NFP is supposed to be good for marriage?

[Cerne]

I don’t agree with this notion at all, no offense. We all have to abstain in our marriages at times… whether it is because of using NFP, or because a spouse is ill, or our of town, or tired, etc etc… the list goes on.

Of course I know that if something happened to me, my husband would be there no matter what. I know that regardless of whether we ever end up having to abstain for a long period of time or not. And I know that we don’t see each other as “sex objects” just because we are married and have sex.

You may not see each other as sex objects but something is definitely lost from the marriage. I can only reiterate "When the idea that ‘I may become a father’/‘I may become a mother’ is totally rejected in the mind and will of husband and wife nothing is left of the marital relationship, objectively speaking, except mere sexual enjoyment. One person becomes an object of use for another person, which is incompatibile with the personalistic norm." Catholic teaching tries to impart into man what I can only describe as the ultimate sensitivity. To raise man to the level the creator has in mind for us.

Like I said, I see abstinence in marriage as being something that may be necessary sometimes, but I definitely wouldn’t call it a blessing.

Its ok if we disagree on the semantics but anything which increases the love of spouses I feel is a blessing.

And also, as for this:

“the love of man and woman loses nothing as a result of temporary abstention from erotic experiences, but on the contrary gains: the personal union takes deeper root, grounded as it is above all in affirmation of the value of the person and not just in sexual attachment.”

…A lot of good Catholic couples date for years before they get married, and abstain completely during that time. This “deeper root” and “affirmation of the value of the person and not just in sexual attachment” …is something that should already be established, before you even marry the person.

I agree with you completely, and it must continue in marriage.

 

[Debora123]

You may not see each other as sex objects but something is definitely lost from the marriage. I can only reiterate "When the idea that ‘I may become a father’/‘I may become a mother’ is totally rejected in the mind and will of husband and wife nothing is left of the marital relationship, objectively speaking, except mere sexual enjoyment. One person becomes an object of use for another person, which is incompatibile with the personalistic norm." Catholic teaching tries to impart into man what I can only describe as the ultimate sensitivity. To raise man to the level the creator has in mind for us.

Its ok if we disagree on the semantics but anything which increases the love of spouses I feel is a blessing.

I just don’t see the “marital embrace” as being something that should ever take away a spouse’s wholeness or respect for the other. And if it does, then there are some deeper issues to work on. A person should never see their spouse as a sex object, no matter how often they give themselves to each other through love making.

I agree with you completely, and it must continue in marriage.

Yes, respect and seeing your spouse as a whole person should of course continue into marriage. But that should be something that happens anyway. A couple shouldn’t need to stop having sex in order to respect each other and see each other as people instead of objects. Sex itself should be a symbol of that respect and self giving love, IMHO.

 

[Debora123]

I’m sorry, but this notion is just making is sound like marital relations are, to at least some extent, “dirty” in a way. At least that seems to be what is being conveyed when someone says a married couple needs to stop having sex for a time so that they can continue to respect each other as people.

It’s just like… huuuuuhhhh???

 

[maryjk]

Perhaps abstaining in a marriage is something that needs to be done for whatever reason, for a greater good of some sort. But to say that it’s a “blessing??”

It’s definitely not a blessing. It’s a difficult thing that has the potential to create problems, though it may be something that needs to be done.

Being able to make love to your spouse and give yourself to them, now THAT is the blessing.

I have NEVER seen abstaining during our marriage as a good thing. It is a necessary evil but never a blessing.

 

[Debora123]

I have NEVER seen abstaining during our marriage as a good thing. It is a necessary evil but never a blessing.

Agreed 100%. My point exactly. Saying that abstinence in marriage is a “blessing” because it helps a couple see each other as whole people is like saying marital relations make you see each other as sex objects… it just makes sex seem dirty in some way. But it isn’t. It is a complete self gift and a very spiritual thing.

 

[Cerne]

I just don’t see the “marital embrace” as being something that should ever take away a spouse’s wholeness or respect for the other. And if it does, then there are some deeper issues to work on. A person should never see their spouse as a sex object, no matter how often they give themselves to each other through love making.

Yes, respect and seeing your spouse as a whole person should of course continue into marriage. But that should be something that happens anyway. A couple shouldn’t need to stop having sex in order to respect each other and see each other as people instead of objects. Sex itself should be a symbol of that respect and self giving love, IMHO.

Sounds like your coming round to the catholic way of thinking.

A couple do not need to stop having sex in order to respect each other. It is the opposite, it is important that they DO HAVE SEX and do so under condtions which are appropriate to human morality.

As you say above sex should be a symbol of respect and self giving love but if you are using contraception then you are not giving COMPLETELY. You are doing the opposite, you are holding something of the self back in both the mind and the will. This is what the JPII quote I mentioned earlier alluded to.

 

[mtbender]

I don’t think anyone is saying that you have to abstain to respect each other –

For me the point is that abstinence allows us to respect and love each other in so many other ways while still respecting the sexual union. Just like anything – when we start to see it as a necessity or we overindulge – there comes a possibility to lose sight of the true meaning. Abstinence allows couples to keep that perspective while exploring other ways to connect and be intimate.

Abstinence can be a blessing if you enter into it for the right reasons and with the right mindset…

 

[Debora123]

Sounds like your coming round to the catholic way of thinking.

A couple do not need to stop having sex in order to respect each other. It is the opposite, it is important that they DO HAVE SEX and do so under condtions which are appropriate to human morality.

As you say above sex should be a symbol of respect and self giving love but if you are using contraception then you are not giving COMPLETELY. You are doing the opposite, you are holding something of the self back in both the mind and the will. This is what the JPII quote I mentioned earlier alluded to.

Not to get into a contraception debate here and not to get personal about my sex life of which I haven’t even mentioned in a while, but I’ll just say I don’t agree here on a personal level with the above bolded statement.

Regardless, this thread is not about contraception, and regardless of what my personal views are on the issue, this is a Catholic site. My responses here to Catholic posters are going to be given from the Church teaching point of view.

 

[Debora123]

For me the point is that abstinence allows us to respect and love each other in so many other ways while still respecting the sexual union. Just like anything – when we start to see it as a necessity or we overindulge – there comes a possibility to lose sight of the true meaning. Abstinence allows couples to keep that perspective while exploring other ways to connect and be intimate.

See, and that’s what I’m saying… I don’t think a couple should need to not make love to each other in order to respect and love each other in other ways.

I think marital relations should only ENHANCE the love, rather than putting in the possibility to hinder it.

 

[mtbender]

See, and that’s what I’m saying… I don’t think a couple should need to not make love to each other in order to respect and love each other in other ways.

I think marital relations should only ENHANCE the love, rather than putting in the possibility to hinder it.

I would agree that they can…

But I would also say that periodic abstinence is not a detriment to that in any way if approached properly and can certainly be a blessing.

 

[Cerne]

Not to get into a contraception debate here and not to get personal about my sex life of which I haven’t even mentioned in a while, but I’ll just say I don’t agree here on a personal level with the above bolded statement.

Regardless, this thread is not about contraception, and regardless of what my personal views are on the issue, this is a Catholic site. My responses here to Catholic posters are going to be given from the Church teaching point of view.

The church teaching is the above bolded statement. I even included a quotation directly from Pope John Paul II to illustrate this.

I’m afraid to say that the church teaches that abstinence is a blessing both for married and non married, that it is a blessing for priests, that it is a blessing for the Pope himself!!

This is in fact the foundation the church is built on.

However the good news is that catholicism has not been called “the sexiest of religions” for nothing. It is important that married couples engage in sexual relations. Indeed a marriage that is not consummated can be annulled. The church is very much pro-sex but under the right conditions. You need to forget the idea that a couple need to stop having sex.

 

[thewanderer]

See, and that’s what I’m saying… I don’t think a couple should need to not make love to each other in order to respect and love each other in other ways.

I think marital relations should only ENHANCE the love, rather than putting in the possibility to hinder it.

Yes, that is the way it should be. But the fact is that that is not the way it always actually is. Because of this, taking a break from relations during can offer a very helpful hiatus, if you will, to really examine the relationship and the way sexuality and other forms of affection currently play into it so that one can work on fixing the problematic aspects that have crept into their relationship. If you have a perfect relationship then of course abstinance is not going to end up being beneficial, but we live in a fallen world, we are not perfect, it can be very beneficial if used correctly.

 

[ValPal]

Maybe you’re to young, but there was an episode in the original Star Trek where Spock was basically overcome by mating hormones and did a lot of bizarre things, including stealing the Enterprise to go to vulcan. Wikipedia explains it thusly:

Kirk orders him to report to Sickbay. Dr. McCoy discovers Spock’s blood chemistry is extremely active and has the presence of unknown hormones. If the condition persists, then Spock will die in eight days. Spock does not wish to discuss what is currently affecting him, but Kirk demands an explanation. Seemingly embarrassed, Spock informs Kirk that his condition is called Pon farr, a syndrome that all Vulcan males painfully endure periodically throughout their adult life.[note 1] During this time, they must mate or die. He cites precedents in nature, such as Earth salmon, which “must return to that one stream where they were born, to spawn…or die trying.”

That is what testosterone does to us.

As it relates to this thread, it’s not what testosterone does to us, but rather what 7 years of abstinence to us.

 

[maryjk]

I don’t think anyone is saying that you have to abstain to respect each other –

For me the point is that abstinence allows us to respect and love each other in so many other ways while still respecting the sexual union. Just like anything – when we start to see it as a necessity or we overindulge – there comes a possibility to lose sight of the true meaning. Abstinence allows couples to keep that perspective while exploring other ways to connect and be intimate.

Abstinence can be a blessing if you enter into it for the right reasons and with the right mindset…

See, and that’s what I’m saying… I don’t think a couple should need to not make love to each other in order to respect and love each other in other ways.

I think marital relations should only ENHANCE the love, rather than putting in the possibility to hinder it.

I agree Debora, respect should come from your partner whether or not you are abstaining.

 

[ValPal]

First, the word “blessing” has to be put into it’s proper context. “Blessing” in this case does not equal ideal, desirable, comfortable, and/or blissful. To me, it simply means that a married couple can have sex in a God-given, moral manner that might avoid having children under certain circumstances.

You may not see each other as sex objects but something is definitely lost from the marriage. I can only reiterate "When the idea that ‘I may become a father’/‘I may become a mother’ is totally rejected in the mind and will of husband and wife nothing is left of the marital relationship, objectively speaking, except mere sexual enjoyment. One person becomes an object of use for another person, which is incompatibile with the personalistic norm." Catholic teaching tries to impart into man what I can only describe as the ultimate sensitivity. To raise man to the level the creator has in mind for us.

Interesting enough, the abstinence under discussion can cause the problem of the above, especially for men. For most people, the more tension that is built up simply means that when actually having sex the focus is on “getting off” and not on bonding with one’s spouse.

As an additional point, the fact that one is having sex while trying to avoid children adds a stress element, and is certainly not ideal nor a blessing.

 

[Cerne]

Interesting enough, the abstinence under discussion can cause the problem of the above, especially for men. For most people, the more tension that is built up simply means that when actually having sex the focus is on “getting off” and not on bonding with one’s spouse.

This would bring us on to another issue which is that of self control. The above problem you mention will not arise if man has gained self mastery. A man must be incontrol of his body and not the other way round. This is very important in the ability to feel love.

JPII wrote-

"The dignity of the person demands control of concupiscence. if the person does not excercise such control it jeopardizes its natural perfectibility, allows an inferior and dependant part of itself to enjoy freedom of action, and indeed subjects itself to this lesser self."

"Control of concupiscence has as its objective not only the perfection of the person who attempts to achieve it, but also the realization of love in the world of persons, and especially in relations between persons of different sex."

 

[ValPal]

This would bring us on to another issue which is that of self control. The above problem you mention will not arise if man has gained self mastery. A man must be incontrol of his body and not the other way round. This is very important in the ability to feel love.

Not true. Speaking for myself, I have plenty of self control in this regard (and a whole lot of things due to my martial arts training). There have been plenty of times in my marriage where I’ve had sex once every few weeks. It certainly makes it easier when I need to abstain, but fail to see where it is necessary to feel love. It’s simply self control, and you don’t need to be married or feel love to do it.

IMHO, true love is not felt while having sex at the same time trying to avoid children.

True love is felt when two sacramentally married people make love, utterly uninhibited, expecting to have children. When making love in this case, the physical and spiritual events that take place when you actually realize that you and your spouse are one and that life can be created as a result cannot be compared with anything else.

 

[thewanderer]

Not true. Speaking for myself, I have plenty of self control in this regard (and a whole lot of things due to my martial arts training). There have been plenty of times in my marriage where I’ve had sex once every few weeks. It certainly makes it easier when I need to abstain, but fail to see where it is necessary to feel love. It’s simply self control, and you don’t need to be married or feel love to do it.

IMHO, true love is not felt while having sex at the same time trying to avoid children.

True love is felt when two sacramentally married people make love, utterly uninhibited, expecting to have children. When making love in this case, the physical and spiritual events that take place when you actually realize that you and your spouse are one and that life can be created as a result cannot be compared with anything else.

Just curious, but are you of the opinion that a post-menopausal couple cannot truly express love through their relations?

 

[tafan]

At the risk of being flamed as being anti-NFP, I think the OP should consider the following: While NFP is certainly morally licit for serious reasons (and I am not questioning the OP reasons at all), it should be remembered that it is not natural, despite the name. Regular abstinence from sex between a husband and wife is not the natural state of a marriage, and anything that is not natural is naturally difficult (pardon the sophomoric play on words).

But it is a burden that you have to figure out, if the reason is serious to abstain; as contraception will certainly (have no doubt about it) place your souls in extreme jeopardy. Do not blame the church for this burden. At times, being a Christian is challenging, especially in the modern world. The Church has many resources (infinite resources actually) to help.

 

[maryjk]

Not true. Speaking for myself, I have plenty of self control in this regard (and a whole lot of things due to my martial arts training). There have been plenty of times in my marriage where I’ve had sex once every few weeks. It certainly makes it easier when I need to abstain, but fail to see where it is necessary to feel love. It’s simply self control, and you don’t need to be married or feel love to do it.

**IMHO, true love is not felt while having sex at the same time trying to avoid children. **

True love is felt when two sacramentally married people make love, utterly uninhibited, expecting to have children. When making love in this case, the physical and spiritual events that take place when you actually realize that you and your spouse are one and that life can be created as a result cannot be compared with anything else.

Just curious, but are you of the opinion that a post-menopausal couple cannot truly express love through their relations?

Or that those that can’t or shouldn’t have children are not feeling true love?

(Humble opinion to be sure.)