No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[Brandon72]

Oh I see…Jesus was really pulling the Jews leg when he said one must EAT MY FLESH and DRINK my BLOOD or else you have no life? Geeeee…if it was symbolic, funny how so many left because they themselves said: This teaching is hard to ACCEPT.

As for the verses plucking one’s eye out and cutting your hand off? How about I am the vine? How about I am the Gate/Door? Did the people react the same way as they did when he said: THIS IS MY BODY and eat MT FLESH and DRINK my BLOOD?

How many left when he said I am the Vine? The Door? Pluck your eyes?

I do not recall anyone believing Jesus was literally a door or a vine. By the way, notice how Jesus places his hand on bread and blesses it and I do not recall Him doing that with other symbols:Vine,door,etc.

You still did not answer me:

Show me ONE place in scripture where God declares something and it does not happen? Case in point, “Let there be light” and so on. So how is: THIS IS MY BODY, not a declaration from God?

OK, I won’t show you a Scripture that you are looking for because whatever God declare is done. However, you are getting the true meaning of Jesus is saying.

[35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; **whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. **

(John 6:35 ESV

It’s real easy, Jesus is the “bread” of life and in the next sentence he gives the meaning. If we come to Him we won’t hunger. (Not physically eating Him but coming to His call.) Whoever believes will never be thirsty. (Not physically drinking his blood, but if you believe your spiritual thirst will be quenched.)

[47] Truly, truly, I say to you ,whoever believes has eternal life. [48]** I am the bread of life.** [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread that comes down from heaven, **so that one may eat of it and not die. **
(John 6:47-50 ESV)

There it is black and white. If you believe, you are spiritually eating the True bread from Heaven, not the manna (physical bread) that the Jews ate and died.

God Bless

 

[Patrick_Ambrose]

It’s so sad to hear so many words having to be thrown back and forth over an issue that we all try to live to attain through Christ our Lord and Savior.

I’m speaking for me as a Catholic, a believer in Christ. Those who reject the Catholic Church and her sacraments, reject many graces offered by Christ and, therefore, reject more of what God has provided for us and our salvation. Not saying it’s impossible but it is something to think about.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My problems with extra ecclesium non salus is the fact that Trent is very definitely saying, not catholic? Doomed. Then with Vatican II we get more of a warm, fuzzy appreciation for Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, and non-Christian faiths, etc. We hear that there is the ‘possibility’ of salvation with invinsible ignorance, etc. And then when you ask Catholic apologists who one can reconcile Trent and its hardcore damnation to non-Catholics, etc. with the more hopeful and open Vatican II, they say, “well there’s no change here at all. The Church always could save non-Catholics but God does it through the Catholic Church somehow. Nobody can be saved without the Catholic Church so God uses the Church to save them even though they’ve never known the Church.” To that my rather un-intelligent reply is 'HUH?" How can someone in outer Mongolia, who has never once heard of Christ Jesus let alone the pope or the Church be saved by said Church? The only way I can imagine is a post-mortem after-death RCIA in the afterworld? Otherwise, more realistically I can see Jesus saving the person one-on-one through His own power, not “through” the Church that the person never knew? Sounds more feasible than the catechism through fire after-death experience? I still don’t know what that means?

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerny,

What Pope Benedict was previously addressing was this fuzziness of Vatican II and how it was interpreted to be lax…Jesus said with the lukewarm, He would spit them out.

Where I came from, sin was no longer the sin it once was, then I knew we weren’t going in the right direction, atleast for me. In time, I met other Catholics who were having the same reservation…and we drew together, then met priests who were dealing with the same issues…all that is resolved now.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But what does that have to do with what I said about the scenario of the chap from Outer Mongolia and salvation for him through a Catholicism he never knew up to his death?

Guerny,

What Pope Benedict was previously addressing was this fuzziness of Vatican II and how it was interpreted to be lax…Jesus said with the lukewarm, He would spit them out.

Where I came from, sin was no longer the sin it once was, then I knew we weren’t going in the right direction, atleast for me. In time, I met other Catholics who were having the same reservation…and we drew together, then met priests who were dealing with the same issues…all that is resolved now.

 

[KathleenGee]

I will draw the passages out from Vatican II tomorrow on this very issue about the fellow from Mongolia.

Getting some rest…Good evening! Keep all in prayers when I finish on CAF for the day.

 

[Vico]

My problems with extra ecclesium non salus is the fact that Trent is very definitely saying, not catholic? Doomed. Then with Vatican II we get more of a warm, fuzzy appreciation for Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, and non-Christian faiths, etc. We hear that there is the ‘possibility’ of salvation with invinsible ignorance, etc. And then when you ask Catholic apologists who one can reconcile Trent and its hardcore damnation to non-Catholics, etc. with the more hopeful and open Vatican II, they say, “well there’s no change here at all. The Church always could save non-Catholics but God does it through the Catholic Church somehow. Nobody can be saved without the Catholic Church so God uses the Church to save them even though they’ve never known the Church.” To that my rather un-intelligent reply is 'HUH?" How can someone in outer Mongolia, who has never once heard of Christ Jesus let alone the pope or the Church be saved by said Church? The only way I can imagine is a post-mortem after-death RCIA in the afterworld? Otherwise, more realistically I can see Jesus saving the person one-on-one through His own power, not “through” the Church that the person never knew? Sounds more feasible than the catechism through fire after-death experience? I still don’t know what that means?

Turn it around, this is a defintion: if you are saved, then you are in the Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints. Now, how can one be saved? Salvation is not limited to the visible Church.

Lumen Gentium 16: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)”

• (19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72. For this reference see:
  forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=180682
  The key thought is “Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.”

Lumen Gentium:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

You have mentioned Vatican II as some transition point before, but if there was a transition it was before that. Remember that the Baltimore Catechism No. 3, 1891, which was about 75 years before Vatican II, and also described salvation by baptism of blood and baptism of desire, and that perfect contrition of the baptised, although non-Catholic were ways of salvation.

intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/_P1U.HTM#12M

159. Q. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.
160. Q. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.
161. Q. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

1. 
   *]Has been validly baptized;
   *]Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
   *]Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
   
   Q. 1169. Who are they who do not believe all that God has taught?
   A. They who do not believe all that God has taught are the heretics and infidels.
   Q. 1170. Name the different classes of unbelievers and tell what they are.
   A. The different classes of unbelievers are:
   1. Atheists, who deny there is a God;
   2. Deists, who admit there is a God, but deny that He revealed a religion;
   3. Agnostics, who will neither admit nor deny the existence of God;
   4. Infidels, who have never been baptized, and who, through want of faith, refuse to be baptized;
   5. Heretics, who have been baptized Christians, but do not believe all the articles of faith;
   6. Schismatics, who have been baptized and believe all the articles of faith, but do not submit to the authority of the Pope;
   7. Apostates, who have rejected the true religion, in which they formerly believed, to join a false religion;
   8. Rationalists and Materialists, who believe only in material things.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks for the post, Vico. I like the way you put it here. Nicely-done.

Turn it around, this is a defintion: if you are saved, then you are in the Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints. Now, how can one be saved? Salvation is not limited to the visible Church.

Lumen Gentium 16: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)”

• (19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72. For this reference see:
  forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=180682
  The key thought is “Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.”

Lumen Gentium:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

You have mentioned Vatican II as some transition point before, but if there was a transition it was before that. Remember that the Baltimore Catechism No. 3, 1891, which was about 75 years before Vatican II, and also described salvation by baptism of blood and baptism of desire, and that perfect contrition of the baptised, although non-Catholic were ways of salvation.

intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/_P1U.HTM#12M

159. Q. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.
160. Q. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.
161. Q. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

1. 
   *]Has been validly baptized;
   *]Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
   *]Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
   
   Q. 1169. Who are they who do not believe all that God has taught?
   A. They who do not believe all that God has taught are the heretics and infidels.
   Q. 1170. Name the different classes of unbelievers and tell what they are.
   A. The different classes of unbelievers are:
   1. Atheists, who deny there is a God;
   2. Deists, who admit there is a God, but deny that He revealed a religion;
   3. Agnostics, who will neither admit nor deny the existence of God;
   4. Infidels, who have never been baptized, and who, through want of faith, refuse to be baptized;
   5. Heretics, who have been baptized Christians, but do not believe all the articles of faith;
   6. Schismatics, who have been baptized and believe all the articles of faith, but do not submit to the authority of the Pope;
   7. Apostates, who have rejected the true religion, in which they formerly believed, to join a false religion;
   8. Rationalists and Materialists, who believe only in material things.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Vico!!

 

[Patrick_Ambrose]

I appreciate the fact that we, as Catholics, have all the graces that God has to give. However, we are still not perfect and being Catholic is not always a reason for salvation just as being Non-Catholic is not a reason for no salvation. Being Christ centered, I think, is the true reason for being saved.

As many on this post have stated, the Pope has never said ‘only Catholics are saved and the rest of the world is damned’. What needs to happen is that we reach out to one another with a humble heart, the guidance of the Holy Spirit and a focus on Christ, the leader of the Church. Then, I think, it can become clear what the Catholic Church truly has to offer; then God’s Wisdom can be heard and those who hear will follow.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No argument there, but the extra ecclesium non salus says “outside the Church there is no salvation…” So salvation can only come through Catholicism…not just being Christ-centered. So how does the Catholic Church save someone after the person dies and never knew Catholicism or darkened the doors of a Catholic parish? That’s more my speculative question…

I appreciate the fact that we, as Catholics, have all the graces that God has to give. However, we are still not perfect and being Catholic is not always a reason for salvation just as being Non-Catholic is not a reason for no salvation. Being Christ centered, I think, is the true reason for being saved.

As many on this post have stated, the Pope has never said ‘only Catholics are saved and the rest of the world is damned’. What needs to happen is that we reach out to one another with a humble heart, the guidance of the Holy Spirit and a focus on Christ, the leader of the Church. Then, I think, it can become clear what the Catholic Church truly has to offer; then God’s Wisdom can be heard and those who hear will follow.

 

[Vico]

gurneyhalleck1,

Have you feasted your eyes on these teachings from the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism , the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” 64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Let the feast for my eyes…begin!

gurneyhalleck1,

Have you feasted your eyes on these teachings from the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism , the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” 64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[rinnie]

No argument there, but the extra ecclesium non salus says “outside the Church there is no salvation…” So salvation can only come through Catholicism…not just being Christ-centered. So how does the Catholic Church save someone after the person dies and never knew Catholicism or darkened the doors of a Catholic parish? That’s more my speculative question…

Simple, All you have to do is think back to St Paul. Saul Saul why are you persecuting me!! How did Jesus speak to Peter, Simple In the Human Form.

AH, But how did Jesus speak to ST Paul, Simple Divine.!

God our Father words thru us many ways. For some the visible church on earth, For others the Holy Spirit words through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Same Spirit, same teaching, has to be, or it would not be the True Holy Spirit.

But it is all from the Same God, Same Spirit, Same Teaching. We are left the RCC that is led by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is taught to us, Jesus said I will send the Holy Spirit the Advocate to lead you to all truth.

Now think back, the Apostles were all afraid, UNTIL the Advocate came upon them, then they took off and knew what to do, what to say, and how to teach.

Same thing. The advocate the Holy Spirit will come upon others in far off places, same as God did with Abraham. God KNOWS who to go to, and HOW to GET his Point across

Something to always remember also. The world will never end until The teachings of Jesus Christ has reached the whole world.

Scripture tells us Go and Make disciples of ALL NATIONS!

 

[rinnie]

No argument there, but the extra ecclesium non salus says “outside the Church there is no salvation…” So salvation can only come through Catholicism…not just being Christ-centered. So how does the Catholic Church save someone after the person dies and never knew Catholicism or darkened the doors of a Catholic parish? That’s more my speculative question…

Again gurney also remember to us the RCC is Jesus Christ. So you have to remember that.

There is no Salvation Outside of the CC
There is no Salvation Outside of Jesus Christ.

Same thing!!

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerny,

You really need to get yourself a hard bound catechism and learn about your faith. It is absolutely fantastic.

Christ will never condemn someone who lives by the golden rule. I met an African one day who had washed his employers’ clothes. He found out he had washed the money as well and instead of pocketing the money, he hung the bills up on the clothesline to dry as well.

You know what? I was around some fundamentalist Catholic charismatic and they got into this about not being saved. The head priest was there that day at the mission. This whole idea of condemnation in the mind of human beings is pretty dangerous to your own soul.

I asked him about people who are not Catholic/Christian are saved. He turned it around and asked me if I were God, would I condemn someone to hell who lived a good life, was sharing and kind, but did not know Christ? I said no.

The Council of Trent was dealing with the Church as the source of true revelation of Christ in the midst of further breakdown of Christianity due to the many interpretations of the Bible, and the breakdown of common humanity among Christians. You have to understand the spirit of the Church in the times it is in. Same with the Council of Florence that was trying to prevent the direction ecclesiasics were heading but it was too late. A number of Swiss bishops from Basel, Switzerland were excommunicated.

I mean, look at the Christians fighting each other in the name of Christ…albeit their countries this past century.

 

[rinnie]

Guerny,

You really need to get yourself a hard bound catechism and learn about your faith. It is absolutely fantastic.

Christ will never condemn someone who lives by the golden rule. I met an African one day who had washed his employers’ clothes. He found out he had washed the money as well and instead of pocketing the money, he hung the bills up on the clothesline to dry as well.

You know what? I was around some fundamentalist Catholic charismatic and they got into this about not being saved. The head priest was there that day at the mission. This whole idea of condemnation in the mind of human beings is pretty dangerous to your own soul.

I asked him about people who are not Catholic/Christian are saved. He turned it around and asked me if I were God, would I condemn someone to hell who lived a good life, was sharing and kind, but did not know Christ? I said no.

The Council of Trent was dealing with the Church as the source of true revelation of Christ in the midst of further breakdown of Christianity due to the many interpretations of the Bible, and the breakdown of common humanity among Christians. You have to understand the spirit of the Church in the times it is in. Same with the Council of Florence that was trying to prevent the direction ecclesiasics were heading but it was too late. A number of Swiss bishops from Basel, Switzerland were excommunicated.

I mean, look at the Christians fighting each other in the name of Christ…albeit their countries this past century.

Hi Kathleen, My Dad would say Oh, They KNEW Christ alright, The living a good life, sharing and kindness, Who do you think they got it from? They knew Christ alright. He was in them, they just did not know it! They may have not known him by Name but they knew him by Spirit!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks for the tip but I already own one. Paper back, sorry it’s not hardcover.

Guerny,

You really need to get yourself a hard bound catechism and learn about your faith. It is absolutely fantastic.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rinnie,

I was told not to mention the name of Christ until a native asked me why I was there…either the same day or the next, this young man asked me why I was there…I told him it was because of Jesus.

God wastes no time for the sincere of heart.

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerny,

Being on CAF, I am finally using it after referring to it in class for a number of years…it was like I had a hole in my head…and I am sure people here think I still have one.

I have the hardback and it is easier to read…I keep learning more and more reviewing it…I also love the constitution on the liturgy…I would love to teach liturgical catechesis…but need more education…not at this time…

God bless you!..and you, too, Rinnie.