No Immaculate Conception, No Immutable God

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The Pope’s words condemn themselves as worshiping Mary and granting her titles and abilities reserved only for Christ, God, or the Holy Spirit. You may choose to not see it but it’s there black and white.

Mary dispenses nothing. She certainly isn’t my Mediatrix or anyone else’s. We come to Christ through the Holy Spirit, another God Head. Catholicism has turned Mary into a 4th God Head which again, is blasphemy of the highest order.

You can get mad at me I guess but I’m not the one saying these blasphemies. Your Pope’s are.
 
You continue to misrepresent what I say time and time again.Why would I not believe the elect would reign with Christ? I do not believe babies have sin as you must and I already showed you where it’s backed up in scripture.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

To sin is an act, it’s something performed and can be performed by the heart. Babies have no concept of sin and therefore are innocent.
 
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Christ himself said in Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Christ affirms again in Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Does Jesus want us to convert and become like lawless, sinful children, who are destined for hell?

Children obviously represent innocence in the scripture. That’s why we have to become like them innocent, teachable, and trusting to enter the kingdom of heaven. Why else would Jesus tell us to become like children?
 
ReadTheBible said:
These are examples of blasphemy in the highest forms. You and other Catholics might not “worship” Mary but Catholicism itself has indeed placed Mary in the role of a deity. If you disagree you’ll need to argue the matter with the Popes, not me.
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Not true it is you saying that they have placed her as a deity. My challenge to you was to provide a document that says Mary is God which you could not do. What you have done is taken quotes and put your own thoughts on them. Those quotes are not blasphemous but your statement against Christ Church is.
 
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MarysLurker said:
What happens if She says no?
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Can’t you play the what if scenario with everything? It doesn’t give you any conclusions.

We know there were times man tried to say no to God. Moses came up with 5 excuses why he shouldn’t be the one to lead the Jews out of bondage. Jonah tried saying no to God. God’s will prevailed and always will.
 
hope said:
Not true it is you saying that they have placed her as a deity. My challenge to you was to provide a document that says Mary is God which you could not do.
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I don’t think I can be of any more clarity. The Pope is the leader and has the utmost authority in Catholicism. Multiple Popes have stated Salvation itself is obtained through Mary. This is indeed blasphemy as defined by scripture.

Here is our greatest difference. I can show you things which are contrary to many of the ideas surrounding Mary that Catholicism espouses to. Catholic theologians readily admit many of their own ideas concerning Mary are nowhere to be found in scripture. The reality of the matter is this: the Catholic clergy believes it needs no authority save that of its own pontificating voice. It creates its own dogma, writes its own rules, creates and modifies its own traditions and then places them on equal footing with scripture.

This is the crux of it. I will always maintain there is such a thing as tradition, even good tradition. We are told in scripture to test all things according to God’s word which is scripture. If tradition is in violation with scripture we are to throw it out even if the so called authority of a church says otherwise.

I do not need to provide a Catholic catechism document stating Mary is God to see what the Popes throughout history have claimed for Mary. They themselves are responsible for their teachings. I highly doubt you would claim the Popes that made all those statements don’t truly believe them because there isn’t an official dogmatic document stating it.
 
ReadTheBible said:
Here is our greatest difference. I can show you things which are contrary to many of the ideas surrounding Mary that Catholicism espouses to. Catholic theologians readily admit many of their own ideas concerning Mary are nowhere to be found in scripture. The reality of the matter is this: the Catholic clergy believes it needs no authority save that of its own pontificating voice. It creates its own dogma, writes its own rules, creates and modifies its own traditions and then places them on equal footing with scripture.
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You can say this about the whole of scripture, ok.
The whole of the NT did not exist at one time. Let that sink in as you deny the full authority of the CC. The community of believers that Christ breathed on took the oral tradition of his life, preserved it, and wrote it down over the course of decades.

What did you have before those decades? Authority in Tradition, and obedience to it.

If you are not obedient to the Church, you do not have the fullness of Christ’s body, and you do not have the fullness of scripture, because scripture did not fall from the sky Joseph Smith style. It lived and lives in the one Community Christ is the head of.

Christ is a person, not a book.
 
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goout said:
The whole of the NT did not exist at one time. Let that sink in as you deny the full authority of the CC.
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I’ve said this many times before. God said his Word would last forever. Who do you give glory to that we have scripture, to God, or to the men that canonized scripture? It sounds like you are elevating the men that did so above the fact God said it would be done and used men to do so.
 
ReadTheBible said:
The Pope is the leader and has the utmost authority in Catholicism.
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Actually not quite.

Case in point. Pope Francis recently made what looks like a pretty authoritative statement on the death penalty. But it contradicts previous teaching, and Scripture, insofar as it is interpreted as making the DP intrinsically immoral. Therefore it can’t be authoritative, but merely a prudential judgment that the DP is inadmissible in present society which an informed Catholic must consider but may disregard after reflection.

However, none of the teachings on Mary contradict Scripture. Your denial of the reality of the Body of Christ and the intercessory power of prayer certainly do though.
 
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If you believe salvation comes through Mary as the Popes stated you do not believe in the doctrine of Christ. Christ said in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

Salvation comes through Christ, not Mary as Popes have claimed.
 
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goout said:
If you are not obedient to the Church, you do not have the fullness of Christ’s body
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I think you’re being factitious at this point. The Holy Spirit is what leads us to truth and guides us. Christ is the reason behind why we have the opportunity of God’s grace.
 
Speaking of the Holy Spirit…

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That’s a message for you @ReadTheBible.

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Icon written by Richard Cannuli
 
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ReadTheBible said:
These are examples of blasphemy in the highest forms. You and other Catholics might not “worship” Mary but Catholicism itself has indeed placed Mary in the role of a deity. If you disagree you’ll need to argue the matter with the Popes, not me.
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None of that proves that’s she is a “goddess.”
 
hope said:
Scripture is very clear that they were married. Divorce would only be necessary if there was a marriage.
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Good point hope, but divorce also occurred during betrothal period, after all, a contract was agreed upon, complete with a type of dowry exchange etc.

Another words, you need a divorce to break a betrothal.
 
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Without Mary, there would have been no Church; since she said “yes”, Jesus was able to found the Catholic Church.
 
God is always given a primacy. If our devotions to Mary seem like much, our devotion to Jesus is much greater.
 
mcq72 said:
Correct. But I suppose it is how she is treated thatvis in question, bpth by practice and by decree
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No, it is how in your opinion She has been treated both by practice and by decree. As I said many posts ago, there is definitely a double standard between how you treat your grandmom in Heaven and Christ’s Mom in Heaven. State that grandmom is watching over you and you’re a good grandchild. State that Jesus’s Mom is watching over you and you’re an idolatrous goddess-worshipper.
 
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