New poll confirms widespread dissent from Church moral teachings among US Catholics [CC]

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I know a person who gave his religious affiliation as “Catholic” when asked in a hospital. But he hasn’t come anywhere near a Catholic church for 40 years.
If the pre-Vatican II levels were a guide, then 70% would be the saturation level. Allowance has to be made for those unable to attend and let’s presume that hasn’t changed much.

But that’s probably an unfair comparison too, since with the Saturday and Sunday night services, there is probably more opportunity to go, yet few are taking advantage of it.
 
And for many, I am sure it is a good definition. What the study is showing, is that there are a whole lot of US Catholics who have differing definitions. Those definitions may not make sense to you, but they do to that large percentage of people.
I am minded of C. S. Lewis’ discussion of the meanings of the words “gentleman” and “Christian.” I’ll include the (sorry) long extract about the word “gentleman” here to give the sense of it:
C. S. Lewis:
Far deeper objections may be felt—and have been expressed— against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: “Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?” or “May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?” Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.

The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone “a gentleman” you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not “a gentleman” you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said—so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully—“Ah, but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?”

They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man “a gentleman” in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is “a gentleman” becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker’s attitude to that object. (A “nice” meal only means a meal the speaker likes.)

A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.
If you decide to define a “practicing Catholic” as something other than basically the definition that commenter provided, the term becomes meaningless. It therefore provides no useful data to a poll, and they should not use it, and nor can anyone else except as some sort of term of praise (or from an atheist or unsympathetic Protestant, possibly derision).

–Jen
 
All of these polls are really meaningless. The polls presume that “self-identified as Catholics” is the same as “Catholics.” You can claim to be anything but that does not make it so.

If a “Catholic” purports to be pro-birth control, pro-abortion, pro SSM, then he/she by definition is not a Catholic. So their opinion doesn’t count.
 
All of these polls are really meaningless. The polls presume that “self-identified as Catholics” is the same as “Catholics.” You can claim to be anything but that does not make it so.

If a “Catholic” purports to be pro-birth control, pro-abortion, pro SSM, then he/she by definition is not a Catholic. So their opinion doesn’t count.
Yes you might as well identify as “gay” even though you aren’t attracted to the same-sex!
 
All of these polls are really meaningless. The polls presume that “self-identified as Catholics” is the same as “Catholics.” You can claim to be anything but that does not make it so.

If a “Catholic” purports to be pro-birth control, pro-abortion, pro SSM, then he/she by definition is not a Catholic. So their opinion doesn’t count.
So how would you classify those who were baptized Catholic and sometimes attend mass whole disagreeing with certain church beliefs?
 
All of these polls are really meaningless. The polls presume that “self-identified as Catholics” is the same as “Catholics.” You can claim to be anything but that does not make it so.

If a “Catholic” purports to be pro-birth control, pro-abortion, pro SSM, then he/she by definition is not a Catholic. So their opinion doesn’t count.
👍👍👍

Very true.

Also this latest PEW poll is being sensationalized by journalists (Even in a Catholic publication) catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26010

After reading the detailed information in Gilliam’s post #3 I see no dissent. What I see is “acceptance”.

I can find no question that asks a Catholic if he/she “dissents” from a particular Church teaching. Yet the headline reads: **New poll confirms widespread dissent from Church moral teachings among US Catholics **

If I were asked, “Thinking about adults, what is your opinion about a samesex couple cohabitating ?” The given three possible responses:
  1. Acceptable and as good as any other way of life…
  2. Acceptably, but not as good as some others…
  3. Not acceptable…
…I would assume my “OPINION” on a subject is being requested…not my opinion of a Church teaching.

Therefore I would probably answer “Acceptable and as good as any other way of life”…for non-Catholics but unacceptable for Catholics. But the poll did not ask it that way…
 
All of these polls are really meaningless. The polls presume that “self-identified as Catholics” is the same as “Catholics.” You can claim to be anything but that does not make it so.

If a “Catholic” purports to be pro-birth control, pro-abortion, pro SSM, then he/she by definition is not a Catholic. So their opinion doesn’t count.
Actually it does make it so according to the Catholic Church. Although I know this is an ongoing debate on CAF, I would think the Catholic Church’s opinion about this would count on a Catholic answers forum. Those who say things such as he or she is not a Catholic or as an earlier poster said, “Well they are deluded if they identify themselves as Catholic”, frankly I don’t see how they are not picking and choosing too. Unless the Catholic Church is also deluded. Which I don’t for a minute think those of you saying such things believe that it is. But it merely causes confusion about the Catholic Church’s definition of who is a Catholic to those here to learn about the actual teachings of the faith. People can accept it or not I suppose but bolded here is the actual Catholic Church’s answer and definition of who is a Catholic:

“The Code of Canon Law currently does not recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church. You might become a non-practicing member, but the Church’s laws consider anyone baptized Catholic to always be Catholic.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12648280&postcount=2

So if someone is a Catholic according to the Catholic Church and they respond to a pollster or even at a hospital after 40 yrs of not attending Mass, that they are, I don’t see how that could be wrong at least according to the Catholic Church. I often think maybe the beef shouldn’t be with the person identifying Catholic then if people have a problem with the definition.
 
A lapsed Catholic is not a Catholic. If a lapsed Catholic wants to come back to the Church they need to embrace the teachings. A person who was once Catholic but who has fallen from the faith is NOT a Catholic.
See my above post. The Catholic Church does not recognize that someone can leave it. And yes they are Catholic at least according to the Catholic Church. But at least in reply to Thomas White you said, “That may be true.”
 
So how would you classify those who were baptized Catholic and sometimes attend mass whole disagreeing with certain church beliefs?
CEO’s - (Christmas and Easter Only). For all practical purposes they are non-practicing Catholics.
 
See my above post. The Catholic Church does not recognize that someone can leave it. And yes they are Catholic at least according to the Catholic Church. But at least in reply to Thomas White you said, “That may be true.”
Well, when I was a lapsed Catholic I wouldn’t dream of taking a poll like this. At that time I was Catholic in name only. I had very little sense of sin, or belief in Christ, and didn’t care much about the faith at all. I didn’t take religion seriously, and I suspect that most Catholics who are non-practicing are much like I was then.

It’s good that Catholics can always come home to the Mother Church, but until there is a conversion of the heart, they will not.
 
If my physician has an MD degree, he is a doctor. If he further decides that he does not accept any of the standard medical diagnoses and treatments and instead relies on palm reading and incantation, I suppose he might be classed as a heretical physician. But I would not take his views as indicative of medical orthodoxy.
 
Well, when I was a lapsed Catholic I wouldn’t dream of taking a poll like this. At that time I was Catholic in name only. I had very little sense of sin, or belief in Christ, and didn’t care much about the faith at all. I didn’t take religion seriously, and I suspect that most Catholics who are non-practicing are much like I was then.

It’s good that Catholics can always come home to the Mother Church, but until there is a conversion of the heart, they will not.
Well I can’t say the same and I’ve been called and polled before on political races, for POTUS, US House and Senate, and state races. I’ve enjoyed having my views polled.
 
Well I can’t say the same and I’ve been called and polled before on political races, for POTUS, US House and Senate, and state races. I’ve enjoyed having my views polled.
Yes but you are misrepresenting yourself. That seems dishonest to me.
 
So how would you classify those who were baptized Catholic and sometimes attend mass whole disagreeing with certain church beliefs?
Cafeteria Catholics but not “real” Catholics. Or CINOs - Catholics in Name Only.
 
This poll is news? There’s been “widespread dissent from Church moral teachings among US Catholics” since the late sixties.
 
CEO’s - (Christmas and Easter Only). For all practical purposes they are non-practicing Catholics.
Cafeteria Catholics but not “real” Catholics. Or CINOs - Catholics in Name Only.
But even those who claim to attend weekly there is still strong though not always majority support for changes that go against current teachings. They may not be “real” Catholics per your criteria but they are a large share of the overall group.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/09/PG-2015-09-02_usCatholics-48.png

Source: pewforum.org/2015/09/02/chapter-4-expectations-of-the-church/

Also, is it that hard to believe that one could attend mass regularly, pray, etc and still hold views contrary to the Church?
 
**PEW Poll? **
A majority of Catholics believe that the use of contraceptives, extra-marital sex, and remarriage after divorce are not sinful, according to the poll. More than a third of American Catholics (39%) do not believe that homosexual acts are sinful.
The Pew poll found that substantial minorities of self-identified Catholics think it is acceptable for children to be raised by unmarried couples (48%) or by same-sex couples (43%). A large majority (79%) think it acceptable for married couples to choose not to have children.
If these folks formed their own parish and had an election to name it – It might be the

"Chapel of the Perpetually Self-Indulgent". And the sacrifice of the mass might be … sacrificed for … almost anything else first. Harsh? Well, I may have been a former member. And I HOPE just FORMER!

Sometimes the “Pearl of Great Price” gets valued at … nothing. No sacrifice.

In favor of a new, ***voted upon, ***self-directed “way”! :frighten: - (gasp) "Hell’l ooh ya!" CAUTION!

youtube.com/watch?v=bAomKp9hfs4

Jesus on the many (majorities) and the few, re: Salvation
Matthew 7:13 – "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you.
Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined."
28 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
I don’t know if this is a peculiarly American thing … or a misunderstanding among so many American Catholics (apparently) that … though there are elections for parish posts and administrative things within the Church … not so with binding teachings.

Non-Catholic observers whose faith communities may even take votes to replace their pastors and such (per votes: HOW would Isaiah have done in his time I wonder?) seem to think these “poll numbers” have some sort of weight (beyond maybe secular politics - which of itself does not save).

I hope I have not deluded myself by uttering one of the silly … “Well … I believe …” things that not only are errors … but lead others down that broad road Jesus warns of in verse 13.

:eek: BUT I’ll bet I HAVE done it in sloppy conversation that didn’t SEEM like contradicting the Church’s binding authority. :doh2: *- Mea culpa! :imsorry: *
 
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