Need ladies' input

[Katie966]

I have a feeling that I’m going to read an answer that “nursing is women’s work” and “the only doctors that should be female are OB/GYNs…so they can protect a women’s modesty” and “those medical professions should be done by nuns of religious order that focuses on healthcare”.

Haha, you’re probably right.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

No we are simply working towards a world where everyone is a saint, starting with ourselves. Which is exactly Christ and the Church have told us to do. Sainthood is a goal within the reach of every man and woman, thanks to Christ’s redeeming death.

But making plans based on the assumption that most people are (or soon will be) saints is unrealistic and dangerous.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Really, Dan? You really don’t understand? Because it seems like everyone else in the thread DOES seem to understand. I don’t think you’re dumb - I think you’re just playing ignorant.

On a certain level, yes, everyone does have a right to go to college. If an individual is committed enough to their educational goals that they are willing to work a job to support their rent and bills, take out loans to foot their college tuition, and work hard enough to make great grades, then they DO have a right to an education if that is what they’ve put all of their effort and time into. Even if they are denied from every state/private college, they still have the option of attending a community college, which with very few exceptions accepts just about anyone interested in learning for a very, very low tuition.

What Walking meant, Dan, is that if a woman fulfills all of these pre-requisites, then she does have the freedom to attend college and gain an education. You are suggesting that this is somehow against “God’s plan,” even though Catholic dogma nowhere denies or forbids women from becoming educated and seeking employment outside of the home. You’re also arguing semantics, which even as an English grad I find extremely irksome.

Also, it irks me, because now you seem to be toting your decision to restrict your future daughters’ educational endeavors on the basis of the freedom for you to raise your daughters however you want. That’s fine, even though I VEHEMENTLY disagree, live and let live. But don’t tell others that you are somehow backing it up based on Catholic theology, and don’t tell others that they need to also restrict their daughters from gaining an education. You muddle the lines between personal opinion and dogma too much, which is scary to me. Reread my post which you have yet to respond to for another Catholic family’s experience with uneducated members.

And finally, I disagree that I am best suited to educate my children in every academic subject. I will leave that up to multiple people with a wide array of respective degrees to give my children as well-rounded an education as possible.

Well put.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

That’s Church teaching, not my opinion. It can hardly be my opinion since I wasn’t born at the time it was written. So it’s reasonable to say my position is backed by Catholic theology- when it’s backed by Catholic theology. If you want to dispute the theology go ahead, but you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.

I have also never said, that I don’t want my daughters or anyone else’s not to get an education or to live in ingnorance. On the contrary, I’ve advocated lifelong learning for everyone- male and female. What I have said is there is a difference between education and college.

Pax and God Bless.

Even if we assume that that was once official Church teaching, it isn’t anymore. Plenty of more recent official Catholic documents (especially those written by Pope John Paul II concerning women) embraced a more fair and even handed approach to women.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’ve already done so a few times in the thread. In brief summary:

Anyone, male or female, must weigh the costs/benefits of any decision, including going to college. As our primary purpose in life is to go to heave, the costs/benefits which must be given paramount consideration are the spiritual ones. The benefits of a college education are largely material: earning potential, connections made and a degree open doors for jobs, etc. The costs are largely spiritual- very grave occasions of sin, at least attempted indoctrination into a number of heresies. Not all colleges are equal in this regard. There are a few truly Catholic colleges in the US. Most so-called Catholic schools and nearly all others are really bad spiritually speaking. So if the benefits are materialistic (not as important as the spiritual to begin with) and not essential to a homemaker, and the costs are spiritual (of vital importance) and especially grave- the decision not to go to school is quite reasonable and in line with Church teaching.

Pax!

And what is the *bare essentials *that women need to be taught to be homemakers?

Is it even necessary to teach them to read (if we assume that a woman’s purpose in life is just giving birth to and raising children, as well as pleasing her man)?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dan Daly your message has been remarkably consistent throughout this thread, so rather than replying to 10 or more posts, I will simply ask you about the core points.

1. If women are not meant to work or ever leave the home (and the authority of a father or husband) then why bother educating then at all?

They don’t need an education to work outside the home, and they don’t need to be able to make informed decisions because there will always be a man around to handle the hard choices (assuming we accept your premise). So according to your logic isn’t educating girls just a waste of time and money?

1. How can women be equal in any meaningful (earthly) way if they have no power in the home, church, or society (if women are not allowed to pursue positions of power or influence in business, politics, or the church, and cannot be leaders at home)?

Because that is exactly what you have been advocating in this thread.
That women stay home under the authority of a man, and make no attempt to seek fame and fortune (or change the world at large for the better).

1. Do you really think a woman should always ask her husband’s or father’s permission to leave the house?
   That a woman’s movements, decisions, options, and focus should always be controlled by a male authority figure?
2. Do you have any idea of how women are treated in parts of the world where people still live according to the principals you have advocated in this thread?

You never answered my original questions Dan.

Is that because you simply don’t want to, or because you can’t?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You need to consider statistics within their context. These include older adults who are retired and are no longer in the workforce. For these people, it wasn’t a necessity to have a degree. They were able to make a living because our economy was very different.

Additionally, you need to look at average earnings for college graduates versus those with a high school education or less. Quoting random statistics without a context doesn’t help your case at all.

Can you make a good living without a degree? Sure, but not for most occupations. But that isn’t even the point here. You are making the case that people should not attend college and pretending that we still live in the 16th century, while being offensive to women in the process.

You never responded to my previous post, and I’m very curious as to what you think of any female doctors or nurses who have ever taken care of you or a family member. Would you tell them to their face that they never should have been “allowed” to go to college while they are caring for you?

Don’t take it personally Dan Daly ignored my post too.
I suspect Dan here is simply ignoring all the questions posed to him that make him feel uncomfortable or are difficult to answer.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

A few days ago. Brother JR wrote a beautiful post regarding women and their role in scoiety and the Church.

His user name is JReducation. Please read what he wrote.

As always, his writings are so fitting to his username.

 

[severus68]

A few days ago. Brother JR wrote a beautiful post regarding women and their role in scoiety and the Church.

His user name is JReducation. Please read what he wrote.

As always, his writings are so fitting to his username.

I read that post, thanks. Is that one about women being managers?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I read that post, thanks. Is that one about women being managers?

:yup:

 

[Catholic90]

I have not read all the posts, but I must add this:

Going to college was one of the best things I as a female could have done out of high school.

• It is in college that I discovered Catholicism and converted.
• It is in college that I met the man who would become my husband and the father of my 3 wonderful children.
• It is in college that I met the couple who became the Godparents to my oldest son.
• It is in college that I met the women who would become my very best friends, the Godmothers of my children, and the ones who are there for me to lean on and offer their shoulders to cry on when I needed it.
• It is in college that I first met the man who would be priest at the parish I have now attended for over 20 years.
• It is in college where I earned a degree that allowed me to work in the medical field for 6 years until I had my first child almost 20 years ago.
• It was because of my college degree that I was able to obtain my teaching job to help support my family and work around my kids’ schedules when my husband became sick and could not work to his full potential. (He had disability insurance, but he was not “sick enough” to collect; yet he was too sick to work full time.)

Fortunately, DH had quite a nice life insurance policy. Unfortunately, DH left a lot of bills that had to be paid out of the life insurance. Fortunately, I have a degree and a job because of the degree that I can still keep my teaching job and send 2 of kids to college and 1 to a Catholic high school. AND I get my summers off to spend all day on CAF, paint my house, sleep in til 10 am, or whatever else I choose to do.

All I know is that without me going to college, my life would be drastically different, and probably not for the better. I would probably be stuck in the very small town I was born in, married to another who never went to college (very few of my classmates attended college), and living well under my potential.

I am insisting my boys attend college. They are smart, they are well-grounded, and they have much better chances of getting a job in their chosen career field with a degree (in fact, a degree is required for what my boys want to do). If I daughters instead of sons, I would insist the same - a college education. One will graduate with no debt, and one may have some debt, but I have every reason to believe he will have it paid off within a very short time.

There are no guarantees in life - no guarantee of a husband, no guarantee of a long life if one does get married, and no guarantee something bad will not happen.

 

[horselvr]

Catholic90:

I think Dan will come back on and explain to you that you were supose to sit idly by while the men in the family took care of you.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Catholic90:

I think Dan will come back on and explain to you that you were supose to sit idly by while the men in the family took care of you.

Maybe…

But I think I might have scared Dan off.
In my experience people like him don’t react well to being called on their BS.

 

[Catholic90]

Catholic90:

I think Dan will come back on and explain to you that you were supose to sit idly by while the men in the family took care of you.

Yeah…that is not happening! My brother-in-laws are great guys, but they each have their own wives and kids to take care of. My father-in-law in all but broke and must keep working at age 73 to keep his house. My own father has a whole farm to take care of.

I can do it, so why wouldn’t I?

I painted my own house.
I finished the deck.
I mow.
I prune trees.

So I do not accept poor excuses from my students either!

 

[severus68]

I have not read all the posts, but I must add this:

Going to college was one of the best things I as a female could have done out of high school.

• It is in college that I discovered Catholicism and converted.
• It is in college that I met the man who would become my husband and the father of my 3 wonderful children.
• It is in college that I met the couple who became the Godparents to my oldest son.
• It is in college that I met the women who would become my very best friends, the Godmothers of my children, and the ones who are there for me to lean on and offer their shoulders to cry on when I needed it.
• It is in college that I first met the man who would be priest at the parish I have now attended for over 20 years.
• It is in college where I earned a degree that allowed me to work in the medical field for 6 years until I had my first child almost 20 years ago.
• It was because of my college degree that I was able to obtain my teaching job to help support my family and work around my kids’ schedules when my husband became sick and could not work to his full potential. (He had disability insurance, but he was not “sick enough” to collect; yet he was too sick to work full time.)

Fortunately, DH had quite a nice life insurance policy. Unfortunately, DH left a lot of bills that had to be paid out of the life insurance. Fortunately, I have a degree and a job because of the degree that I can still keep my teaching job and send 2 of kids to college and 1 to a Catholic high school. AND I get my summers off to spend all day on CAF, paint my house, sleep in til 10 am, or whatever else I choose to do.

All I know is that without me going to college, my life would be drastically different, and probably not for the better. I would probably be stuck in the very small town I was born in, married to another who never went to college (very few of my classmates attended college), and living well under my potential.

I am insisting my boys attend college. They are smart, they are well-grounded, and they have much better chances of getting a job in their chosen career field with a degree (in fact, a degree is required for what my boys want to do). If I daughters instead of sons, I would insist the same - a college education. One will graduate with no debt, and one may have some debt, but I have every reason to believe he will have it paid off within a very short time.

There are no guarantees in life - no guarantee of a husband, no guarantee of a long life if one does get married, and no guarantee something bad will not happen.

Great post. Yes, there are no guarantees in life. We should try to bring up our children to be strong, capable individuals. Strong capable parents like you, are the best example.

 

[horselvr]

"Yeah…that is not happening! My brother-in-laws are great guys, but they each have their own wives and kids to take care of. My father-in-law in all but broke and must keep working at age 73 to keep his house. My own father has a whole farm to take care of.

“I can do it, so why wouldn’t I?”

Well, because DAN has told you you shouldn’t. You are the poor damsil in distress and should sit quietly until Prince Charming comes along to rescue you.

“I painted my own house.
I finished the deck.
I mow.
I prune trees.”

Oh Oh—I do hope that when you do all this outside work that you make sure you are covered properly, or are you one of those women that is a temptress wearing shorts above the knee or a sleeveless top while working outside ? And you can’t possible be FEMININE since you do outside chores—by the way, make sure you ask a male in the family if it is OK for you to go outside. OK?

It’s 100 degrees here and I just got off the tractor BUT I made sure I dressed appropriately (covered from head to toe) as DAN instructs so I don’t sexually arouse the 80 yr old farmer across from me.

 

[catholicmamajoy]

I’m still waiting for a reply to any** of the questions I presented to Mr. Daly. I would really love to know what jobs he thinks a women can get to support themselves or family with nothing more than a high school education. Perhaps he’s thinking of those that can be obtained with a vocational school education. That works well for men, since there are still many well-paid blue collar trades that can be learned via an apprenticeship or vo-tech school…but not more than a couple of those vo-tech jobs would really work well for women, and since I really can’t see Mr. Daly approving of his daughters learning how to be a plumber or an agricultural equipment mechanic, I would really like to know what jobs are out there than he thinks a women can get to support herself and her children if she has no education or appropriate training (from an apprenticeship or vo-tech school) after high school.

I’m truly hoping, after reading some of the comments on here about women and education, that he now understands that wishing for a life, complete with an economy, from the 1950’s may be charming and nostalgic, but far from realistic or responsible. You can’t always depend on others (family, friends, etc) to haul you out of an financial disaster and I can’t imagine any father would care to stand before Our heavenly Father God and learn that they had failed in ensuring their daughters were given the opportunity to learn how to take care of themselves and not end up as a career welfare recipient.

I always respond to the questions presented to me on CAF, so I’m hoping for the courtesy of a reply to those I have presented on here. While I may not agree with Mr. Daly’s answer, I would appreciate a reply so that we can at least see that he has read the posts and replies on this thread that perpetuate at his instigating.

 

[severus68]

"Yeah…that is not happening! My brother-in-laws are great guys, but they each have their own wives and kids to take care of. My father-in-law in all but broke and must keep working at age 73 to keep his house. My own father has a whole farm to take care of.

“I can do it, so why wouldn’t I?”

Well, because DAN has told you you shouldn’t. You are the poor damsil in distress and should sit quietly until Prince Charming comes along to rescue you.

“I painted my own house.
I finished the deck.
I mow.
I prune trees.”

Oh Oh—I do hope that when you do all this outside work that you make sure you are covered properly, or are you one of those women that is a temptress wearing shorts above the knee or a sleeveless top while working outside ? And you can’t possible be FEMININE since you do outside chores—by the way, make sure you ask a male in the family if it is OK for you to go outside. OK?

It’s 100 degrees here and I just got off the tractor BUT I made sure I dressed appropriately (covered from head to toe) as DAN instructs so I don’t sexually arouse the 80 yr old farmer across from me.

Needed some humour, tough day, thanks.

 

[Catholic90]

"Yeah…that is not happening! My brother-in-laws are great guys, but they each have their own wives and kids to take care of. My father-in-law in all but broke and must keep working at age 73 to keep his house. My own father has a whole farm to take care of.

“I can do it, so why wouldn’t I?”

*Well, because DAN has told you you shouldn’t. You are the poor damsil in distress and should sit quietly until Prince Charming comes along to rescue you. *

“I painted my own house.
I finished the deck.
I mow.
I prune trees.”

*Oh Oh—I do hope that when you do all this outside work that you make sure you are covered properly, or are you one of those women that is a temptress wearing shorts above the knee or a sleeveless top while working outside ? And you can’t possible be FEMININE since you do outside chores—by the way, make sure you ask a male in the family if it is OK for you to go outside. OK?

It’s 100 degrees here and I just got off the tractor BUT I made sure I dressed appropriately (covered from head to toe) as DAN instructs so I don’t sexually arouse the 80 yr old farmer across from me.*

Ha, Ha! Yeah…I am anything but a damsel in distress!
As for Prince Charming…been there, done that, got the tshirt AND the momento photo, and not interested in round 2!

As for my attire when I paint, mow, prune…it is my standard summer attire…yes, ladies and gentlemen, tank top and shorts with a 7 inch inseam, plus my trusty flip flops. Everywhere and always! Yeah, I sweat. Yeah, I get a dark tan. Yeah, I work hard. Yeah, it feels great to accomplish all these things!

I don’t know who sees this mid-40 year old slightly overweight woman working, besides my sons and a few neighbors driving or walking by, but I am pretty sure I am not an occasion of lust when I am sweating, covered in paint droplets, and hauling tree branches to the fire pit to burn!

 

[Dan_Daly]

And what is the *bare essentials *that women need to be taught to be homemakers?

Is it even necessary to teach them to read (if we assume that a woman’s purpose in life is just giving birth to and raising children, as well as pleasing her man)?

Your comments are demeaning to women and men, and expressly not what I have said or advocated. A woman’s purpose in life is exactly the same as a man’s. To go to Heaven.

Pax.

PS- Reason I have not answered some questions yet, is I haven’t been on the computer all day. I will be happy to respond to questions.

Regarding women doctors and nurses-

No I don’t think nursing is “woman’s work”. As I’ve said repeatedly in this thread and others, everything must be done in Charity (love) or it’s not worth doing.

Yelling at a nurse treating you in the ER “GET THEE TO THY HOUSE WOMAN!” is stupid. It’s cruel. It’s not helpful to anyone. It’s a ridiculous stereotype of anyone who has a traditional Catholic view of patriachy in the family and society. It may be what some here might want me to be, but I am not.

Rather, saying a silent prayer for the woman that she might grow in awareness of God’s plan for her life would be a charitable thing to do. Or if the opportunity presents itself to speak to her, or her husband- if you know the family- and ask her if she has considered staying at home. Many women who work outside the home will say…YES they would love to stay at home. I know because I’ve talked to lots of them.

Pax and God Bless.