No Kneelers

[JReducation]

These are the sort of exceptions that allow a person to refrain. However, let me add, that if you want to gain merit before God in Heaven, having pains in the knees is a great reason **to **kneel.

Let’s be very careful here. Good spirituality is also healthy. One is not to do harm to the body. Read John Paul II’s THEOLOGY OF THE BODY.

We have to master our bodies, like an athlete preparing for a competition. We must also master the body to make sacrifices. But we may not do harm to the body.

If a person has a condition that does not allow him to kneel, it would be very wrong to do so. There is no merit in violating one’s body. In the past, this was a common form of penance, because people didn’t know better. Today we understand that true physical penance is really discipline, not torture or damage.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

The Church does not change.

St. Peregrine of Laziosi is a famous example of the virtues of kneeling. Our bodies are not so valuable as we think.

Certainly Christ did not blush to take upon Himself the Way of the Cross. Neither did St. Francis. To deny the cross is to deny Christ.

Our bodies only last us for a short time on this earth, we should prudently make the best use of them for the sake of God. That prudence can take various forms. Certainly one should normally be careful about any permanent harm, though nothing lasts forever. We must not have a worldly prudence that is a vice instead of a virtue and prevents all painful mortifications, but a heavenly prudence. Sometimes our prudence is in preservation so that we can perform tasks with the body preserved, sometimes it is in bearing painful acts for the sake of God, and often these are not at all opposing tasks.

Unless we do penance we cannot enter the kingdom. Those who do great penance are the people who preserve this world.

‘Let us read the lives of the saints; let us consider the penances which they performed, and blush to be so effeminate and so fearful of mortifying our flesh.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘Go to the cemetary and see what you love, when you love your body.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

 

[JReducation]

The Church does not change.

Our bodies are not so valuable as we think.

Certainly Christ did not blush to take upon Himself the Way of the Cross. Neither did St. Francis. To deny the cross is to deny Christ.

[/INDENT]

You’re making some important points here. The first is that the Church does not change. This is true. The Church has always encouraged penance as a form of conversiion from sin and internal discipline.

The individuals whom you mention are not the Church. They are members of the Church. I know for fact that our holy father Francis asked his body for forgiveness while on his deathbed. He admitted that he had abused his body and hurt it.

When he presented his rule for approvel, 800 years ago, it was returned to him three times because it was too severe. Pope Innocent III and Pope Honorius both said that the rule demanded excessive penances and would not approve it as it was written, even though the prescriptions in the rule came directly from scripture. The Church does not change. Francis obeyed as best he could.

Accepting the cross and torturing the body are not the same thing. Not even Francis of Assisi, the greatest penitential reformer in the history of the Church would agree with that. He did write in the Rule of the Secular Franciscans that they must be Brothers and Sisters of Penance. He wrote about the importance of hating the flesh. But he was not referring to a literal hate of the body or abuse of the body. He was referring to the fallen nature of man. .

Remember, it was Francis who also wrote the Canticle of the Creatures in which he proclaims the greatness of God through all creation. The body is part of that creation.

Again, I suggest that you read THEOLOGY OF THE BODY by John Paul II, if you have not done so. There is nothing effeminate in this.

St. Paul’s Teaching on the Sanctity and Respect of the Human Body
Pope John Paul II--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Worthy of honour

1. The specific subject of the text in question is the theology of the Church as the Body of Christ. However, in connection with this passage it can be said that Paul, by means of his great ecclesiological analogy (which recurs in other letters, and which we will take up again in due time), contributes, at the same time, to deepening the theology of the body. While in First Thessalonians he writes about control of the body in holiness and honour , in the passage now quoted from First Corinthians he wishes to show this human body as worthy of honour . It could also be said that he wishes to teach the receivers of his letter the correct concept of the human body.**

You mention common sense. Common sense tells us that we cannot torture the body. We must honor the body and discipline it to maintain it pure. Discipline is not the same as hurt it.

There were saints who did hurt their bodies, but they were wrong in doing so. As I pointed out above, Francis of Assisi was one of those who admitted that he had sinned by torturing his body. This was his last act of contrition just moments before he died.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
Franciscan Bros. of LIfe of the Order of St. Francis

 

[Shin]

St. Francis certainly did not support refraining from giving the body pains and mortification. As for your word ‘torture’ I wonder what you mean by it. As for anything contradicting the following feel free to cite your source.

St. Bonaventure wrote the following from his Life of St. Francis.

What St. Francis says at his death is, Voce mea ad Dominum clamavi voce mea ad Dominum deprecatus sum. . . the psalm until, Me expectant justi, donec retribuas mihi.

And then he gave up his soul.

Before this he said, “Farewell my children, abide in the fear of the Lord, and ever persevere therein. And when any temptation comes upon you say: Blessed are they who persevere in the things which they have begun. And now I go to God, to Whose grace I commend you all.”

Even earlier he said some other things, shortly before his last moments. I shall cite directly St. Bonaventure again.

Francis, being thus crucified with Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit. . . it came to pass he could not walk on foot because of the nails which were in his feet. . . he began to suffer from so many infirmities, that there was scarcely one of his members but was tormented by immense pain and suffering. Yet although his body was afflicted with grievous torments, he never called them by the name of pains, he spoke of them as his sisters. Once being more grievously tormented than usual, a certain simple brother said to him: “Brother, pray to God that He would deal more gently with thee, for it seems to me that His hand is heavier upon thee than is meet.” Which, when the holy man heard, he cried with great abhorrence: “But that I know the purity of thy simplicity, I should henceforth abhor thy company, for that thou hast dared to find fault with the divine judgements which are executed upon me.” And although he was all broken by the long endurance of his sufferings, he cast himself upon the ground, all his weak bones being shattered by the fall. And kissing the ground, he said, “I thank Thee, O Lord, my God, for these my pains, and I beseech Thee, O Lord to increase them a hundredfold, for this shall be most acceptable to me, that Thou spare not to afflict me with suffering, because the fulfillment of Thy Holy Will is to me an overflowing consolation.”

 

[JReducation]

St. Francis certainly did not support refraining from giving the body pains and mortification. As for your word ‘torture’ I wonder what you mean by it. As for anything contradicting the following feel free to cite your source.

**For, condescending as the saint always was to the weaknesses of others, he was ever so unsparing towards himself that at the last he felt constrained to ask pardon of "Brother *", as he called his body, for having treated it so harshly

newadvent.org/cathen/06221a.htm

This statement is found in Celano’s biography and in the papal bulls about St. Francis. In addition to the saint’s writings the sources of the history of Francis include a number of early papal bulls and some other diplomatic documents, as they are called, bearing upon his life and work. Then come the biographies properly so called. These include the lives written 1229-1247 by Thomas of Celano, one of Francis’s followers; a joint narrative of his life compiled by Leo, Rufinus, and Angelus, intimate companions of the saint, in 1246; and the celebrated legend of St. Bonaventure, which appeared about 1263;

It was after he asks forgiveness of his body that Francis begins to intone Ps. 141 which calls for God to bring his soul out of prison.

As you can see from the sources above, Bonaventure is one of several sources. One must understand that Bonaventure’s writing of St. Francis’ life was a theological treatise. This is proven by the sermons by Bonaventure on St. Francis that preceed the biography. When you read the sermons that Bonaventure writes between 1251 and 1263, published under the title The Disciple and the Master.

You can see the recurring theme in the biography. It is Bonaventure’s intention to show that Francis is the perfect Christian and the mirror of perfection.

We, Franciscans, have found that Bonaventure does not include this statement in his legend because it does not serve the purpose of the biography that he was writing.

Also, you did not address the writings of John Paul II on the honor due to the body. I don’t understand why you seem to have a need to be oppositional rather than engage in dialogue. I made a statement and you immediately demand a citation, as if any Franciscan is going to pull this statement out of the sleeve of his habit.

You need to relax a bit and enjoy dialogue and learngins and sharing with others. We’re on the same side.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

Ah, but it seemed to me that you were not relaxed, because you called the idea of accepting some pains and mortifications ‘torture’ and starting talking about the ‘honor of the body’ the changing Church and denying the entire concept basically, which is simply not Catholic.

I wanted you to cite the source directly, and not indirectly, because I know you are not exactly citing it on point. I know that St. Francis would not deny all his painful mortification, far from it, it would be to deny his stigmata, his Rule, and his life. That is the extent you are taking it to with your ambiguous statements – is that what you mean or just wish to imply? so you need to clarify them so people are not misled into thinking taking on pains of the body is wrong or forgotten which is the bad impression I have so far gotten.

That is what you have basically said so far you know. I do need to be more a peaceful saint I must admit, it still bothers me at times when people say things that are not true. I would rather be bothered and right than peaceful and err that too I must admit.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Note that many Eastern Catholic Parishes don’t have kneelers, since kneeling is not a normal part of their liturgical praxis.

Aramis:

But many them don’t have PEWS! IOW, you stand for the entire service, unless you’re old, sick, disabled, “with child” (pregnant) or a child. and, During WEEKDAY services, people do kneel, pretty close to flat on the floor. Eastern Orthodox & Eastern Catholics don’t prostrate themselves before the Lord on Sunday, but they do Prostrate themselves before the Lord Mon thru Sat. Because of my back, I do that during daily Mass in the side chapel at St. Mary’s - I’ve found that to be both easier and more humbling than the way Roman Catholics and other Westerners kneel.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

My university Newman Center is without kneelers as well. I find it distressing, but maybe thats par for the course for Newman Centers?

Recently, the Center recognized Spring graduates before the formal close of the Mass. Each grad. was allowed to say hello, their major, etc and much applause was to be had. People were leaving early, which was improper, but so was recognizing graduates during Mass!

Anyway, in my case I prefer to attend the more traditional diocesan parish for my district. I think the least obtrusive way to deal with the situation is to simply attend a traditional parish.

JB05:

Newman Centers aren’t “Parish Churches” per se - they’re places for Catholic college students & faculty members to pray & fellowship. You’ll find most are lucky if they have something other than portable chairs. One thing you can do is to ask if the Newman Center could buy Pillows to use as kneelers. We have them in the side chapel at St. Mary’s, and MOST Acolytes & Altars Servers in most Catholic & Anglican parishes use them…

If you and a few other students ask for these pillows, you may find yourself solving a problem felt by others besides yourself.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Aramis]

Depends on the particular church, and the season.

During lent, yes, FULL PROSTRATIONS are specified in most.

The Ruthenian specifies kneeling only for presanctified, and specifically during lent, which is about the only time presanctified is offered on any day other than Sunday.

Lenten hours specify full prostration. You go fully prone. Forehead on floor.

Many ECC’s DO have chairs, especially in the US. The Ruthenian-american use we sit for about 1/3 of the liturgy. We never kneel during the divine liturgy, according to the current rubrics. In fact, the word kneel is not even in the pewbook! (Nor is prostration save for one reference in a proper hymn!) It doesn’t get used for Pascha (Easter), but the Pascha service book has been edited by hand per the bishop’s orders to remove all rubrics for kneeling and replace them with standing.

We kneel during presanctified (which said service isn’t in the current pewbook). We prostrate at the end of the hours during the four fasts. We kneel at certain other paraliturgical services, as well.

Note, however, that certain Ruthenian parishes have been noted for IGNORING the Metropolitan’s orders to remove the latinization of kneeling during the Divine Liturgy. Further, the older Slavonic rubrics still include the latinization of kneeling, and some parishes supposedly still follow that, whilst others have, per the ancient tradition, returned to standing throughout.

I’ve been to services in 5 Orthodox (3 OCA, one Antiochian Orthodox, one Coptic Orthodox) parishes, as well; every one of them had chairs or benches available. Those who can not stand the whole time are permitted to sit during litanies and the epistle; for those in bad shape, sitting except for communion and the Gospel. The Coptic Orthodox parish had chairs for everyone, and all sat during litanies and the epistle, troparion and kontakion; they stood the rest of the time as well.

Edit: And given the winter coats during St. Philip’s Fast (Advent), many of us kneel upon our coats during presanctified.

There is, in byzantine praxis, less emphasis on rigid adherence to rubrics on posture, since so many can not adhere to the strictest interpretations… You do the best your body lets you, without distracting you from prayer. If that’s not going to include the prostrations, then you bow. If you can’t bow at the waist, you bow your head. If you can’t bow your head, so be it, cast your eyes down.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ah, but it seemed to me that you were not relaxed, because you called the idea of accepting some pains and mortifications ‘torture’ and starting talking about the ‘honor of the body’ the changing Church and denying the entire concept basically, which is simply not Catholic.

I wanted you to cite the source directly, and not indirectly, because I know you are not exactly citing it on point. I know that St. Francis would not deny all his painful mortification, far from it, it would be to deny his stigmata, his Rule, and his life. That is the extent you are taking it to with your ambiguous statements – is that what you mean or just wish to imply? so you need to clarify them so people are not misled into thinking taking on pains of the body is wrong or forgotten which is the bad impression I have so far gotten.

That is what you have basically said so far you know. I do need to be more a peaceful saint I must admit, it still bothers me at times when people say things that are not true. I would rather be bothered and right than peaceful and err that too I must admit.

Shin:

You might want to read some of the Spiritual Counsel offered in the Desert Fathers - specifically, St. Isaac of Syria

Words from St. Isaac of Syria
By Father Stephen
Suffer with the sick.
Be afflicted with sinners.
Exult with those who repent.
Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly. Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.
And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their place, do not destroy their character.

The person who is genuinely charitable not only gives charity out of his own possessions, but gladly tolerates injustice from others and forgives them. Whoever lays down his soul for his brother acts generously, rather than the person who demonstrates his generosity by his gifts.

If zeal had been appropriate for putting humanity right, why did God the Word clothe himself in the body, using gentleness and humility in order to bring the world back to his Father?
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/words-from-st-isaac-of-syria/

You can buy the book Daily Readings with Saint Isaac of Syria from Amazon.com ($4.95 +s&h), which has a wealth of Spiritual Direction in 80 pages.

I’ve found, much to my chagrin, that the Desert Fathers regarded Zeal as an impediment to drawing closer to God and tp peaceful prayer.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Depends on the particular church, and the season.

During lent, yes, FULL PROSTRATIONS are specified in most.

The Ruthenian specifies kneeling only for presanctified, and specifically during lent, which is about the only time presanctified is offered on any day other than Sunday.

Lenten hours specify full prostration. You go fully prone. Forehead on floor.

Many ECC’s DO have chairs, especially in the US. The Ruthenian-american use we sit for about 1/3 of the liturgy. We never kneel during the divine liturgy, according to the current rubrics. In fact, the word kneel is not even in the pewbook! (Nor is prostration save for one reference in a proper hymn!) It doesn’t get used for Pascha (Easter), but the Pascha service book has been edited by hand per the bishop’s orders to remove all rubrics for kneeling and replace them with standing.

We kneel during presanctified (which said service isn’t in the current pewbook). We prostrate at the end of the hours during the four fasts. We kneel at certain other paraliturgical services, as well.

Note, however, that certain Ruthenian parishes have been noted for IGNORING the Metropolitan’s orders to remove the latinization of kneeling during the Divine Liturgy. Further, the older Slavonic rubrics still include the latinization of kneeling, and some parishes supposedly still follow that, whilst others have, per the ancient tradition, returned to standing throughout.

I’ve been to services in 5 Orthodox (3 OCA, one Antiochian Orthodox, one Coptic Orthodox) parishes, as well; every one of them had chairs or benches available. Those who can not stand the whole time are permitted to sit during litanies and the epistle; for those in bad shape, sitting except for communion and the Gospel. The Coptic Orthodox parish had chairs for everyone, and all sat during litanies and the epistle, troparion and kontakion; they stood the rest of the time as well.

Edit: And given the winter coats during St. Philip’s Fast (Advent), many of us kneel upon our coats during presanctified.

There is, in byzantine praxis, less emphasis on rigid adherence to rubrics on posture, since so many can not adhere to the strictest interpretations… You do the best your body lets you, without distracting you from prayer. If that’s not going to include the prostrations, then you bow. If you can’t bow at the waist, you bow your head. If you can’t bow your head, so be it, cast your eyes down.

Aramis:

I’ll have to break off here - it’s well past bedtime, & I REALLY NEED SOME SLEEP. I must admit I’m used to the Orthodox brothers at CAF & my Serbian Orthodox Hair Stylist (the one luxury I allow myself - I’ve known her for 16 years), and I was going by what they’ve collectively told me.

Good Night.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Shin]

It was after he asks forgiveness of his body that Francis begins to intone Ps. 141 which calls for God to bring his soul out of prison.

What I find in Celano’s biography is this:

The enemy forthwith attacked him in another way, and, seeing that he could not conceal this snare, he prepared another, namely, the enticement of the flesh, But in vain, for he who had unmasked the wiles of the spirit could not be tricked by the flesh. So the Devil put into him a most grievous temptation of lust. But as soon as the blessed father felt it he laid aside his garment and scourged himself with his cord with all his might, saying: “There! Brother ***, thus must thou stay, thus endure the whip! The tunic belongs to Religion! it is not lawful to steal it: if thou wilt go any whither, go!” But seeing that, in spite of scourging himself, the temptation did not leave him, though he had coloured all his members with weals, he opened the cell, went out into the garden, and plunged naked into deep snow. Then, collecting the snow by handfuls. he made up seven lumps of it like balls, and setting them before him began to address his body thus: " See," he said, “this large one is thy wife, those four are thy two sons and two daughters, the two others are the manservant and maidservant who are required to wait on them; and make haste and clothe them all, for they are dying of cold! If, however, the manifold care of them troubles thee, be zealous to serve God only,” Forthwith the Devil departed, being put to confusion, and the holy man went back to his cell glorifying God.

And many similar incidents, and when he is nearing his time of death, his apology to his body is not as you put forth – not in timing, and particularly not as a total repudiation of his past behavior. This behavior would hardly be related in so many books with such glorification if it had not goodness. A total repudiation therefor is off, rather it is one of simply a desire perhaps he kept his body more alive for longer by his care. His stigmata, something painful, came from God gives us the witness. It in time prevents him from walking with its pains, God Himself chooses this.

And does not God give us everything, sickness and health and old age as well as youth as brothers and sisters? And show us how we need to at times embrace these?

The afflicting of the body is simply something one considers prudently, one would as a norm not ever want to do any permanent harm, so it could the longer serve God (though people often are too cautious thinking every little thing his harmful) – that can go too far – but temporary is fine – however painful one’s mortifications, given proper circumstances some things can be done God willing in a proper spirit. The scriptures say, “Spare the rod and spoil the child.”

The spirit of never paining or harming the *at all *body is a spirit of the world, not of God. It values the body too greatly. We can show honor the body without considering it something permanently home or to be catered to that is more valuable rather than infinitely less valuable than the soul. The honor and value due the body compared to that of the soul, is truly infinitesimal. It is the difference between dust and spirit.

Now I shall relate directly from Brother Celano’s biography St. Francis of Assisi’s apology, which happens not on the same day of his death but before it unless a later biography of Celano’s corrects this which I would gladly see – this is what we have and it is perfectly in union with St. Bonaventure’s report.

For though he was enfeebled and wholly shattered in body, he never halted in his pursuit of perfection, never suffered himself to relax the rigour of discipline; and even now that his body was worn out he could not give it even a little relief without some murmuring of conscience. Therefore when it became necessary even against his will to case his bodily distresses (which were beyond his strength to bear) with some soothing remedies, he called one of the brethren, who he knew would give him expedient counsel, and said kindly to him: " What thinkest thou, dearest son, of the frequent murmuring of my conscience touching the care of my body? It fears lest I be over-indulgent to the body in its sickness and lest I be eager to relieve it with delicacies carefully sought out. Not that it can take anything with pleasure now that it is worn by long infirmity and that all incitement of taste has gone."

 

[Shin]

The son (recognising that the words of his answer were being given him by the Lord made heedful reply to the father saying: "Tell me, father, if thou deignest to do so, with what diligence thy body, while it could, obeyed thy behests? “I bear it witness, my son,” answered Francis, "that it has been obedient in all things and has spared itself in nothing but has (as it were) rushed headlong to obey all commands. It has shirked no toil, has refused no discomfort, if only it might do as it was bid. Herein have I and it been in perfect agreement, that we should serve Christ the Lord without any reluctance. "And the brother said: ‘Where, then, father, is thy liberality? where thy compassion and thine eminent discretion? Is it a worthy rewarding of faithful friends to accept a kindness gladly, and then in the time of his need not to requite the giver’s merit? How could’st thou have served Christ thy Lord all this time without the help of the body? Has it not, as thou thyself allowest, exposed itself to every danger, for the sake of this very thing?’ “I confess, my son,” said the father, “that this is most true.” Then said the son: “Is it reasonable that thou shouldest be wanting to such great need to so faithful a friend who has for thy sake exposed himself and what is his even unto death? Be it far from thee, father, stay and staff of the afflicted; be this sin against the Lord far from thee.” “Blessed be thou, also, my son,” he answered, “who hast wisely ministered such salutary remedies to my scruples.” And he began joyfully to address his body thus: “Rejoice, brother body, and forgive me, for behold now I gladly fulfil thy desires, and gladly hasten to attend to thy complaints.” But what could delight his frail and exhausted body now? What could sustain that which had given way on every side? Francis was now dead to the world, but Christ was living in him. The world’s delights were a cross to him, because he bore Christ’s cross rooted in his heart. And therefore did the stigmata shine outwardly in his flesh because within that deeply planted root was sprouting in his mind.

Now we see that Brother Francis is apologizing for his extremity of lack of care in sustaining the body, not for the whole of what he did which was for merit, penance, and mortification especially preventing indulging the passions from causing him to sin. It is not an apologetic for his entire past denying its virtues, only that he should also have done more to sustain the body since it was actually formed in obedience to him.

And this can be seen clearly because the Rule you complain being too strict is still the rule he embraces and gives, unaltered to the his children -after- making this repentance. He still embraces his daughters, his pains.

Let us hear what happens after this apology to his body.

“It was wonderful that his strength held out to bear the sufferings in every part which had so exhausted him. But these, his distresses, he described by the name not of pains but of “sisters”.”

You see, it is after. St. Bonaventure’s relation is correct.

"But the strongest reason for his torments I take to be that (as he himself used to say concerning others) in the bearing of them “there is great reward.)”

Which is as I said, in the beginning before this became disputed. Kneeling to bear some pains in the legs, is a great reward before God in the next life. Perhaps in this case it would be bad, perhaps it would be not, it is a discernment for each case whether it does more harm than good or not.

Let us continue Celano’s biography:

**The Lord Himself speaks to St. Francis, “If the whole bulk of the earth and machine of the world were gold beyond price, and if in exchange for the heavy sufferings thou art enduring all thy pain were removed, and there were given thee for a reward a treasure of glory in comparison whereof the aforesaid gold should be nothing, and unworthy even to be named, wouldst not thou rejoice and gladly bear what thou art bearing now?”

“I should rejoice indeed, yea and above measure I should rejoice.” said St. Francis

“Exult, then,” said the Lord, “for thy sickness is the earnest of My kingdom, and do thou, secure and confident through the merit of patience, await the inheritance of that kingdom.” **

Then it was that he composed certain “Praises concerning the creatures” inciting them in some sort of praise to the Creator.

Not long thereafter, worn out by his sufferings he bade his brothers lay him naked on the ground for his death. His garment of sackcloth was removed. . (a mortification he did not deny, but merely gave up as part of giving as he says out loud, to return it to the order he had it on loan from). . .

He raised his face to heaven, and says, “I have done my duty, may Christ teach you yours.”

He then speaks of many things about poverty, death, and affection for God. He blesses all the world. . . He blesses bread and breaks it. . ."

And it is as St. Bonaventure relates is. Glory to God for painful mortifications for greater merit.

You can buy the book Daily Readings with Saint Isaac of Syria from Amazon.com ($4.95 +s&h), which has a wealth of Spiritual Direction in 80 pages.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Thank you very much for the St. Isaac the Syrian quote, it is a very good one for thought and meditation.

 

[CMP2]

QUOTE: from Sour Grape

"General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). no. 21, requiring that people
“should kneel at the Consecration unless prevented by lack of space, large numbers, or
other reasonable cause.”

This is the norm—and has been since at least 1201 A.D.—in the Roman Rite. The
bishops of the United States of America asked for and received approval from Rome for
the congregation to remain kneeling throughout the Canon of the Mass (from the end of
the through the Great Amen) and from the until the
Postcommunion prayer. This remains the norm in the U.S. In fact, in June of 1995 at
their annual summer meeting, the U.S. bishops rejected a proposal that kneeling at this
time should be optional rather than mandatory."

Thank you for the information. I guess we got a whole lot holier, or smarter since 1201AD. Isn’t if funny that all of a sudden option became the norm. Why? My personal opinion? For what it’s worth…many people want to be “equals”. That misinformed liberationist garbage since Vat. II. We are not and we shall never be equal with either a Priest in his Sacramental role nor with God. We are not at Holy Mass to be entertained nor to “feel” good about ourselves. Nor necessarily to be “comfortable”.

“When in Rome” (tired of hearing this as well). We know what happened to St. Peter, St. Paul and numerous other Martyrs in Rome, and what befell them precisely because they didn’t “do as the Romans did in Rome”. We are to do as directed by the correct Norms (as demonstrated by the Holy Father in Rome, administering Holy Communion to kneelers and oral receivers), and to follow the teachings of the Traditional as well as the “new” thinkers. To err on the higher side of increasing one’s devotion and humility to the Eucharist and not the other way around.

If one is baptised in another rite, then so be it. If not, then stick to where we are to be and stop trying to be so inclusive. If I go to an Eastern Church I will still kneel from the end of the Sanctus to the Grand Amen and from the Agnus Dei until the Postcommunion prayer . I am Roman Catholic and I will be Roman Catholic not only in words but also in actions.

 

[JReducation]

The son (recognising that the words of his answer were being given him by the Lord made heedful reply to the father saying: "Tell me, father, if thou deignest to do so, with what diligence thy body, while it could, obeyed thy behests? “I bear it witness, my son,” answered Francis, "that it has been obedient in all things and has spared itself in nothing but has (as it were) rushed headlong to obey all commands. It has shirked no toil, has refused no discomfort, if only it might do as it was bid. Herein have I and it been in perfect agreement, that we should serve Christ the Lord without any reluctance. "And the brother said: ‘Where, then, father, is thy liberality? where thy compassion and thine eminent discretion? Is it a worthy rewarding of faithful friends to accept a kindness gladly, and then in the time of his need not to requite the giver’s merit? How could’st thou have served Christ thy Lord all this time without the help of the body? Has it not, as thou thyself allowest, exposed itself to every danger, for the sake of this very thing?’ “I confess, my son,” said the father, “that this is most true.” Then said the son: “Is it reasonable that thou shouldest be wanting to such great need to so faithful a friend who has for thy sake exposed himself and what is his even unto death? Be it far from thee, father, stay and staff of the afflicted; be this sin against the Lord far from thee.” “Blessed be thou, also, my son,” he answered, “who hast wisely ministered such salutary remedies to my scruples.” And he began joyfully to address his body thus: “Rejoice, brother body, and forgive me, for behold now I gladly fulfil thy desires, and gladly hasten to attend to thy complaints.” But what could delight his frail and exhausted body now? What could sustain that which had given way on every side? Francis was now dead to the world, but Christ was living in him. The world’s delights were a cross to him, because he bore Christ’s cross rooted in his heart. And therefore did the stigmata shine outwardly in his flesh because within that deeply planted root was sprouting in his mind.

Now we see that Brother Francis is apologizing for his extremity of lack of care in sustaining the body, not for the whole of what he did which was for merit, penance, and mortification especially preventing indulging the passions from causing him to sin. It is not an apologetic for his entire past denying its virtues, only that he should also have done more to sustain the body since it was actually formed in obedience to him.

And this can be seen clearly because the Rule you complain being too strict is still the rule he embraces and gives, unaltered to the his children -after- making this repentance. He still embraces his daughters, his pains.

Let us hear what happens after this apology to his body.

“It was wonderful that his strength held out to bear the sufferings in every part which had so exhausted him. But these, his distresses, he described by the name not of pains but of “sisters”.”

You see, it is after. St. Bonaventure’s relation is correct.

"But the strongest reason for his torments I take to be that (as he himself used to say concerning others) in the bearing of them “there is great reward.)”

Which is as I said, in the beginning before this became disputed. Kneeling to bear some pains in the legs, is a great reward before God in the next life. Perhaps in this case it would be bad, perhaps it would be not, it is a discernment for each case whether it does more harm than good or not.

Let us continue Celano’s biography:

**The Lord Himself speaks to St. Francis, “If the whole bulk of the earth and machine of the world were gold beyond price, and if in exchange for the heavy sufferings thou art enduring all thy pain were removed, and there were given thee for a reward a treasure of glory in comparison whereof the aforesaid gold should be nothing, and unworthy even to be named, wouldst not thou rejoice and gladly bear what thou art bearing now?”

“I should rejoice indeed, yea and above measure I should rejoice.” said St. Francis

“Exult, then,” said the Lord, “for thy sickness is the earnest of My kingdom, and do thou, secure and confident through the merit of patience, await the inheritance of that kingdom.” **

Then it was that he composed certain “Praises concerning the creatures” inciting them in some sort of praise to the Creator.

Not long thereafter, worn out by his sufferings he bade his brothers lay him naked on the ground for his death. His garment of sackcloth was removed. . (a mortification he did not deny, but merely gave up as part of giving as he says out loud, to return it to the order he had it on loan from). . .

He raised his face to heaven, and says, “I have done my duty, may Christ teach you yours.”

He then speaks of many things about poverty, death, and affection for God. He blesses all the world. . . He blesses bread and breaks it. . ."

And it is as St. Bonaventure relates is. Glory to God for painful mortifications for greater merit.

Thank you very much for the St. Isaac the Syrian quote, it is a very good one for thought and meditation.

Let’s not take this to the extreme. The answer that I gave to the poster still stands. If you’re going to do harm to your knees by kneeling, you need not do so without any culpability. No, the Church does not want you to hurt or damage your body. The body is to be disciplined, but it is also to be honored. That’s the summation in John Paul’s Theology of the Body.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

Well, I think we have both said what needs to be said about the matter. I will leave it at that.

 

[CMP2]

Dear JR and Shin:

I love you both to bits. Just to let you know.

The writings of St. Francis that you posted Shin moved me to tears. I do know this desire to share in the suffering of the Master. To suffer what He gives us to bear in the way He did, but knowing I will never achieve this purely as He did. But, my knowledge of the Holy Martlyrs and Redemptive Souls gives me the courage that if it comes perhaps I, as unworthy a vessel as I am, may one day do the same.

Then comes JR with his reason: “The body is to be disciplined, but it is also to be honored.” As stated by Pope JPII. This is also true. I, a former RN gave patients sufficient pain meds. to help them heal. Sometimes this is necessary.

If one can prevent suffering by human means than so be it. If a person cannot kneel, prostrate, or show by his posture full reverence and awe that Jesus deserves in the Blessed Sacrament then so be it.

I say “push” oneself as far as one can even to the point of great anguish. BUT if told by a trusted adviser or confessor NOT to do so then obey. To suffer a bit is an honor and should never be done if it causes harm beyond necessity. Go to your adviser if one is in doubt as to whether or not it is excessive.

Thank you both for showing both sides so well. God bless you, I carry you in my prayers, c.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

I agree, you should take action and let the parish priest know your concerns. The “watering down” of our Catholic traditions harms our unity and confuses outsiders and us. Pope John XXIII never meant for the “modernists” to tear apart the sacred traditions in the way that these type of churches are doing. I had a similar experience here in my city, I just went to a neighboring parish because I wanted to go to a different time Mass that was being offered…the experience was very similar…a big room, I couldn’t find the tabernacle, folding chairs, no kneelers, people sitting around talking while they waited for Mass to begin, kids running around, no stations of the cross or any statue of a saint could I find. I finally got so sick to my stomach that I didn’t even wait for the gospel before I had to leave…crying…and went to another parish to Mass. It was absolutely horrible.

I’ll pray for St. Michael to support you.

PS…it wasn’t a temporary situation, it is still that way, 2 years later. It is that parish priest’s leadership that makes it that way.

 

[CMP2]

Re msg. from Hyacinth II

I too have left Churches in tears at the examples of the desecration and lack of reverence in them. This is an outrage and should never be tolerated in any Parish.

One can, and indeed is encouraged, to go to the Bishop of the Diocese and if this produces no fruits then directly to the Congregation of the Faith in Rome. It will be addressed. I have an adviser that did send a video of a former Bishop here to them.

Not to take action (not referring to you Hyacinth) is like knowing of a child being abused/aborted and staying silent. If we are silent out of a misguided sense of humility towards a Priest or layperson abusing Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament we are as guilty. He is as helpless as a baby being aborted. Silent and innocent.

It doesn’t stop at the Parish Priest. NO, it doesn’t. We are to be vigilant and if presented by the Holy Spirit an incident of this type then we must act. We are then as guilty as the person committing the act if we do not.

Laypeople are not merely silent participants in Holy Mass, we are praying the Mass along with the Priest and are responsible to God to act.

O.K. enough said. God bless you, c.

 

[mullenpm]

CMP2, I did send a letter to the Pastor of the church I posted about. I want to give him a week or so to respond. If no response in that time I will definitely send a copy of my letter to our Archbishop.

I wrote a respectful letter and mentioned only the lack of kneelers (none of the other things that really bothered me) because I did not want to make him angry first thing, and I really did not want to hurt his feelings.:nope:

Thanks for your advice.