convince me that there isn’t something on the other side. I think they are in for a big surprise.
 
Ceil-1 said:
Fran, I hope that’s a long time from now.

…

Another observation is that many people “see” deceased members of their family. It seems to me that if it was just a hallucination of a “dying brain” that it would be distorted, and vary in its content. Our athiest friend seemed to make generalities without considering the details, based on her preconceived notion that it can’t possibly be anyone else.

I am convinced that there is a “visitation” at the moment of our deaths. Sometimes, it begins weeks, even months before. This is usually reported as a matter-of-fact. Some people have dreams…(to be continued)
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I’ve already related the business of my father visiting me when he died. He turned up in my room. But I won’t go into that.

However the person who told me in the more normal fashion some 4 days later was my mother’s brother. And I still remember standing then when the penny dropped, counting back four days, and thinking, “Then what the hell was that the other night?” But I won’t go into that either.

As it was the uncle also died later that same year from liver cancer, which he probably had but undiagnosed when he came to tell me about my own father. I went to visit him in hospital about a week before he died (if I remember rightly). While I was there, at one point he weakly pointed over the far wall, and said, “Robert, Grandma’s over there!” He was under palliative care, but quite conscious, if hazy.

At the time I was an atheist, and I thought he was hallucinating. He seemed to sense I didn’t believe him, and he said, “She is, you know”. I left soon after.

It was a bit spooky, but with hindsight, I think she may well have been there.
 
Bob_Crowley said:
Cell-1 was reporting on her observations as a palliative care nurse who has seen **hundreds of deaths. **How many have you seen?

She observed certain things about those deaths. But because you didn’t like her observations, you immediately jumped into the attack.

I’ve told you about my father appearing in my room the night he died, and his hideous scream at the end. You didn’t like that either, and again went on the attack.

It might be a good idea if you gave the rest of us some credit for intelligence, even if you don’t like our personal observations or conclusions.

QUOTE]

Its not myself that is confused with the personal observations. Here are the things which I am commenting on, do these conclusions really make sense to you?
  1. Absolute refusal to forgive when asked by another
  2. Some kind of a delusional thought that a deceased human being is in hell.
  3. Appointing personalities and death experience in a suggestive…“go figure” alongside
    obvious evaluation of the state of the soul.
Whats important is how you feel. If you all feel comfortable indirectly passing some kind of in-direct judgment utilizing delusions, old people passing on with an infinite quantity of personalities, condition, life experience, medication. then so be it. Its just not my cup of coffee .

My great Aunt was a science teacher with the St Joseph Convent…A Nun her entire life. I was at her bedside. In real life, she called me her boyfriend because when she called our house, weekly or so, none of the nine children wanted to pick up…reason being the time and day of the call suggested it was her and not friends…I thought this was awful and wound up always picking up and chatting with her…she caught on, the poor lonely lady…she called me her boyfriend for fun…
I am not going to describe what went on at that bedside because it has bothered and upset me.
My brother was there with me as well. My folks, informed me that many times odd things happen and its not truly a sign of things in an exact way…according to this thread momentum , without the habit …you all would have your repugnant un-acceptable judgmental overtones…I’m not going to stand for it…not for one second…this is a public forum and there are others who you could be frightening with this non-sense.

Now Bob…you are judging again in myself, for commenting on very pointed illogical assertions in the state of the soul…as well serious inferences from our co contributing member here in this thread.

There comes a time to STOP…using things which have absolutely nothing to do with charity to excite a lively faith. These tendencies are morally wrong in my opinion.

However if you all are comfortable judging in this manner , perhaps the journey requires a progress which is very important. We all are called in a unique way as I’m told. Therefore …we will have to agree to disagree relative to individual understanding. I’m simply replying in a mature way on a forum which is public. I don’t truely feel this layed out theme is offering any
constructive inspiration. Fear is not inspiration…again from what I understand it is the least of all graces…please correct me if Im wrong…and correct me as well if I’m not seeing anything other then fear being used through judging to gather self momentum.
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Sorry too late to edit…

It would be disrespectful I think not to mention my great aunts name and particulars. Sister St Bride of the St Josephs Convent…Morrow Park…A science teacher for some 35 yrs at the all girl high school connected to the convent…Thankyou for all the chats on the phone Sister and will say three Hail Marys in appreciation of the fun times, on the phone and at the convent…👍
 
atheistgirl said:
Christopher Hitchens likewise. I understand he remained solid in his convictions to the end, and if there is a God, I would imagine intergrity, honesty, and living as best a life as you could in the circumstances must count for something.

Like him (CH) I just can not find that faith within me to belive.

Hitchens said he liked surprises 😃 Perhaps he’s got the surprise of his life 😃

Sarah x 🙂
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Have Christopher Hitchens or any atheists ever addressed the subject of these miracles? If so, what logical reasoning makes them discount these proofs?

The apparitions of the Virgin Mary prior to the Rwanda genocide. nytimes.com/1999/04/08/world/honoring-victims-of-the-rwandan-blood-bath.html

The tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe examined by Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, who graduated from Cornell University with a degree in environmental engineering, while working in IBM. When Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image’s eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.
examiner.com/roman-catholic-in-houston/our-lady-of-guadalupe-completely-beyond-scientific-explanation. The people are 1. Juan Diego unfolding his tilma & wearing a native hat of the period. 2. Bishop Zumarraga, staring at the tilma. 3. An Aztec servant of the bishop sitting in the style of an Indian. 4. A Spaniard of the bishop’s staff. 5. A Spaniard who learned the indigenoous language & served as the bishop’s translator. 6. A black African female servant girl – documentary evidence shows in fact, that the bishop did have an African female servant. 7. Seven members of an indigenous family – a mother carrying a baby on her back, a father, a grandmother and grandfather, and two young children. [CITATION] Los ojos de la Virgen de Guadalupe
JA Tonsmann - 1981 - Editorial Diana (Can be found on google scholar)

The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano surviving to this day, and studied in a journal recognized by the US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health. Quad Sclavo Diagn. 1971 Sep;7(3):661-74.
[Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century)]. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729
 
LovePatience said:
Have Christopher Hitchens or any atheists ever addressed the subject of these miracles? If so, what logical reasoning makes them discount these proofs?
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I dont know, it might be interesting to look it up. But I dont think the fact that something is currently unexplained, is ‘‘proof’’ of a miracle. I would imagine Hitchens would simply say something remains unexplained, for now.

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
I dont know, it might be interesting to look it up. But I dont think the fact that something is currently unexplained, is ‘‘proof’’ of a miracle. I would imagine Hitchens would simply say something remains unexplained, for now.
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An appeal to ignorance is far less convincing than a reasonable explanation. 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
An appeal to ignorance is far less convincing than a reasonable explanation. 🙂
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How can honestly claiming not to know something be more convincing than an explanation that can not be proved, ie a miracle?

Personally, I find an honest ‘‘I dont know’’ far more convincing and productive than any claim of the supernatural.

Sarah x 🙂
 
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