Nominees for worst hymn

[verdigirl]

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Lectionary is also under the sights of Vox Clara, especially with regards to Liturgicam Authenticam. Just read Fr. Richard John Neuhaus’ lament over the translation that we are using for Mass. The only reason why we are stuck with this very bad translation (for now) is because the USCCB owns the rights to the New American Bible. Now, from the looks of it, the USCCB is going to have to re-translate everything to conform to Liturgicam Authenticam. Oddly enough, the rest of the English-speaking world uses the RSVB. Go to this website:

www.firstthings.com

and you will find, in the archives section of On the Public Square, Fr. Richard John Neuhaus’ sommentary.

And when that day comes, I feel confident that texts will be updated. As it is, OCP has taken great strides to ensure that the Psalm settings used in Respond and Acclaim/Responda y Aclama conform to the current translations that we use in the United States. I have seen many changes in that publication alone to tweak the text to conformity.

So I’ll ask you again: what exactly is your issue with the song? The delivery? The text? The theology?

 

[mercygate]

No, but I certainly welcome OCP’s attempts to help me bring our traditional texts to a congregation that doesn’t know anything about chant.

I employ a five-year plan when looking at pieces of music, with the end result being a hymn or a chant. So I used Sr. Bernadette’s piece for two years straight, and then when I finally used the Lambillotte piece, it was no problem. I even had people come up to me and remark how much they enjoy hearing that piece every year.

LOL!

I guess it worked!

Also, I think we’re splitting hairs about whether all the Bishops approved Music in Catholic Worship. It’s like saying that the Bishops are like-minded in denying Communion to pro-choice politicians.

I digress, but I bring it up to make a point. We don’t have to have their unanimous agreement to have a sound document that provides good guidelines for us to use.

Are you disagreeing with my quotes?

Why not just teach chant?

 

[Cat]

I love most of the St. Louis Jesuits hymns! I think they’re beautiful.

Of course all of us are entitled to our opinions, but I wish so much that you wouldn’t criticize the “SLJ” with such derision.

My daughter is a student at St. Louis University, which is the alma mater of many of these (dripping with sarcasm) “St. Louis Jesuits.”

Although she got off to a rocky start because of the extreme fascination that so many of her fellow students have with drinking until they puke, now that she is a Senior and all those losers have flunked out and are working at McDonald’s, she really loves the school.

She’s been very involved with the music department even though she’s not a music major, and she absolutely loves the music faculty. Her choir director is wonderful, and so are the voice and piano faculty. These people seem to truly love the Lord.

And although she has had at least one “liberal” professor, everyone else has been very Christian and very Catholic, and even though my daughter is not Catholic (yet, although she and her fiance are talking about it), she really loves these professors. They are so caring about the students. It’s a wonderful atmosphere for her.

She has two “extreme Catholic” roommates (daily Massers, fasters, etc.) and they are having such a good year.

And SLU has a great reputation in St. Louis. Whenever we travel down there and mention to our hotel clerk, waitress, etc. that our daughter is a student at SLU, they usually launch into a praise litany of all the volunteer projects that SLU students are involved with in the city, and how much good they do for the poor.

BTW, if anyone lives in that part of the country, SLU is doing The Messiah (Part 1) on December 10. My daughter has been pleading for three years with the choir director to do it, and this year, he’s doing it! My daughter is one of the soloists. Come see it! We’ll be there!

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal

If

They don’t make the majority of Catholics and crisis magazine seems a little biased toward neo-Catholicism.

Thats your opinion, which myself and others don’t share.

Once again, you’re making statements about me, that I never stated. As I said in an earlier post, there is almost no music I do not like and that would include old liturgical Music.

Ah a Protestant, there’s the real reason for hating his music.

Again, you’re stating your own personal taste in liturgical music, which unfortunately for you, not everyone shares.

Jim

Protestants do not have the fullness of truth. Their theology is skewed, especially when it comes to the Mass because they have no notion of sacrifice. For them, Holy Communion is a symbol.

Please do not denigrade what the Church has, for many centuries, held sacred: its sound and theological musical tradition.

Crisis Magazine may have its faults, but, when it comes to this particular article, they hit the nail on the head many times. They are not as heretical as America tends to be. You have yet to find solid liturgical documentation to make any of your points.

 

[daeve]

OT.

Did you know that you can sing ANY song in the world to the tune of “Oh, Susanna!”?

It’s the Universal Melody.

I am not kidding. My husband and I did this once on a long car trip. We sang everything from Hallelujah Chorus to Yesterday to *Theme from Little Mermaid * to this tune, and we could make it work! It was a hoot! Great way to pass time in the car!

In fact, I just tried it with Ave Maria. It’s really kind of cool–slow it waaay down, and it sounds like a chant! I’ll bet if someone sang it in church, most people wouldn’t guess it.

Try it!

I went to a Sunday evening Mass a zillion years ago at a neighboring church. There was no organist, so the lector was leading the songs. The first one was familiar but odd, then the second was the same way. We finally realized he was singing the Marine Corps Hymn melody for every song. Yeah, it was pretty funny after that.

 

[benedictgal]

And when that day comes, I feel confident that texts will be updated. As it is, OCP has taken great strides to ensure that the Psalm settings used in Respond and Acclaim/Responda y Aclama conform to the current translations that we use in the United States. I have seen many changes in that publication alone to tweak the text to conformity.

So I’ll ask you again: what exactly is your issue with the song? The delivery? The text? The theology?

OCP has made several grave errors with many of the music it publishes. In fact, they were told that they needed to remove the infamous Christopher Walker “Gloria” from the service music portion of the book to the hymns section because it was a severe paraphrase of the actual Gloria, something expressly forbidden in the GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum. Furthermore, the traditional Spanish version of the “Gloria” is also under question because it removed significant parts of the required text. They have also taken liberties with the Agnus Dei in their Spanish versions.

Now, as much as I think GIA is a little more superior to OCP, they, too, have their faults. Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation Agnus Dei adds words to the text, which are not allowed. Gather Us In, which I used to like until I studied the lyrics, is more of a celebration of ourselves than rendering adoration to God.

OCP is chiefly responsible for many of the bad music we have in our churches today. We don’t need 100,000 new songs. We just need to have music that expresses basic Catholic belief in the Holy Sacrifice, is universal and conforms to the norms and requirements of the Church.

I am sorry, but I cannot trust a publishing house that takes too many liberties with sacred texts and publishes hymnals that are 80% Protestant praise music.

 

[mercygate]

Protestants do not have the fullness of truth. Their theology is skewed, especially when it comes to the Mass because they have no notion of sacrifice. For them, Holy Communion is a symbol.

Please do not denigrade what the Church has, for many centuries, held sacred: its sound and theological musical tradition.

Crisis Magazine may have its faults, but, when it comes to this particular article, they hit the nail on the head many times. They are not as heretical as America tends to be. You have yet to find solid liturgical documentation to make any of your points.

To my mind the confusion lies in the distinction between sacred liturgical music and religious-themed music in the popular mode.

Before anybody tries to whomp me upside the knot with the whole business about “old” hymns being based in secular sources, Imany of those are equally problematic with the SLJ stuff. Moreover, that assertion is largely mythical. Most hymns were written AND composed to the point.

Besides, as I understand it, hymns at Mass are a concession to modern preferences, since until quite recently (the Reformation?) the Mass was always sung whole-cloth, not merely punctuated by congregational singing.

 

[daeve]

Maybe this will help…

Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
A tale of a fateful trip
That saved a wretch like me
That started from this tropic port
I once was lost but now am found
Aboard this tiny ship
Was blind but now I see
The mate was a might sailing man
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
The skipper brave and sure
And grace my fears relieved
Five passengers set sail that day
How precious did that grace appear
For a three-hour tour (a three-hour tour)
The hour I first believed (the hour I first believed)
**
I’m glad this is an internet forum… I’d probably be stoned to death for starting this!

Well, it’s just perfect, isn’t it. What am I going to do next time I have to sing this at a funeral! Boy, are YOU in trouble now!

 

[benedictgal]

I love most of the St. Louis Jesuits hymns! I think they’re beautiful.

Of course all of us are entitled to our opinions, but I wish so much that you wouldn’t criticize the “SLJ” with such derision.

/QUOTE]

It’s not derision, but, the SLJ really did us no favors. They were the ones who began the downward spiral in liturgical music. Have we completely thrown out almost two millenia of solid, theologically sound and liturgically appropriate music for a quartet of folk singers?

Have you looked at the older hymns of the Church? Attende Domine is one of the most beautiful pieces and is the ultimate Lenten Hymn. O Come, O Come Emmanuel is at the heart of Advent, as is Creator of the Stars of Night. These hymns were written in the 9th centuries. The Eucharistic hymns of St. Thomas Aquinas are also priceless Church treasures because they are clear about our belief in the Real Presence.

Now, some of the Victorian hymns are a bit syrupy such as O Mary, We Crown Thee with Flowers Today. But, they didn’t try to reduce the Mass to a “feel good” experience.

 

[daeve]

I take my hat off to you, and I pray that your parish community will support your music ministry enough to fund it well. It’s amazing how much a good leader can galvanize the ministry.

I’ll be in the Denver area this Christmas, but if I happen to be there, I PROMISE I’ll hang out with you!!!

For an affluent parish, there’s not much money for music. But “come on down!” We’d love to have you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Here’s an interesting and balanced article about
Hymns we like and don’t like.

americancatholic.org/Messenger/May1996/feature2.asp#top

Jim

 

[pnewton]

Here’s an interesting and balanced article about
Hymns we like and don’t like.

americancatholic.org/Messenger/May1996/feature2.asp#top

Jim

Not bad. I commend them for their balance. I like most, but am surprised that among the Lenten hymns, “Draw Near O Lord” (Attende Domine) was not the first.

 

[verdigirl]

Furthermore, the traditional Spanish version of the “Gloria” is also under question because it removed significant parts of the required text. They have also taken liberties with the Agnus Dei in their Spanish versions.

My sister, Benedictgal, please cite for me, word for word, which Spanish text of the Gloria or Agnus Dei to which you refer.

You are right that some of the settings don’t use a direct translation from the original Latin, and instead are intended to fit a melodic structure, but this is not true in every case.

Please cite precisely which setting to which you refer. I have the lingering suspicion that you don’t have enough of a familiarity with the Spanish language to say this is true for yourself. I almost feel you are taking second-hand information on this point.

At any rate, it is exactly this type of manipulation of the text that the Bishops are reviewing, right? Absent of any specific guidelines, composers will take certain liberties. Some of them even feel they are accurately presenting the texts.

 

[verdigirl]

Cat;2964464:

Have you looked at the older hymns of the Church? Attende Domine is one of the most beautiful pieces and is the ultimate Lenten Hymn. O Come, O Come Emmanuel is at the heart of Advent, as is Creator of the Stars of Night. These hymns were written in the 9th centuries. The Eucharistic hymns of St. Thomas Aquinas are also priceless Church treasures because they are clear about our belief in the Real Presence.

Now, some of the Victorian hymns are a bit syrupy such as O Mary, We Crown Thee with Flowers Today. But, they didn’t try to reduce the Mass to a “feel good” experience.

Well, first, I used Attende Domine as a Lenten processional in Latin for both the English and Spanish speakers. It took them years to get there, though.

O Come is used every Advent, in Spanish and English, and again as a prelude to midnight mass in Latin. If they don’t sing along, they are appreciating the beauty of the original language, and they know EXACTLY what’s being said because we did the legwork ahead of time.

Creator of the Stars is in my plan. I haven’t found a suitable Spanish translation, so I’m working on it.

No, the Mass isn’t about feel-good experiences, but it’s a good start for undereducated and marginalized populations. You just have to follow up with good liturgy once you get their attention.

Sorry, not all Catholics are as educated as you or I. Jesus went to go meet all sinners and downtrodden in the places where He found them. Cannot we do the same and meet our undereducated Catholic brothers and sisters…and then raise them up?

 

[Alphonsus_John]

In another forum, folks were invited to post their favorite hymns. Following the original poster’s vein, I now ask for candidates for the bottom of the barrel. Here are mine:

Pescador de los Hombres (Lord, When You Stood by the Seashore)
Here I Am, Lord
Glory and Praise to our God
The King of Glory
Sing a New Song Unto the Lord
Lead Me, Lord
O Love of God/O Amor de Dios
Make Me a Channel of Your Peace
Bread of Life
Gather Us In
Song of the Body of Christ
Sing a New Church
Whatsoever You Do
They’ll Know We are Christians
On Eagles’ Wings
Lord of Glory (especially when they sing with a banjo)
Battle Hymn of the Republic
Though the Mountains May Fall
One Bread, One Body
We Remember
Hail Mary, Gentle Woman
We are the Light of the World
Pan de Vida
City of God
Ven al Banquete/Come to the Feast
Alabare

I realize this is a rather long list, but I’m sure that there are some other hymns that are worse.

This list, among a few others, WAS church music for me growing up in the 80s and 90s. I don’t think it’s all that bad, but having broadened my horizons as an adult, I believe chant, polyphony, etc. is way, way better for liturgical music.

 

[benedictgal]

My sister, Benedictgal, please cite for me, word for word, which Spanish text of the Gloria or Agnus Dei to which you refer.

You are right that some of the settings don’t use a direct translation from the original Latin, and instead are intended to fit a melodic structure, but this is not true in every case.

Please cite precisely which setting to which you refer. I have the lingering suspicion that you don’t have enough of a familiarity with the Spanish language to say this is true for yourself. I almost feel you are taking second-hand information on this point.

At any rate, it is exactly this type of manipulation of the text that the Bishops are reviewing, right? Absent of any specific guidelines, composers will take certain liberties. Some of them even feel they are accurately presenting the texts.

Pope Benedict XVI has repeatedly said that we are not called to be “creative” during the Liturgy. We are called to receive.

Here is the Gloria in Spanish

Gloria al Senor, que reina en los cielos, y en la tierra paz a los hombres que ama El.

Senor te alabamos. Senor te bendecimos. Todos te adoramos, gracias por tu gloria.

Gloria al Senor…

Tu eres el cordero, que quitas el pecado. Ten piedad de nosotros y escucha nuetra oracion.

Gloria al Senor…

Tu solo eres Santo. Tu solo el Altissimo. Con el Espiritu Santo en la Gloria de Dios Padre.

Gloria al Senor…

Notice how significant chunks of the Gloria are missing? And OCP submits this for usage during the Mass? This is not merely taking liberties with the texts. It’s downright cosmetic surgery.

Now, here is the Agnus Dei:

Cordeo de Dios, que quitas el pecado del mundo
Ten piedad de nostros, (O Pan de Vida) danos la Paz
Ten piedad de nosotros, (O Pan de Vida) danos La Paz
Ten piedad de nosotros, (O Pan de Vida) danos La Paz

Have Mercy is supposed to be separate from Grant us Peace because these are two different petitions.

 

[lak611]

Here is the Gloria in Spanish

Gloria al Senor, que reina en los cielos, y en la tierra paz a los hombres que ama El.

Senor te alabamos. Senor te bendecimos. Todos te adoramos, gracias por tu gloria.

Gloria al Senor…

Tu eres el cordero, que quitas el pecado. Ten piedad de nosotros y escucha nuetra oracion.

Gloria al Senor…

Tu solo eres Santo. Tu solo el Altissimo. Con el Espiritu Santo en la Gloria de Dios Padre.

Gloria al Senor…

Is that all there is?

Notice how significant chunks of the Gloria are missing? And OCP submits this for usage during the Mass? This is not merely taking liberties with the texts. It’s downright cosmetic surgery.

Wow. A lot is missing.

Now, here is the Agnus Dei:

Cordeo de Dios, que quitas el pecado del mundo
Ten piedad de nostros, (O Pan de Vida) danos la Paz
Ten piedad de nosotros, (O Pan de Vida) danos La Paz
Ten piedad de nosotros, (O Pan de Vida) danos La Paz

Have Mercy is supposed to be separate from Grant us Peace because these are two different petitions.

Why is “Grant us peace” repeated three times?

 

[benedictgal]

Not bad. I commend them for their balance. I like most, but am surprised that among the Lenten hymns, “Draw Near O Lord” (Attende Domine) was not the first.

The article tried to have some balance, but the author should have interviewed someone from Musica Sacra, the Church Music Association of America. OCP was more concerned about the “feel good experience” and really showed very little understanding of the purpose of liturgical music.

The selection of hymns was certainly not balanced, as most of them, if not all, were written during the St. Louis Jesuits era, with one Protestant exception. At least Hail Mary, Gentle Woman was not included. I too, am disappointed that Attende Domine wasn’t eve listed.

 

[bluerose]

I went to a Sunday evening Mass a zillion years ago at a neighboring church. There was no organist, so the lector was leading the songs. The first one was familiar but odd, then the second was the same way. We finally realized he was singing the Marine Corps Hymn melody for every song. Yeah, it was pretty funny after that.

And my father-in-law (God rest his soul) who loved to sing, for some reason managed to sing every hymn to the tune of “Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow”.

Don’t know HOW he did that, but he did. I remember sitting in front of him at Mass, wondering HOW he managed to do it!

 

[daeve]

And my father-in-law (God rest his soul) who loved to sing, for some reason managed to sing every hymn to the tune of “Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow”.

Don’t know HOW he did that, but he did. I remember sitting in front of him at Mass, wondering HOW he managed to do it!

This fellow was in his 60s at the time, late 60s since I was still in high school. Maybe the two of them are together in heaven, singing their little confused lungs out.