No girls as altar servers in Extraordinary Mass: Vatican

[curlycool89]

I’m a bit confused again (although I thank everyone for explaining the difference between OF and EF). If female altar servers are truly not supposed to be happening at all then why has this not been addressed by the Bishops?

Female alter servers are allowed at the discretion of the bishop (and pastor) for the OF only. They are not allowed to serve at the EF.

And that’s basically all that needs to be said in terms of the legality. Anything going beyond those 2 sentences is personal opinion and has no legal meaning.

 

[nickybr38]

Female alter servers are allowed at the discretion of the bishop (and pastor) for the OF only. They are not allowed to serve at the EF.

And that’s basically all that needs to be said in terms of the legality. Anything going beyond those 2 sentences is personal opinion and has no legal meaning.

May I ask why? What is the reasoning behind this?

 

[Phemie]

May I ask why? What is the reasoning behind this?

Canon law changed in 1983. The way the law is written now was clarified in the 1990s to mean that females could serve at the altar, but that it remained at the discretion of the Bishop and the celebrant and that, even if the Bishop didn’t ban their use in his diocese, a priest celebrating Mass could not be forced to use them.

But the rubrics of the 1962 Missal (the Extraordinary Form) do not allow women altar servers and a later change in the law cannot be imposed if it violate the rubrics.

 

[nickybr38]

Canon law changed in 1983. The way the law is written now was clarified in the 1990s to mean that females could serve at the altar, but that it remained at the discretion of the Bishop and the celebrant and that, even if the Bishop didn’t ban their use in his diocese, a priest celebrating Mass could not be forced to use them.

But the rubrics of the 1962 Missal (the Extraordinary Form) do not allow women altar servers and a later change in the law cannot be imposed if it violate the rubrics.

That’s not what I meant. Sorry. Let me rephrase.

Why should women be altar servers?
Why shouldn’t women be altar servers?
In plain English since I get lost easily.

 

[curlycool89]

That’s not what I meant. Sorry. Let me rephrase.

Why should women be altar servers?
Why shouldn’t women be altar servers?
In plain English since I get lost easily.

To be perfectly honest, I don’t really care. We can debate and discuss round and round, but Rome has spoken as the saying goes.
It’s the same type of argument as CITH vs COTT. You can argue whatever you want, but the Vatican allows both.

It’s like the whole argument around GHGs. I work in the environment department at a power company, and people are at the point where they don’t really care who wins the argument, just tell us what regulations were going to be subject to and stop jerking us around. For our purposes, the Regulator decides to do whatever and we follow it (to a certain point of course, we’d probably have serious reservations about something that had a major effect on our ability to operate).

Same idea here. Rome says girl alter servers are ok, so we as Catholics follow. If you don’t want to use them, then don’t, but stop feeling like you’re superior when the other people aren’t doing anything wrong.

My :twocents:

 

[nickybr38]

To be perfectly honest, I don’t really care. We can debate and discuss round and round, but Rome has spoken as the saying goes.
It’s the same type of argument as CITH vs COTT. You can argue whatever you want, but the Vatican allows both.

It’s like the whole argument around GHGs. I work in the environment department at a power company, and people are at the point where they don’t really care who wins the argument, just tell us what regulations were going to be subject to and stop jerking us around. For our purposes, the Regulator decides to do whatever and we follow it (to a certain point of course, we’d probably have serious reservations about something that had a major effect on our ability to operate).

Same idea here. Rome says girl alter servers are ok, so we as Catholics follow. If you don’t want to use them, then don’t, but stop feeling like you’re superior when the other people aren’t doing anything wrong.

My :twocents:

I’m not trying to debate. I’m trying to understand! I have no feelings either way, I’m just trying to understand why they would say no for the EF (absolute no) and okay for the OF. To understand that I think it’s important to know the reasoning behind the no AND the yes.

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to debate or cause some kind of discord here but I’m really just trying to understand.

I wasn’t aware wanting to understand was bad… after all how do I explain it to my non-Catholic brothers and sisters if I don’t UNDERSTAND. The answer; The Church says so… doesn’t work. It’s not enough.

 

[Phemie]

I’m not trying to debate. I’m trying to understand! I have no feelings either way, I’m just trying to understand why they would say no for the EF (absolute no) and okay for the OF. To understand that I think it’s important to know the reasoning behind the no AND the yes.

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to debate or cause some kind of discord here but I’m really just trying to understand.

I wasn’t aware wanting to understand was bad… after all how do I explain it to my non-Catholic brothers and sisters if I don’t UNDERSTAND. The answer; The Church says so… doesn’t work. It’s not enough.

I’ve heard various reasons but the most common one is that altar servers are stand-ins for Acolytes who can only be adult males. Acolyte is a step on the way to the priesthood. Prior to Vatican II it was a minor order, rather than an instituted ministry like it is today. While it was still a minor order, a clerical role, no woman could act as a substitute. Today, it’s a ministerial role, not a clerical role so it can be filled by a woman.

 

[nickybr38]

I’ve heard various reasons but the most common one is that altar servers are stand-ins for Acolytes who can only be adult males. Acolyte is a step on the way to the priesthood. Prior to Vatican II it was a minor order, rather than an instituted ministry like it is today. While it was still a minor order, a clerical role, no woman could act as a substitute. Today, it’s a ministerial role, not a clerical role so it can be filled by a woman.

Simple and to the point. Thank you.

Strange that it switched from clerical to ministerial but I suppose the Church is evolving all the time as she comes to understand more and more.

 

[Corki]

I’ve heard various reasons but the most common one is that altar servers are stand-ins for Acolytes who can only be adult males. Acolyte is a step on the way to the priesthood. Prior to Vatican II it was a minor order, rather than an instituted ministry like it is today. While it was still a minor order, a clerical role, no woman could act as a substitute. Today, it’s a ministerial role, not a clerical role so it can be filled by a woman.

Acolytes, even though an instituted ministry, is still open to men only.

 

[Phemie]

Acolytes, even though an instituted ministry, is still open to men only.

Yes, an instituted acolyte can only be a male but he’s still a minister, not a cleric so his ROLE can be performed by a female even if she can never be an instituted minister.

 

[Myqyl]

I’m not trying to debate. I’m trying to understand! I have no feelings either way, I’m just trying to understand why they would say no for the EF (absolute no) and okay for the OF. To understand that I think it’s important to know the reasoning behind the no AND the yes.

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to debate or cause some kind of discord here but I’m really just trying to understand.

I wasn’t aware wanting to understand was bad… after all how do I explain it to my non-Catholic brothers and sisters if I don’t UNDERSTAND. The answer; The Church says so… doesn’t work. It’s not enough.

Why can female altar servers be in the OF = Why not? They are members of the community and can serve just like anyone else. Scripture shows us that the role of females in the early Church was FAR more progressive than the rest of society 2000 years ago.

Why can’t female altar servers be in the EF = Because that form is unchanged since well before the OF came about. It is beautiful and rich in history. Historically women and men served differently in all aspects of society, including the Mass. Only men could be actors for hundreds of years and at RenFaires this tradition is sometimes still observed. Now I am NOT comparing the EF with a RenFaire play by ANY stretch of the imagination, But the EF retains all the customs and traditions of the Mass of 2, 3, 400 years past, including male only altar servers.

That help?

God bless

 

[Corki]

Yes, an instituted acolyte can only be a male but he’s still a minister, not a cleric so his ROLE can be performed by a female even if she can never be an instituted minister.

Not trying to be difficult here … but part of his role can be performed by a female. The big exception is that acolytes can purify the vessels after Communion but EMHCs and altar servers cannot (male or female).

The distinction works better when speaking of Lectors. Only males can be lectors. Females can perform the role as readers. As far as I know, there is no difference in their duties at Mass.

 

[Phemie]

Not trying to be difficult here … but part of his role can be performed by a female. The big exception is that acolytes can purify the vessels after Communion but EMHCs and altar servers cannot (male or female).

The distinction works better when speaking of Lectors. Only males can be lectors. Females can perform the role as readers. As far as I know, there is no difference in their duties at Mass.

True that, but neither can a male altar server purify the vessels, only a instituted acolyte may do that.

Only males can be Instituted Lectors, men & women can be lectors by temporary deputation (the term Rome uses in RS 44, not reader).

It’s true that at Mass an Instituted Lector and a Lector by temporary deputation have the same role. The difference in the Instituted Lector’s role is in his duties outside of Mass as defined by Canon Law.

 

[Redratfish]

From a 16 year old’s standpoint:

Women were not allowed to serve in the Old Form, so why would that have changed when the current Ordinary Form was created? If the Old Form community wants to stay as it was before, then let them. I prefer the Ordinary Form, I have no problem with them saying they want it as it was.

That said: To the arguments that Boy are doing this as training for the priesthood, I must disagree. I altar serve, and love doing it, and indeed am discerning a call to the priesthood. However, I am far from the normal 16 year old in terms of faith. Most guys altar serve for 2 reasons.

1. There parents make them because they need boys
2. There are girls

Altar serving is important. It gives an average kid the ability to help closely celebrate the Mass. It causes religious interest. I’ve heard Mass attendance is the lowest it has ever been. At a point like this, should we really be restricting who and who can’t serve? I know people will say that “It is a tradition”, and you are right, as I stated above. Then again, the Apostles did not have music, wear vestments, or speak in Latin. Should we go that far back to maintain an authentic Catholic view? Yes, I am exagerating, but to prove a point.

Secondly, people saying that kids are showing up for the TLM. I have been to 4 TLM masses recently, just to see what they are like. I have seen very few kids. Very few. Those there appear to me (I am also a kid) that they are not interested. Rather, they are there because their parents brought them along.

Instead of restricting girl altar servers, in a form of the Mass that is not well attended, why not focus on issues that are truly hurting the Church. Because lets be honest. What harm is girls helping on the altar. They are 12-16. Not feminists bent on the destruction of the Church.

Pax vobiscum

 

[Myqyl]

From a 16 year old’s standpoint:

Women were not allowed to serve in the Old Form, so why would that have changed when the current Ordinary Form was created? If the Old Form community wants to stay as it was before, then let them. I prefer the Ordinary Form, I have no problem with them saying they want it as it was.

That said: To the arguments that Boy are doing this as training for the priesthood, I must disagree. I altar serve, and love doing it, and indeed am discerning a call to the priesthood. However, I am far from the normal 16 year old in terms of faith. Most guys altar serve for 2 reasons.

1. There parents make them because they need boys
2. There are girls

Altar serving is important. It gives an average kid the ability to help closely celebrate the Mass. It causes religious interest. I’ve heard Mass attendance is the lowest it has ever been. At a point like this, should we really be restricting who and who can’t serve? I know people will say that “It is a tradition”, and you are right, as I stated above. Then again, the Apostles did not have music, wear vestments, or speak in Latin. Should we go that far back to maintain an authentic Catholic view? Yes, I am exagerating, but to prove a point.

Secondly, people saying that kids are showing up for the TLM. I have been to 4 TLM masses recently, just to see what they are like. I have seen very few kids. Very few. Those there appear to me (I am also a kid) that they are not interested. Rather, they are there because their parents brought them along.

Instead of restricting girl altar servers, in a form of the Mass that is not well attended, why not focus on issues that are truly hurting the Church. Because lets be honest. What harm is girls helping on the altar. They are 12-16. Not feminists bent on the destruction of the Church.

Pax vobiscum

Thank you for serving!

 

[MissRose73]

I support the choice to either attend the EF or the OF Mass. Each has its great points. Both are valid.

I was born after the changes of Vatican II so I never knew what the EF was like unless I asked my parents about it as they attended in the EF (Latin Mass) then the OF (what I was raised on, and still attend) when it was put into place a few years before I was born.

 

[Holly3278]

I am glad that the Vatican has said this. I personally don’t think girls should be allowed to be altar servers at all. I mean, to me, altar serving is meant for boys because it is supposed to help encourage boys to grow up to be priests.

 

[baylee]

What I see here is more confusion and mixed messages in the Church.

 

[dans0622]

What I see here is more confusion and mixed messages in the Church.

Hi baylee,

You don’t have to look at it from that angle. What I see is more diversity which reflects the legitimately diverse sensibilities of the people of God. As St. Augustine is supposed to have said (but probably did not): “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

Dan

 

[CathModerate]

I am glad that the Vatican has said this. I personally don’t think girls should be allowed to be altar servers at all. I mean, to me, altar serving is meant for boys because it is supposed to help encourage boys to grow up to be priests.

So then what is used to help girls grow up to be nuns?