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mcq72
Guest
Betrothal is, take her to wed/ home is
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MarysLurker
Guest
Which says zero against Her perpetual virginity.Betrothal is, take her to wed/ home is
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
It doesn’t matter. She was either planning to get married or not. Neither is able to explain her objection at the Gabriel’s message.Betrothal is, take her to wed/ home is
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mcq72
Guest
Correct…never said otherwise…we have been discussing Jewish form of "betrothal/ marriage ".The Bible doesn’t say Mary sinned or consummated her marriage with Joseph so this should be easy enough.
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hope
Guest
Betrothal is not ink is dry nor does it mean a dowry was exchanged and nothing is mentioned about consummation other than Mary denying it would ever happen.
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MarysLurker
Guest
Exactly. So there is no evidence in the Bible that Mary had other children. Done.Betrothal is not ink is dry nor does it mean a dowry was exchanged and nothing is mentioned about consummation other than Mary denying it would ever happen.
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mcq72
Guest
Actually people do think it helps explain her response, either a vow of chastity, or simple waiting period of betrothal.It doesn’t matter. She was either planning to get married or not. Neither is able to explain her objection at the Gabriel’s message.
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mcq72
Guest
So no contract or dowry exchange? What does betrothed mean to you? Is that like our “engaged”?. When can a betrothal be consumated in a Jewish setting of that time ?Betrothal is not ink is dry nor does it mean a dowry was exchanged
Never said anything about Mary/ Joseph consumating marriage.
This is only past / present tense understanding. Just as " until" may be irregardless of future , So is her assertion to being virgin. Has zero indication of future.Mary denying it would ever happen( consumation, knowing a man)
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ReadTheBible
Guest
Show me in scripture, one time any apostle declared salvation is given through Mary, or that she is a mediatrix, or she ascended to Heaven, or she was a perpetual virgin, or she never sinned.You do not understand what is meant by through Mary. This is obvious because of this statement
1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.We are told in scripture to test all things according to God’s word which is scripture.
Where?
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
How are we to to prove all things? Acts is clear that the people in Berea were more noble than Thessalonica. Why? They searched scripture diligently to see if what they were being told was true.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The Holy are alive. When Moses gave the Jews the written law to be placed next to the Ark he said the every word from God was life itself. Deuteronomy 8: And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live
When Christ was tempted by Satan he reiterated this very thing - Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Show me scripture where traditions are spoken of with such vigor. There are literally too many passages in scripture glorifying God’s word (scripture) to list here.
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ReadTheBible
Guest
Jesus gives a dire warning about traditions of man in Mark7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Christ is the Word and everything in this world shall pass away but Christ’s Word shall be forever.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Christ praying to God the Father
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Christ is the Word and everything in this world shall pass away but Christ’s Word shall be forever.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Christ praying to God the Father
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
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MarysLurker
Guest
What is Scripture?Show me in scripture
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
None of them say you have to test everything with Scripture.There are literally too many passages in scripture glorifying God’s word (scripture) to list here.
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MarysLurker
Guest
And none of them say what Scripture is. The Bereans, like everyone else at the time, had only the Old Testament, including the deuterocanonical books that @ReadTheBible and company reject; the Bereans were Greeks and THIS is what their Bible looked like.None of them say you have to test everything with Scripture.
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hope
Guest
I have posted twice what betrothed means. Hopefully you get it this time The Jewish marriage process occurred in two separate parts, the first of which was betrothal. This was an exchange of consent made between a man and a woman before witnesses. At this point they were married. There was no dowry or signing of a physical contract. Betrothal was binding, and it could only be ended by death or divorce. Why Joseph needed to divorce her. After the betrothal, there was a period of several months in which the woman remained with her family. After that period was up, the groom would come and take her to his house.(Parable of the foolish and wise handmaids) The Gospels when they refer to Mary as being betrothed to Joseph, they are talking about the period of time after the exchange of consent (which made them married) but before they lived together as a married couple.
I posted previously that the Greek shows that when she said I know not man that it was a permanent condition.
I posted previously that the Greek shows that when she said I know not man that it was a permanent condition.
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hope
Guest
Mary was Jesus’ Mother. He came through her. He just didn’t just show up. Only Jesus ascended to Heaven. Mary was assumed please start being more respectful I would hate to see you suspended. You need to show me where Jesus said that our faith is found in only in writing. Show me where He said that we should only believe what is in Scripture. Show me where He said I didn’t mean that Peter should have the keys to heaven.Show me in scripture, one time any apostle declared salvation is given through Mary, or that she is a mediatrix, or she ascended to Heaven, or she was a perpetual virgin, or she never sinned.
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hope
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"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
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MarysLurker
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Matthew 17:15Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
And he is the false prophet since we were here first. Unless he wants to finally explain the gap?
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mcq72
Guest
Ok, where does the wedding feast take place? Are you saying as soon as they are married /betrothed they could become one conjugally if a couple desired, and is that before wedding?..confused only on these pointsI have posted twice what betrothed means.
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MarysLurker
Guest
Again… none of this is in the Bible.Ok, where does the wedding feast take place? Are you saying as soon as they are married /betrothed they could become one conjugally if a couple desired, and is that before wedding?..confused only on these points
Nor relevant to the topic, apart from the double standard that is being used to call the IC unbiblical.
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hope
Guest
I am not an expert on this but it is my understanding that the marriage took place at the betrothal. They were married but lived apart. About six months to a year later the husband would take his wife to his house. The normal turn of events is they would then consummate their marriage. This did not happen with Mary. Joseph was her protector. It wasn’t like she could get a job and live single. She would need to be in a household which Joseph provided. She obviously did not intend not to remain a virgin. Joseph would know this and according to their law would have approved.
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