Need ladies' input

[Dan_Daly]

I’m basing my analysis on the Catholic teachings regarding the meaning of life and the means of our salvation. From the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. Why did God make you?
A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.

Q. What must we do to save our souls?
A. To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in
Him, and love Him with all our heart.

I look at the question the same way we should look at any question- does doing “X” (in this case a woman going to college) us closer or farther away from God?

There is a tradition of Catholic belief, which I referenced earlier, that a woman can best attain the purpose God made her for- to get to Heaven- by living in the home. So if a woman is going to live in the home, as either a wife or a single person, does she need to go to college? I would say no. (I’d also strongly argue you don’t need to go to college to have a good job outside the home, but I’ll try to stay on point and answer your particular question).

So if you don’t need to go to college, should you still go? My answer is no (for men and women). Why? Because it presents enormous occasions of sin, and if you can avoid an occassion of sin, you must do so.

Additionally, if a woman is called to live in the home, and I encourage her to train herself for a worldly career, I am setting her and any future husband of her’s up for discord and disappointment.

As I have said, I am ready and willing to care for daughters who do not have a religious vocation or a married one. This is an important part of what I’m saying. To say, “women shouldn’t train for a worldly career” and then cast them out into the world to fend for themselves, I agree would be cruel.

The root problem isn’t that women want to go to college. It’s that their father’s and husbands have failed to provide for and protect them, creating a need, sometimes real, sometimes percieved for the woman to do so.

Our society has largely lost the concept of a multi-generational home. My ideas are not novel ones, they simply largely forgotten ones. A father used to take care of his daughter until they were married or religions- this was normal and accepted for good reasons. Now we ship girls off to a hedonist college for a few years and then have them fend for themselves in a deeply imoral society without the benefit of manly protection. Adult children used to care for their parents in their old age, in the home. Now we ship the elderly off to “assisted living centers” where many are abused, and they can live in lonlieness instead of passing on their wisdom to their children and grandchildren.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

St. Gianna Baretta Molla was a doctor, she studied medicine and married after she finished her degree.

I have a beautiful Italian cousin who was widowed at 32 leaving her with 2 small children. She was/is a grammar school teacher, and devoted mother, and now grandmother. Her husband passed away 23 years ago. 23 years is a long time to have to depend on any life insurance policy dividends.

I remember being three, and visiting her home while she tutored other children and I just admired her so much. “My cousin is a teacher!” She was still in high school at the time, but she made me feel so much admiration.

 

[Katie966]

There is a tradition of Catholic belief, which I referenced earlier, that a woman can best attain the purpose God made her for- to get to Heaven- by living in the home. So if a woman is going to live in the home, as either a wife or a single person, does she need to go to college? I would say no. (I’d also strongly argue you don’t need to go to college to have a good job outside the home, but I’ll try to stay on point and answer your particular question).

Could you provide this reference again? I do not believe for one second that the Catholic church specifies the best way for a woman to reach heaven is to stay in the home.

The next time you or someone you love (god forbid) ends up needing care in a hospital, I would urge you to take a look around at all the excellent female doctors and nurses and re-evaluate your position about women going to college. I can’t really believe that anyone would suggest that we would better attain heaven by staying at home.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Duties Of A Husband
It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.

The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.

He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.

Duties Of A Wife
On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

This is from the Catechism of the Council of Trent also known as the Roman Catechism. It was the first (and one of only 2 along with the CCC) Catechism for the entire Church.

Pax and God Bless

 

[Dan_Daly]

I’ll say again, college is not the only place to gain education or training.

Also, why would a woman who is under the care of her husband or father, living in the home, be distressed or tempted because she didn’t have skills to do things she wasn’t doing?

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

St. Gianna Baretta Molla was a doctor, she studied medicine and married after she finished her degree.

I have a beautiful Italian cousin who was widowed at 32 leaving her with 2 small children. She was/is a grammar school teacher, and devoted mother, and now grandmother. Her husband passed away 23 years ago. 23 years is a long time to have to depend on any life insurance policy dividends.

I remember being three, and visiting her home while she tutored other children and I just admired her so much. “My cousin is a teacher!” She was still in high school at the time, but she made me feel so much admiration.

The Saints are great examples for us to follow. However, not everything every Saint does, is something every one of us should do. If you want to say “look there’s a female saint who went to college!” and do an honest survey of ALL the Saints of the Church, you will find FAR more women saints who didn’t go to college.

St. Gianna Molla was canonized in very large part because of what **she did as a mother for her children. ** Namely, she gave up her life that one of her children might live.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Actually I am married, and am incredibly blessed to be so. I’ve had this dicussion with my wife many times and guess what- she agrees!

I would never, ever, ever say that women are simple though. The female mind and spirit is complex and wonderous beyond my comphrension. Trying to grow in understanding of it is part of what a husband is called to do.

Pax

 

[Walking_Home]

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Yup — it looks that way to me too.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I would love to see the man foolish enough to try and tell my late mother she could not receive an education or travel as she chose, flowers would of course out of courtesy be provided for his funeral! And my own wife would do her patent pending ’ hard stare’ courtesy of Paddington Bear till the person proposing such ideas began to look emberassed.

Was your late mother one to defy her husband? If he had spoken to her with love and charity, would she have killed him (and ordered flowers for the funeral) or listened to the man she loves?

If you come to a conviction that something is True, and a way to greater holiness, you shouldn’t be embarrased because of what any man or woman thinks of the idea. Even your wife. This is hard thing to do, but it’s what God calls us to do.

Charity is the key to all things.

(Hard stares can be a very effective tool in life. I picked mine up courtesy of the USMC. Perhaps my wife and I could have you and yours over for tea, and we can have a stare off

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

That’s why I haven’t argued at all that my position is that others should do something because I do it or because my wife does it. I’ve argued it’s a position based in the Faith.

Pax.

 

[severus68]

You still have not answered the question in any manner- validating or not to me. You simply quoted a passage of the CCC back to me that I already had quoted to you.

A few more thoughts Pope Pius XII issued a series of letters to newlyweds on the topic of marriage. He quite clearly teaches on both the EQUALITY of husband and wife, AND the authority of the husband which comes from God. The two are complimentary concepts, not antagonistic ones. I read some of his writings last night in book form, but haven’t been able to find them online to post this morning. I will post when I find them for your reading.

Pax.

Actually you quoted 402.

 

[Walking_Home]

That’s why I haven’t argued at all that my position is that others should do something because I do it or because my wife does it. I’ve argued it’s a position based in the Faith.

Pax.

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All I am seeing is the --“women are property” – mentality of the past. It can be “re-packaged”–to cover it up —but it is there.

 

[Dan_Daly]

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Yup — it looks that way to me too.

Ahem. I’m not a student of Bishop Williamson. I know he’s a member of the SSPX. A society of which I am not a member. I know he has allegedly said some anti-semetic things. I say allegdly because I haven’t read or listened to what he was supposed to have said, so I don’t have the facts. Although based on a lack of rebuttal from SSPX, I’d assume (a dangerous thing) that he said what he was supposed to have said. I don’t know what his views on women, marriage, headship, or education are. If you want to smear me by association with a man that I don’t even know, I’d kindly ask you to stop.

If you want to make a counter argument to my argument please do so.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Actually you quoted 402.

Earlie in the thread, I posed the entire section on Adam’s sin. Including the paragraph I reposted, and the one you posted. Sometimes the pages in the thread fly by with too many posts, perhaps you missed it.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[severus68]

I do like living with my family. It’s what God has called me- and everyone with a family, to do. As far as “just” living in community with those of like mind, it’s a more difficult charge to answer. Yes, I do associate closely with other Catholics. We go to Mass together. We visit each other’s homes. We also “go out” into the world together to do things- pray outside the abortion mill, play at the park, etc.
say each of my Catholic friends and each of my family isn’t of “same mind” if that is what you mean by “like mind”. God has made each of us uniquely (but equally). None of us is the same, which is beautiful. I learn from others all the time and try to offer something for them to learn from me.

As I said, I do have a number of non-Catholic friends. And they are great friends. I love them, I enjoy them, I learn from them. I also pray for them to find the Church- and by the grace of God some of them have!

As an adult I’ve ironically found that many of my best friends are ones from the supposed “opposite end of the spectrum”. In some ways I’m very conservative- and some of my good friends are very liberal. It’s funny, but the “far right” and “far left” (I disagree with the terminology, but will use it for now) have much more in common then either has with the “moderate middle”. There is always room to find something in common to build a friendship on. Take you and me Severus- we seem to disagree on a lot. True. We also both appear to be passionate about our faith and our family.

As far as the world being full of evil- it is. God tells us so. All of life is a battle for souls. First we all fight for our own. As members of the Church militant we are called to be fisher’s of men and fight for our fellow men and women. As a husband and father, I have a special responsiblity for my wife and children. The wisest course when confronted by evil is not always the same. We need to avoid temptation as much as possible. When not possible- fight and defeat it. As children are especially precious, to me and to God, and not yet ready to fight evils on their own, it’s my job, and my wife’s to build them a suit of spiritual armor as long as they are in our care. So that when they do go out into the world, they are not unprepared and are ready for the battles God calls them to.

Pax and God Bless.

So are some of your friends women? Are you saying then some of your close friends do not take the position you do that a woman’s place is in the home under the authority of her father/husband?

Yes, we should teach our children well and arm them to face the world. However, from what you say, your daughters at least would never face the world on their own.

 

[Walking_Home]

Ahem. I’m not a student of Bishop Williamson. I know he’s a member of the SSPX. A society of which I am not a member. I know he has allegedly said some anti-semetic things. I say allegdly because I haven’t read or listened to what he was supposed to have said, so I don’t have the facts. Although based on a lack of rebuttal from SSPX, I’d assume (a dangerous thing) that he said what he was supposed to have said. I don’t know what his views on women, marriage, headship, or education are. If you want to smear me by association with a man that I don’t even know, I’d kindly ask you to stop.

If you want to make a counter argument to my argument please do so.

Pax and God Bless.

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It is not because of the bishop’s anti-semetic view — that I agreed with (name removed by moderator). It is because you and the said bishop --hold the same type of views on woman --that it seems like you took lessons from him.

 

[Dan_Daly]

So are some of your friends women? Are you saying then some of your close friends do not take the position you do that a woman’s place is in the home under the authority of her father/husband?

Yes, many of my friends are women. Not even counting my best friend (my Wife) or my Blessed Mother, I have lots of other friends who are women. Some of my friends agree with the views I’ve expressed in this thread. Some of them don’t. Does that suprise you? As I said, I’m not tightening down the hatches on my family bunker even if some accuse me of such.

Pax.

 

[severus68]

Yes, they have a right to live their lives as they want, so does everyone else.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Yes, we should teach our children well and arm them to face the world. However, from what you say, your daughters at least would never face the world on their own.

And why should they? God made us to be in community with one another. A man relies on his brothers and sisters in Christ as well, but a woman is deserving of a special dignity and protection. When Christ hung on the cross he didn’t tell Our Blessed Mother she was on her own. He entrusted her to the care of St. John the Apostle.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Yes, they have a right to live their lives as they want, so does everyone else.

That is the great lie of our culture. Nobody, man, woman or child has the right to live as they want. We only have the “right” to do what is…right. True freedom is not following the desires of our own will, rather it is submission of our will to the Divine Will.

A husband might want to abuse his wife.

A wife might want to betray her husband.

A child might want to be disobedient to their parents.

And they can all choose to do those things, but they have no right to.

Pax.