New poll confirms widespread dissent from Church moral teachings among US Catholics [CC]

[CaptFun]

Who was it that said “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics” ?

Mark Twain.

Boy does it apply here. This is an anti-Catholic “poll”. Pe-ew!

Look at trickery per “should the Church allow contraception?” WHERE is the word artificial? Most people know the Church allows NFP within what it permits. Abstinance too … 100 % effective … though only allowed “for a time” not forever if one is a partner in a marriage.

The dirty little jab in the headline about Church going Catholics being “less accepting” is a class warfare cultural assault and a false witness. I can’t believe it is passive and accidental. I don’t want to be a false witness myself here … but my antennae are up and and the message coming in looks like …

“Call Shenanigans!”

Church critics: Open minded … tolerant …* yadda yadda*

Church goers: More intolerant … on the “losing side of history” …*** double yadda yadda ***

JUST before Eve fell … she was quizzed on her theology by a tempter. FIRST he put the case wrong. She corrected him (correctly) … but she had entered into a conversation and he was through the barrier now.

After achieving the “we’re in dialogue” stage, the snake (who’d given Eve nothing) then posed the possibility that God … (who’d given her everything she had) … was actually selfish, bullying her with an unjust prohibition, and holding her BACK. She CONSIDERS all that … instead of dismissing it as the nonsense that it was. < I just fell for the same stuff in taking this poll seriously even as an intellectual exercise.

I was a bit like Eve in going through the next steps too. She LOOKS at the (forbidden) fruit … it SEEMS to her to be not only OK but in all probabillty good for eating AND the promised kinowledge … and what if he snake was right and she could be “like God”?

Soon after she ropes her husband into the same mess. And here I am still commenting upon this with all of you.

No more … PEW!

 

[ComplineSanFran]

But even those who claim to attend weekly there is still strong though not always majority support for changes that go against current teachings. They may not be “real” Catholics per your criteria but they are a large share of the overall group.

Also, is it that hard to believe that one could attend mass regularly, pray, etc and still hold views contrary to the Church?

Agree. And yes, one CAN go to mass, pray, and hold views contrary to the Church.

I think the Pew study gets that. That is what they are pointing out here. What they wanted to find out - and did - is where US Catholics fall in matters of belief and practice. And like it or not, a large percentage DO go to Mass, say their prayers, identify as Practicing Catholics, and disagree with the Church on major issues. It is what the US Catholic Church looks like these days.

Those of you who want a more exclusive definition of who is Catholic and who is not can lay it out as you wish. But it’s not the whole picture by any means.

 

[Thomas_White]

I suspect that if one surveyed only Catholics who attend Mass weekly, the results might find very little dissent. Those who dissent by not keeping the most basic of Catholic duties–attending Sunday Mass–will be more likely to dissent on other matters as well.

I know a person who gave his religious affiliation as “Catholic” when asked in a hospital. But he hasn’t come anywhere near a Catholic church for 40 years.

He gave the correct answer.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

But even those who claim to attend weekly there is still strong though not always majority support for changes that go against current teachings. They may not be “real” Catholics per your criteria but they are a large share of the overall group.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/09/PG-2015-09-02_usCatholics-48.png

Source: pewforum.org/2015/09/02/chapter-4-expectations-of-the-church/

Also, is it that hard to believe that one could attend mass regularly, pray, etc and still hold views contrary to the Church?

yes

 

[CHRISTINE77]

He gave the correct answer.

what do you mean?

 

[Jeanne_S]

I don’t think your first statement is true. In my circle, Roman Catholics are very progressive and very faithful. They will go to Mass and participate in many parish activities. They just disagree on all the things listed in the study - birth control, gender issues, marriage, divorce, and even abortion. Don’t equivocate practice of the faith with ‘political’ issues of the church.(That is probably the wrong word, sorry).

And as I said before, self-identifying Catholics can be anywhere along the continuum, even 40 years away from darkening the doors of a church.

So basically,these self identifying Catholics ,really,are nothing more than the name.How can one be truly a part of the faith,yet essentially disagree with most of what the Church believes? This is much like the disciples who,after awhile walked away from Christ because he no longer fit in to their idea of what they wanted him to be. If these church going Catholics,attend Mass,do they actively participate,recite and profess their faith through the Creed?In doing this they are stating that they believe in the truths and teachings of the Catholic Church. to then defy these teachings is not living and practicing the faith.

 

[Sy_Noe]

what do you mean?

I can’t speak for Thomas White but what I thought he meant was the person at the hospital who hadn’t been anywhere near a Catholic church for 40 yrs gave the true Catholic answer about being a Catholic. Assuming he was baptized or confirmed in a Catholic Church of course. And in that case, no until the Catholic Church changes its definition, he was not misrepresenting himself or being dishonest. He merely was going by what the Catholic Church told him and teaches on this.

(Btw in my case I haven’t joined another. I haven’t even attended another yet. Not that it would matter to the Catholic Church. Even if I did and identified with my new spiritual home, which I possibly would, to the Catholic Church I would still be a Catholic.)

 

[Sy_Noe]

Agree. And yes, one CAN go to mass, pray, and hold views contrary to the Church.

I think the Pew study gets that. That is what they are pointing out here. What they wanted to find out - and did - is where US Catholics fall in matters of belief and practice. And like it or not, a large percentage DO go to Mass, say their prayers, identify as Practicing Catholics, and disagree with the Church on major issues. It is what the US Catholic Church looks like these days.

Those of you who want a more exclusive definition of who is Catholic and who is not can lay it out as you wish. But it’s not the whole picture by any means.

Exactly. It is interesting to me though that an Anglican understands the definition isn’t more exclusive than some faithful Catholics seem to. But yes they can lay it out as they wish even if it’s not the whole picture.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

yes

Ok then, toss out the abc question. Are you saying that these people (regular mass attendees) don’t know/ fully understand the teachings or that an incredibly large number of respondents exaggerated their mass attendance?

Why if it hard to believe one can be part of a group and disagree with some of the group’s key positions? It occurs in just about any other grouping that occurs in life from unions to politics to friends to clubs and among others.

 

[JimG]

He gave the correct answer.

Yes, the man who was baptized Catholic but has not been to church in 40 years and knows nothing about his Faith, did give the correct answer. He remains a Catholic. He needs reconciliation and catechesis. But his answers to a poll about his “beliefs” as a Catholic are totally meaningless, since he knows nothing about Catholic belief.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Yes, the man who was baptized Catholic but has not been to church in 40 years and knows nothing about his Faith, did give the correct answer. He remains a Catholic. He needs reconciliation and catechesis. But his answers to a poll about his “beliefs” as a Catholic are totally meaningless, since he knows nothing about Catholic belief.

First of all, I don’t believe we are talking about an actual poll-responder, but rather a person who is known by JimG.

That doesn’t matter so much - it’s your comment that this person’s beliefs are meaningless because he knows nothing about Catholic belief. I can’t believe you mean that. A person’s intimate and personal beliefs about God are meaningless? No. I cannot go along with that. A person’s faith is valuable and precious.

And are you saying that a person must be educated about all things Catholic in order to be a meaningful Catholic?

Again, I cannot believe you mean that. A child has a simple faith. A fisherman in a Brazilian village who cannot read nor write may well have a faith stronger than you would ever have.

I would never judge what is between a person and God - even if that person has not been to church in 40 years. He calls himself a Catholic and that is that.

 

[Sy_Noe]

First of all, I don’t believe we are talking about an actual poll-responder, but rather a person who is known by JimG.

That doesn’t matter so much - it’s your comment that this person’s beliefs are meaningless because he knows nothing about Catholic belief. I can’t believe you mean that. A person’s intimate and personal beliefs about God are meaningless? No. I cannot go along with that. A person’s faith is valuable and precious.

And are you saying that a person must be educated about all things Catholic in order to be a meaningful Catholic?

Again, I cannot believe you mean that. A child has a simple faith. A fisherman in a Brazilian village who cannot read nor write may well have a faith stronger than you would ever have.

I would never judge what is between a person and God - even if that person has not been to church in 40 years. He calls himself a Catholic and that is that.

Beautifully and charitably and lovingly said.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, the man who was baptized Catholic but has not been to church in 40 years and knows nothing about his Faith, did give the correct answer. He remains a Catholic. He needs reconciliation and catechesis. But his answers to a poll about his “beliefs” as a Catholic are totally meaningless, since he knows nothing about Catholic belief.

Even if this man was to church 41 yrs ago, he probably knows something more than nothing. In fact I’d say a lot of people know more than nothing at all.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Ok then, toss out the abc question. Are you saying that these people (regular mass attendees) don’t know/ fully understand the teachings or that an incredibly large number of respondents exaggerated their mass attendance?

Why if it hard to believe one can be part of a group and disagree with some of the group’s key positions? It occurs in just about any other grouping that occurs in life from unions to politics to friends to clubs and among others.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Ok then, toss out the abc question. Are you saying that these people (regular mass attendees) don’t know/ fully understand the teachings or that an incredibly large number of respondents exaggerated their mass attendance?

Why if it hard to believe one can be part of a group and disagree with some of the group’s key positions? It occurs in just about any other grouping that occurs in life from unions to politics to friends to clubs and among others.

It’s not. I used to attend Mass to worship in the group, to pray. Once upon a time every wk. For a long time not every wk. I think the last time I was asked in a poll about my attendance average, it was once a mo and that’s what I told them. I didn’t lie. Now I no longer attend because I got tired of the types of things like I’m reading here. I’m not sure how a faithful Catholic would think that’s a good thing but that’s what happened.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Agree. And yes, one CAN go to mass, pray, and hold views contrary to the Church.

I think the Pew study gets that. That is what they are pointing out here. What they wanted to find out - and did - is where US Catholics fall in matters of belief and practice. And like it or not, a large percentage DO go to Mass, say their prayers, identify as Practicing Catholics, and disagree with the Church on major issues. It is what the US Catholic Church looks like these days.

Those of you who want a more exclusive definition of who is Catholic and who is not can lay it out as you wish. But it’s not the whole picture by any means.

I assume by ‘hold views contrary to the Church’ you mean on issues like, abortion, contraception, having sex outside of marriage? But if they engage in mortal sins, they are in mortal sin and unless they seek forgiveness they can’t have the Eucharist.

If you engage in grave moral sins, you place yourself at odds with the Church. You can’t fully participate in Church life if you don’t seek forgiveness.

 

[Tomdstone]

And yes, one CAN go to mass, pray, and hold views contrary to the Church…

According to the poll, 65% of Catholics who attend Mass at least once a week reject the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on artificial birth control?
A while back, there was a poll taken at a local Catholic (Jesuit) college and it was found that of the entering freshman, 50% rejected the Church’s teaching on ABC. It was also found that after four years of study at the Roman Catholic college, 90% of graduating seniors rejected the teaching.

 

[_Abyssinia]

About that poll on Catholics and the traditional family…

If you’ve read the news in the last few days, you may have heard about a recent Pew poll finding that most Catholics are fine with non-traditional families, along with homosexual behavior and other actions the Church teaches to be sinful.

What’s missing in most of these media reports is nuance. Going into the details of the Pew poll, one finds a significant difference between the views of practicing Catholics and non-practicing Catholics.

For example, when “Catholics” are lumped together as a group, only 39% polled believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, as the Church teaches. When narrowing the scope to Catholics who attend Mass at least once a week, that number jumps up to nearly 60%. While this still displays a need for catechesis among many Catholics, there is a 20-percentage point difference between the two figures. The headlines that ignored this discrepancy offered a misleading narrative that fails to show the true state of the Church.

The truth is that there is a wide gap between Catholics who practice their faith and those who say they are Catholic but do not practice their faith. Predictably, those who practice their faith are more likely to agree with what the Church teaches.

A recent Marist poll commissioned by the Knights of Columbus highlights this gap:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ATTU7BRK.png

And there’s another factor complicating the results of the Pew poll: the wording of the questions.

For example, when exploring the views of Catholics on different family situations, poll participants are asked if each situation – married parents, unmarried parents, same sex parents, single parents, and divorced parents – is a) “acceptable and as good as any other arrangement,” b) “acceptable but not as good as some others,” or c) “not acceptable.”

Andrew Walther, vice president of communications for the Knights of Columbus, explains:

"Is the average survey taker going to say that it is “not acceptable” for a child to be raised by a divorced parent or a single parent? Probably not in many cases, in part, because what would happen to the children in that situation then becomes unclear. So it is entirely reasonable to assume that the “not acceptable” number is going to be lower than it might be with different wording.

First, you have three responses: one is totally positive, one is partially positive, and one is unequivocally negative. There isn’t a “mostly negative” option.

Second, imagine that the word chosen for the survey had been “preferable” rather than acceptable. It is entirely possible that people would be much more likely to say something was “not preferable” to “not acceptable,” and this might give us all a better read on where respondents actually stand.

That said, even with the “acceptable” wording, and even looking at all self-identified Catholics regardless of whether they practice their faith, 90 percent told Pew that a married mother and father were “acceptable and as good as any other arrangement for raising children.” No other child-rearing arrangement they surveyed even got to 50 percent in that category. That’s telling.

There is some good data in this survey but the key to reading it – or any other – dealing with Catholic data is to look at the practicing Catholic numbers, as you would do with any other religion. It is there in the Pew survey, and in most others, and although it wasn’t highlighted it is central to what the data actually says about the Catholic faith in the United States."

catholicnewsagency.com/blog/about-that-poll-on-catholics-and-the-traditional-family/

 

[DrTaffy]

Cafeteria Catholics but not “real” Catholics. Or CINOs - Catholics in Name Only.

“No true Scotsmen”

 

[DrTaffy]

Yes, the man who was baptized Catholic but has not been to church in 40 years and knows nothing about his Faith, did give the correct answer. He remains a Catholic. He needs reconciliation and catechesis. But his answers to a poll about his “beliefs” as a Catholic are totally meaningless, since he knows nothing about Catholic belief.

He is a Catholic, and he knows what he believes.

If they want to know what the ‘official teaching’ of the Church is, they wouldn’t be polling people, would they? The catechism is online, and sites like this one offer professional answers to specific questions.