No Kneelers

[JReducation]

I was JUST about to post this too.

Can someone refresh my memory. There is one Rite, maybe more, where the congregation does not sit either. They stand for the entire two hours of mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bpbasilphx]

You really find it too austere? I was there for a retreat and I love that church. Being a Franciscan, it’s right up my alley. You should see our chapel. It’s very much like that, but on a much smaller scale.

---

**What can I say? I’m Eastern. I love a plethora of icons!

But the Church is bigger than my personal tastes, and accomodates all.**

 

[centurionguard]

Why did a lack of kneelers keep you from kneeling?

Why did standing people keep the sanctus bells from being rung?

What does a “real” Catholic church look like?

What does a “real” Catholic church look like?

Given the ultra-modern architecture of a lot of Catholic Churches today many take on appearance of a Protestant Church or roughed in music stage which is fairly common with modernized architecture after Vatican II especially after the 1970’s.

 

[JReducation]

Given the ultra-modern architecture of a lot of Catholic Churches today many take on appearance of a Protestant Church or roughed in music stage which is fairly common with modernized architecture after Vatican II especially after the 1970’s.

There are some very beautiful Protestant churches too. If I’m not mistaken, I believe it was Boston where I saw some very simple, but peaceful colonial style Protestant churches. They are very similar to monastic chapels and churches, especially the Carthusian and the Capuchin style, all white, not stain glass, no statues, nothing fancy in the sanctuaries, no kneelers and not too many candles.

We were talking about the Charterhouse church in vermont. It’s a rectangular room made of cement blocks with white walls, not stained glass and a very small sanctuary. It is the most peaceful place on earth. Unfortunately, unless you’re a religious they do not allow you into the church for mass or prayers.

I wonder if that’s why so many Catholics think “Protestant” when they see a very plain church. I mean this as a legitimate question. Most enclosed communities of men do not allow the laity to see or participate in their masses or prayers. They have a separate chapel for guests. Therefore, most Catholics would not know that this style of church building was borrowed by the Protestants from monastic communities. This would make sense, because Luther was an Augustinian.

I had never thought of this before. :newidea:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

You really find it too austere? I was there for a retreat and I love that church. Being a Franciscan, it’s right up my alley. You should see our chapel. It’s very much like that, but on a much smaller scale.

---

**What can I say? I’m Eastern. I love a plethora of icons!

But the Church is bigger than my personal tastes, and accomodates all.**

You’re the guys that made my Jewish mother cry. I took my Jewish mother to a Divine Liturgy at a Melchite parish in Pgh. I suddenly noticed that she was crying. I thought to myself that she had converted and I was thrilled.

When we got outside I asked her how she had felt during the liturgy. She responded, “I couldn’t stop crying.”

“Great” I thought to myself. She’s coming over to the Catholic faith.

Then she continued, “Why do these Catholics use so much incense? I couldn’t enjoy the service, because my allergies acted up.”

Oh well, it was a good plan, so I thought.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PureHeart]

Very interesting thread!

My op is I don’t care if people kneel or not.

I am 36 and do not kneel because it causes sharp pain in my knees.

 

[Shin]

Very interesting thread!

My op is I don’t care if people kneel or not.

I am 36 and do not kneel because it causes sharp pain in my knees.

These are the sort of exceptions that allow a person to refrain. However, let me add, that if you want to gain merit before God in Heaven, having pains in the knees is a great reason **to **kneel.

 

[Harpazo]

The lack of kneelers does not keep people from kneeling if they want. There are certainly arguements for people standing during the consecration–as another poster mentioned the Eastern churches stand, and in many very old churches there aren’t any pews let alone kneelers.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

My church (it hasn’t achieved parish status yet; it’s still a mission) was built without pews at all. Also, another reason all should Eastern Christians (I cannot say all do, because there are still some latinized Eastern Catholics that just don’t want to give up their precious kneelers for fear that their Roman brethren will think of them to be less Catholic) is because of one of the canons of the Ecumenical Councils (I cannot recall which), forbade people from kneeling on Sunday out of respect for the resurrection. As Orthodox, we can kneel any other time we want, except Sundays and during the 50 days after Pascha, in respect for Our Lord’s victory over death. I believe that Rome did this, too, but I’m not sure exactly when they started kneeling on Sunday on a regular basis. It was probably sometime in the late Middle Ages or later, but I’m just making a guess.

I cannot speak for other Eastern Catholic sui iuris churches, but those Eastern Catholics that use the DL of St. John Chrysostom and Orthodox know (or should know) that we don’t kneel because we believe we are in the presence of God as soon as the priest starts the liturgy saying: “Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto ages of ages!”

Hope that offers a little perspective to the thread.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[MissMichal]

I go to a Newman Center, and we don’t have kneelers, but none of us seems to have a problem kneeling on the carpet. I thought it was kind of funny that when I started going to weekday Mass at the cathedral, I found the kneelers kind of awkward (I have long legs, and I have to half-sit if no one has pulled the kneeler down behind me).

 

[CMP2]

QUOTE: Shin - “However, let me add, that if you want to gain merit before God in Heaven, having pains in the knees is a great reason to kneel.”

Good post Shin. I love your style!!

The whole point is not what we “want to do” but what we are willing do for the glory of God. Jesus suffered way more for us than we will ever suffer, or be expected to suffer, and if a pain or two is all we can give then so be it. Redemptive suffering, like statues, kneelers, icons etc. is another “Catholic” idea that many “do not get” Catholic or not.

To say that the Catholic Church borrowed the monastic style from the Reformer Churches is not completely true. The Catholic Church is what it is. Kneeling, prostration and incense is not something that we had to borrow from anyone. It is Catholic worship at it’s best.

The Church has always recognized our being a tactile people of faith. Smells, sounds, postures, colors etc. are how we can identify with the seasons etc. Lent - supreme sacrifice and penance. Also Advent. Some don’t realize that Advent is also penitential. I don’t mean in a figurative way. To humble oneself in a renewed way in these seasons is beneficial to the individual as well as the whole of the Body of Christ in His Church. Santa and the Easter Bunny are not a part of any of it.

I am not saying that we are not a joy filled people who have been saved by the Blood of Christ, and redeemed daily through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but this joy is not the self serving “fill me” joy that so many look for. It is joy in the identifying with the life of Christ. Not just the comfortable parts. To be “imitations” of the Lord is not easy, but so worth it.

As a convert I would not trade one moment of suffering for an empty satisfaction in a good sermon or music. To give up the moments of such intense union with Christ would be folly.

We are not a static faith. The Crucifixion etc. did not happen over 2000 years ago. It is there at every Holy Mass and we are on Golgotha with Christ. Sobering isn’t it? To approach Him in His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity with less than perfect contrition and humility would be spiritual suicide. Our desire for this perfection is all He asks for. Kneeling etc. is the least of it.

Am I too serious and a person lacking in appreciation of life and it’s joys? No, I am not. I have a hearty laugh and love to have fun, in the proper place and time. Not during Holy Mass.

+God be with you and may our Lady, our mother, wrap all her children in her mantle today on the celebration of her Immaculate Heart. c.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Can someone refresh my memory. There is one Rite, maybe more, where the congregation does not sit either. They stand for the entire two hours of mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I don’t know who stands for the entire two hours of Mass. To me, “Mass” means Latin Rite. (Which I am.)

I am dating a Byzantine Catholic and we switch off between Mass and Divine Liturgy. I believe the Eastern Rite church we attend here is Byzantine Ruthenian. They have the St. John Chrysostom Divine Liturgy. There is only sitting and standing. No kneeling.

As a Latin Rite girl having only attended Roman Catholic Mass, I feel odd not kneeling during the consecration, but then again, the priest isn’t even facing us, so that feels odd as well. (It actually feels like he’s leading us to be in communion with Christ, but that’s another discussion all together.)

There are no kneelers at this particular parish and I admit that after having received communion I have been moved to simply kneel, even on the tiled floor there. One, admittedly, it is out of “Latin Rite” habit, and two, I’m simply awed. The rest of the congregation, however, simply stays standing. (Some will sit.)

I am thinking, however, of following the (ironic) saying of, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” when at Divine Liturgy and not kneeling. I am the ONLY one kneeling when I attend Divine Liturgy and take communion. (Which is why I am thinking of following the rest of the congregation at Divine Liturgy.) Amusingly enough, I’m also one of 2 who makes the sign of the cross left to right - everyone else is right to left.

IMO, to say that Catholics should kneel during the consecration … well, I think they should specify which rite. Because if you were to tell my boyfriend or his family or any other of the folks at that Byzantine church they should be kneeling, they’d … well, probably laugh.

I think to assume that Catholic means “Roman Catholic” or only “Latin Rite” shows a lack of knowledge on the different rites and churches that fall under “Catholic” and are in communion with the Vicar of Christ.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t know who stands for the entire two hours of Mass. To me, “Mass” means Latin Rite. (Which I am.)

I am dating a Byzantine Catholic and we switch off between Mass and Divine Liturgy. I believe the Eastern Rite church we attend here is Byzantine Ruthenian. They have the St. John Chrysostom Divine Liturgy. There is only sitting and standing. No kneeling.

As a Latin Rite girl having only attended Roman Catholic Mass, I feel odd not kneeling during the consecration, but then again, the priest isn’t even facing us, so that feels odd as well. (It actually feels like he’s leading us to be in communion with Christ, but that’s another discussion all together.)

There are no kneelers at this particular parish and I admit that after having received communion I have been moved to simply kneel, even on the tiled floor there. One, admittedly, it is out of “Latin Rite” habit, and two, I’m simply awed. The rest of the congregation, however, simply stays standing. (Some will sit.)

I am thinking, however, of following the (ironic) saying of, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” when at Divine Liturgy and not kneeling. I am the ONLY one kneeling when I attend Divine Liturgy and take communion. (Which is why I am thinking of following the rest of the congregation at Divine Liturgy.) Amusingly enough, I’m also one of 2 who makes the sign of the cross left to right - everyone else is right to left.

IMO, to say that Catholics should kneel during the consecration … well, I think they should specify which rite. Because if you were to tell my boyfriend or his family or any other of the folks at that Byzantine church they should be kneeling, they’d … well, probably laugh.

I think to assume that Catholic means “Roman Catholic” or only “Latin Rite” shows a lack of knowledge on the different rites and churches that fall under “Catholic” and are in communion with the Vicar of Christ.

I used the term mass out of habit. I meant Divine Liturgy. I think the same thing happens with the word Roman. It’s a habit. We’re not the Roman Catholic Church. We are the Catholic Church.

The name Roman was added unofficially to refer to the Latin Rite Catholics, but you will not find Roman Catholic in the official documents of the Church. You will always find Catholic standing alone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JuanCarlos]

If one is in an Eastern Catholic Church, one shouldn’t kneel. Kneeling has a different connotation to them than to us Latins; in fact, it would be an abuse of their Liturgy to add foreign elements (Latinizations) in. It’s perfectly pleasing to God in its own right.

However, in the Latin Church kneeling is the equivalent of standing in the Eastern traditions- reverence. Not kneeling, genuflecting, etc. is simply impious to a Roman. Especially at the times when our Rite requires the faithful to kneel. I would never dare to stand up, defiant-like, when Our Blessed Lord becomes present on the altar. I kneel in adoration, respect, wonder, and holy fear.

However, when I attend the Divine Liturgy, I stand upright, because in that rite standing is everything kneeling is to us. Even those in walkers and wheelchairs stand up during the Consecration out of respect.

Context is everything. A Roman Catholic Church without kneelers is scandalous!

 

[GodIsGracious]

I used the term mass out of habit. I meant Divine Liturgy. I think the same thing happens with the word Roman. It’s a habit. We’re not the Roman Catholic Church. We are the Catholic Church.

The name Roman was added unofficially to refer to the Latin Rite Catholics, but you will not find Roman Catholic in the official documents of the Church. You will always find Catholic standing alone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

ah ha!

Yes, I can COMPLETELY understand the “out of habit.” Infact, when we were discussion going to Mass or Divine Liturgy, even my boyfriend simply used “Mass” to refer to both!

And by the way, in the interest of honesty, I need to admit here that before I really knew about the different Rites and churches, I always thought “Catholic” meant “Roman Catholic.” Now I know the difference. So, no intent meant to put anyone else down. We all simply need to learn, that’s all. (You’re not included in that “we.” )

Peace!

 

[GodIsGracious]

If one is in an Eastern Catholic Church, one shouldn’t kneel. Kneeling has a different connotation to them than to us Latins; in fact, it would be an abuse of their Liturgy to add foreign elements (Latinizations) in. It’s perfectly pleasing to God in its own right.

However, in the Latin Church kneeling is the equivalent of standing in the Eastern traditions- reverence. Not kneeling, genuflecting, etc. is simply impious to a Roman. Especially at the times when our Rite requires the faithful to kneel. I would never dare to stand up, defiant-like, when Our Blessed Lord becomes present on the altar. I kneel in adoration, respect, wonder, and holy fear.

However, when I attend the Divine Liturgy, I stand upright, because in that rite standing is everything kneeling is to us. Even those in walkers and wheelchairs stand up during the Consecration out of respect.

Context is everything. A Roman Catholic Church without kneelers is scandalous!

Yep! Agreed. And like I said in my last post, “When in Rome…etc.” I don’t think I’ll be kneeling anymore when at Divine Liturgy. It’s just not done there.

 

[JReducation]

One has to be careful not to make oneself a sign of division when visiting the other Catholic Churches. As I mentioned in earlier posts, Franciscans that come from the Capuchin reform do not use kneelers and usually do not kneel. But all of us kneel when we are with the laity. The custom is for a specific place and target population.

This logic has to be applied everywhere. Do as is the custom in the specific place and target population.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JuanCarlos]

One has to be careful not to make oneself a sign of division when visiting the other Catholic Churches. As I mentioned in earlier posts, Franciscans that come from the Capuchin reform do not use kneelers and usually do not kneel. But all of us kneel when we are with the laity. The custom is for a specific place and target population.

This logic has to be applied everywhere. Do as is the custom in the specific place and target population.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Interesting. How old is this non-kneeling tradition?

And I can understand why chapels for religious would be bare- usually they are so advanced in the spiritual life their souls are like stained glass- they are living saints, living stained glass.

But for us laity, we need something concrete to look up to. I need the smells, bells, statues, icons, marble, and all that to help instill in me a sense of prayer.

 

[adstrinity]

I am going to write a letter to the Pastor and give him my impression and ask him why his “Roman Catholic Church” is so protestant-like even in these days when our Holy Father is trying to restore the traditions.

It may not hurt to write a letter to the Bishop, either. It may not do any good, but, it may not hurt.

I’ve read the first page only, and I’m not really sure if the not-kneeling was an abuse, but, you mentioned the people stood. That is a form of respect in some way… They weren’t just sitting; they were in a posture acknowledging and respecting. Again, I’m not sure if it was APPROPRIATE according to the Latin Rite…

The Happy Birthday at Mass…THAT was NOT appropriate! That has no business during the Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[PureHeart]

These are the sort of exceptions that allow a person to refrain. However, let me add, that if you want to gain merit before God in Heaven, having pains in the knees is a great reason **to **kneel.

How do you know that? Can u quote something?

 

[JReducation]

Interesting. How old is this non-kneeling tradition?

It’s 800 years old this past May. The Franciscan family just celebrated 800 years since its founding.

And I can understand why chapels for religious would be bare- usually they are so advanced in the spiritual life their souls are like stained glass- they are living saints, living stained glass.

Never say that. We are human like everyone else. We have our idiosyncracies and sins like every man or woman. Simply put, certain religious families have traditions that date back to before the mass was made uniform for the universal Church. That did not happen until after the Council of Trent.

Even then, the uniformity was more for the benefit of parishes run by secular priests. At the time, secular priests had very poor theological, liturgical and spiritual education. There was a need for a common set of rubrics. Religioius monasteries were centers of culture and learning. The monks, friars and canons were well versed in tradition, theology, scripture and liturgy. The Church allowed us to keep our customs in our own houses and institutions.

After Vatican II, we were asked to adopt the same practices as secular priests did in parishes. This was easy to do, because many religious had taken over parishes to help the bishops. They were already following the practices of the secular clergy. One of those was kneeling. The architecture of parish churches was usually up to the local bishop, since the religious did not own the parishes. They were simply administrators. The designs of the churches was always approved by the bishop. This is still the case today.

But for us laity, we need something concrete to look up to. I need the smells, bells, statues, icons, marble, and all that to help instill in me a sense of prayer.

You can get used to the simplicity with time. I did not grow up in a religious house. Now I live in one that has a bare chapel with no kneelers, no stain glass windows, no bells and whistles, not even a carpet, just white walls, an altar, a San Damiano cross, a podium and a tabernacle. We don’t even have pews. We have chairs facing each other and the altar at the end of the room. You sit facing the brother on the opposite side. This facilitates the praying of the Divine Office. For mass, you turn yourself sideways to see the altar. Now I find it the best little chapel in the world. I still like a big classic style church and some of the modern ones too, if they’re well built. Some look like boxes. I don’t like those.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF