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RidgeSprinter
Guest
And it can limit the culpability to the point it is no longer a sin.
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Sarcelle
Guest
You are correct, for now.
I have a hunch that euthanasia will be more widespread in the future and the option to die morphs into the duty to die.
I have a hunch that euthanasia will be more widespread in the future and the option to die morphs into the duty to die.
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_Ruby
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Even if numbers were to increase, the cost saving benefit is still negligible. By the time people come to the point of being at the stage of ‘unbearable pain’ or ‘terminal’, most the costly attempts at cure or intensive management have been spent. Pain management at end of life care is cheaper than intensive therapies during life care.
Euthanasia as a treatment plan is like trying to haggle 100 euro off a 100,000 euro bill.
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Dr_Meinheimer
Guest
Your mentality is common, and it should not be confused with being “moral” or “Catholic.”
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RidgeSprinter
Guest
Yet in Maccabees:
2Ma 14:37 Now Razias, one of the ancients of Jerusalem, was accused to Nicanor, a man that was a lover of the city, and of good report, who for his kindness was called the father of the Jews.
2Ma 14:38 This man, for a long time, had held fast his purpose of keeping himself pure in the Jews’ religion, and was ready to expose his body and life, that he might persevere therein.
2Ma 14:39 So Nicanor being willing to declare the hatred that he bore the Jews, sent five hundred soldiers to take him.
2Ma 14:40 For he thought by ensnaring him to hurt the Jews very much.
2Ma 14:41 Now as the multitude sought to rush into his house, and to break open the door, and to set fire to it, when he was ready to be taken, he struck himself with his sword:
2Ma 14:42 Choosing to die nobly rather than to fall into the hands of the wicked, and to suffer abuses unbecoming his noble birth.
Life is not as black and white as the CCC or the church. Our own parish has had 2 priests commit suicide in the last 10 years and I’ve yet to get an affirmative from a Priest in our Diocese that the Priest is doomed to hell because of what the CCC says about it being a sin. They get real uncomfortable when asked.
A few years back, I was responsible for driving away 4 possible converts away because I gave the same CCC arguments that have been presented to me here when the Priest giving the RCIA class tried to circumvent the CCC about suicide. After the 4 left the class, the Priest said, “I no longer think the Church and CCC is correct in this matter. As Improvements and Understanding in Psychology have developed in the understanding of Suicide, the Church may have to one day change it’s teaching just like they did with Limbo nonsense. They left Limbo out of the current CCC when it was formulated because it had fundamental problems”
2Ma 14:37 Now Razias, one of the ancients of Jerusalem, was accused to Nicanor, a man that was a lover of the city, and of good report, who for his kindness was called the father of the Jews.
2Ma 14:38 This man, for a long time, had held fast his purpose of keeping himself pure in the Jews’ religion, and was ready to expose his body and life, that he might persevere therein.
2Ma 14:39 So Nicanor being willing to declare the hatred that he bore the Jews, sent five hundred soldiers to take him.
2Ma 14:40 For he thought by ensnaring him to hurt the Jews very much.
2Ma 14:41 Now as the multitude sought to rush into his house, and to break open the door, and to set fire to it, when he was ready to be taken, he struck himself with his sword:
2Ma 14:42 Choosing to die nobly rather than to fall into the hands of the wicked, and to suffer abuses unbecoming his noble birth.
Life is not as black and white as the CCC or the church. Our own parish has had 2 priests commit suicide in the last 10 years and I’ve yet to get an affirmative from a Priest in our Diocese that the Priest is doomed to hell because of what the CCC says about it being a sin. They get real uncomfortable when asked.
A few years back, I was responsible for driving away 4 possible converts away because I gave the same CCC arguments that have been presented to me here when the Priest giving the RCIA class tried to circumvent the CCC about suicide. After the 4 left the class, the Priest said, “I no longer think the Church and CCC is correct in this matter. As Improvements and Understanding in Psychology have developed in the understanding of Suicide, the Church may have to one day change it’s teaching just like they did with Limbo nonsense. They left Limbo out of the current CCC when it was formulated because it had fundamental problems”
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RidgeSprinter
Guest
Haydock:
Ver. 41. He struck himself, &c. S. Augustine (Epist. lxi. ad Dulcitium et lib. 2. cap. 23. ad Epist. 2. Gaud.) discussing this fact of Razias, says that the holy Scripture relates it, but doth not praise it, as to be admired or imitated, and that it was not well done by him, or at least not proper in this time of grace*** . Ch. — Whether he was thus inspired or not, we dare not decide. The Jews infer from the conduct of Samson, Saul, and Razias, that suicide is lawful when a person fears being overcome by torments, or giving occasion to other’s blasphemy. But Christianity lays down better maxims ; (Rom. iii. 8.) and S. Aug. (c. Gaud. i. 31. and ep. 61 or 204) S. Thomas (ii. 2. q. 64. a. 5.) and others, disapprove of this action, observing that it is recorded and not praised, though other virtues of Razias be commended*** . C. — It was either not well done, or not to be imitated in this time of grace. S. Aug. ii. 23. contra ep. 2. Gaud. W. — Yet this holy doctor excuses Samson and some Christian virgins by saying that they acted by the direction of the Holy Spirit*** . Sup. et de Civ Dei. i. 21. H. Lyran. Tirinius — This seems to be here the case, as the fact appears to be commended. M.
The writer of Maccabees recorded it as being Noble. That is sufficient. Haydock is merely making an attempt to discredit the text because it contradicts Church teaching in effect making the scripture fit his personal narrative because the plain simple reading of the text violates his own narrative.
Ver. 41. He struck himself, &c. S. Augustine (Epist. lxi. ad Dulcitium et lib. 2. cap. 23. ad Epist. 2. Gaud.) discussing this fact of Razias, says that the holy Scripture relates it, but doth not praise it, as to be admired or imitated, and that it was not well done by him, or at least not proper in this time of grace*** . Ch. — Whether he was thus inspired or not, we dare not decide. The Jews infer from the conduct of Samson, Saul, and Razias, that suicide is lawful when a person fears being overcome by torments, or giving occasion to other’s blasphemy. But Christianity lays down better maxims ; (Rom. iii. 8.) and S. Aug. (c. Gaud. i. 31. and ep. 61 or 204) S. Thomas (ii. 2. q. 64. a. 5.) and others, disapprove of this action, observing that it is recorded and not praised, though other virtues of Razias be commended*** . C. — It was either not well done, or not to be imitated in this time of grace. S. Aug. ii. 23. contra ep. 2. Gaud. W. — Yet this holy doctor excuses Samson and some Christian virgins by saying that they acted by the direction of the Holy Spirit*** . Sup. et de Civ Dei. i. 21. H. Lyran. Tirinius — This seems to be here the case, as the fact appears to be commended. M.
The writer of Maccabees recorded it as being Noble. That is sufficient. Haydock is merely making an attempt to discredit the text because it contradicts Church teaching in effect making the scripture fit his personal narrative because the plain simple reading of the text violates his own narrative.
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Zerge
Guest
According to your ethical system.
I am aware of that. I was simply curious if you have a personal opinion.
Obviously it is not Catholic… but whether it is “moral” or not - it depends of your ethical system. Don’t be confused, there are many ethical systems, and the catholic one is just one of them.
I am not interested in trying to change your minds. I asked something, and you answered. But I can express my dismay about how incredibly inhuman and inhumane your attitude is. Far be it from me to wish that you be exposed to your own, personal “Room one-oh-one” (if you know what I mean), but it would do you a world of good to experience what makes others to beg to be put out of their misery. And you would decline their plight, and say: “That is your cross, bear it, and offer it to God…”.
. . . .
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ioannes_pius
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RidgeSprinter
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In the End the he succeeded. He was persistent.
Even though it’s not celebrated is not relevant. Or is it celebrated? His suicide event goes from verse 37 to verse 46 where he finally succeeds. The writer did not know the thoughts of Razias, but he did believe the act of the suicide was Noble. he struck himself with his sword: Choosing to die nobly
God allows all to happen to those that believe. We may not understand why he allows, but he does.
It is already legal in the United States by a 7-2 vote of SCOTUS and has stood against the test of time for 48 years. And I highly doubt anything thing will change that ruling. And if by chance it does, it will not make abortion illegal. It will just remand it back to the state level. If a woman can’t get an abortion in her state, she can just cross state lines and get one. Overturning Roe vs Wade will not solve the abortion problem. Like it or not Religion in the US is falling by the wayside. US is becoming all about ME. Our children are becoming more and more anti-church as each year goes by. Because my wife pushed Catholicism down the throats of our children, they have walked away from the Church as soon as they got married. My wife is struggling to get our 2 granddaughters to attend CCD. Half the kids that graduated from our Parish have stopped attending Mass.
Even though it’s not celebrated is not relevant. Or is it celebrated? His suicide event goes from verse 37 to verse 46 where he finally succeeds. The writer did not know the thoughts of Razias, but he did believe the act of the suicide was Noble. he struck himself with his sword: Choosing to die nobly
God allows all to happen to those that believe. We may not understand why he allows, but he does.
It is already legal in the United States by a 7-2 vote of SCOTUS and has stood against the test of time for 48 years. And I highly doubt anything thing will change that ruling. And if by chance it does, it will not make abortion illegal. It will just remand it back to the state level. If a woman can’t get an abortion in her state, she can just cross state lines and get one. Overturning Roe vs Wade will not solve the abortion problem. Like it or not Religion in the US is falling by the wayside. US is becoming all about ME. Our children are becoming more and more anti-church as each year goes by. Because my wife pushed Catholicism down the throats of our children, they have walked away from the Church as soon as they got married. My wife is struggling to get our 2 granddaughters to attend CCD. Half the kids that graduated from our Parish have stopped attending Mass.
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RidgeSprinter
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You are dead wrong.
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RidgeSprinter
Guest
I don’t support single issue concept. Neither does the pope:
You have to read the Pope’s own words in his encyclical “Gaudete et Exsultate.”
And scroll down to item 101
Equally sacred, however, are
You have to read the Pope’s own words in his encyclical “Gaudete et Exsultate.”
And scroll down to item 101
- The other harmful ideological error is found in those who find suspect the social engagement of others, seeing it as superficial, worldly, secular, materialist, communist or populist. Or they relativize it, as if there are other more important matters, or the only thing that counts is one particular ethical issue or cause that they themselves defend. Our defence of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development. Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection.[84] We cannot uphold an ideal of holiness that would ignore injustice in a world where some revel, spend with abandon and live only for the latest consumer goods, even as others look on from afar, living their entire lives in abject poverty.
Equally sacred, however, are
- the lives of the poor,
- those already born,
- the destitute,
- the abandoned
- the underprivileged,
- the vulnerable infirm
- elderly exposed to covert euthanasia,
- the victims of human trafficking,
- new forms of slavery,
- every form of rejection.
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RidgeSprinter
Guest
Preeminent is a political excuse tool word created by the USCCB.
I also believe in concept of Separation of Church and State.
Ergo:
Keep your Religion out of my Politics.
Keep your Politics out of my Religion.
Is that what the Pope concluded?
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ioannes_pius
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Nevertheless, the act of suicide remains immoral.
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RidgeSprinter
Guest
In the eye of the Beholder.
The Jews did not believe so.
The Jews believed under certain conditions Suicide was Noble.
Haydock tried to put a Catholic spin on the Jewish writings. He should of left well enough alone and left commentary to the New Testament.
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Annie
Guest
First, the Church has never said that any particular person is in Hell, so why would these priests say that someone was?
Second, the Church teaches that various factors reduce culpability for sin.
In the case of suicide, the Church used to err on the side of caution and would not permit burial in consecrated ground, now we err on the other side of caution and allow it.
Nowadays we consider suicide to generally be the result of psychological difficulties, but that is the way it is on our current culture. That is not the way it has always been, that is not the way it is everywhere.
Consider assisted suicide. Apparently in the Netherlands they consider this form of suicide to be a rational decision since they do allow it and do not try to heal the underlying mental health issues. A person involved in committing or assisting in this type of suicide could very well be culpable.
Your priests seem to be unaware of Church thinking in this area that has existed for decades:
From the CCC:
This surprise me…[2283](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2283.htm’)
We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
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Annie
Guest
And they could not be wrong?
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Sarcelle
Guest
If someone pushes another out of the path of a moving car, knowing full well they could get hit and get killed themselves, is this suicide?
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RhodesianSon
Guest
No, that’s self sacrifice for another. Greater love hath no man who lays his life down for a brother
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Annie
Guest
As a general rule no.
If the intention of the act is not to kill oneself, and the end of the act is not to kill oneself, then how could it be considered suicide?
If the intention of the act is not to kill oneself, and the end of the act is not to kill oneself, then how could it be considered suicide?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
One has to seriously consider the degree to which acceptance of things like abortion and defiance of Catholic or other church teaching has led to this. Mainline protestant churches now accept child killing (abortion) sexual perversion (homosexual marriage) and moral relativism (primacy of conscience). Many Catholics do as well, including many Catholic clerics. It’s a wonder as many faithful Catholics remain as do. It’s a wonder as many protestants remain faithful to the bible as do.
We hear a lot of clerics and others telling us that we ought to be moral in the sense of political action; usually to give Paul’s money to Peter, something that never quite seems to happen. It’s mostly just talk. But I suggest that nobody is going to be truly charitable unless he’s moral in his personal life. Charity requires humility, and humility requires a spirit of obedience. This society is all about ME just as you say, because it has learned that virtue is defined by ME. It’s what I think it is; what I decide it is, what makes me look good after I change the notion of morality to fit ME.
And if young people walk away from the Church, which they certainly do, one has to ask “from what do they think they’re walking away”? Well, after years of seeing me live without principles other than what the approval of an increasingly secular society requires, why would they want to emulate that? After years of no catechesis in school, in church, at home, do they think they’re walking away from anything at all? I am not sure why they would.
And when life itself is so cheap that we’re hardened to the death of children by disembowelment; when we see that as “your personal beliefs” or “your political position” and when we do nothing to impede it if for no reason other than to demonstrate to the young that some things are so befouling to our souls that we must oppose it whether it “will succeed” or not.
I do some work with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists in the prolife cause. I like them, first because they actually believe in God, and because they believe in a God that will hold them accountable for good and for evil. We’re told by all the cognoscenti that they’re “naive”, “simplistic”, “single issue”, “bitter clingers”. What they really are is actual believers. And there are Catholics who are the same way. And the two get along because at the core, they really believe the very same things.
And yes, I do see some of their children “walk away” from their denominations. No few of them “walk” into the Catholic Church. At least around here they do, and as soon as they realize their fondest desire “being close to Jesus” is achievable in the Eucharist, and that those moments between exiting the pew and walking back from Communion is the closest thing to heaven they will ever achieve on this earth, and that that moment is worth the humility and the self-sacrifice it takes to be a true Christian.
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