non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[Winnie_Loke]

did you know that one of the calls of the reformation was “always reforming”? that means that we don’t just take what luther says as if he’s the pope, but we are constantly trying to seek the truth.

also, i love the quote from luther about venerating mary that you used. it is exactly what nearly every protestant would say. mary is in heaven and that’s all we know about it so we shouldn’t make an article of faith of it.

It’s alright for Protestants to seek the truth constantly, in fact, that’s what we all should do. However, I realize that a lot of Protestant churches (especially the evangelical ones) are constantly splitting, the schism never ends. Since everyone of them believes they have their own “hotline” to God, they know better about the truth than others, this is how division begins. They’re constantly seeking their the truth and yet they don’t know how to deal with their own pride.

 

[LutheranDK]

So by calling St. James Epistle an “Epistle of Straw”, was that Scripture infallible to Luther also?

I would like to know excactly where Luther has said that?

Anyway - Luther COULD have edited James and Revalations (which he also had a problem with), but did not. Out of respect for Scripture, and out of the conviction that God knew better than he did, what belonged in canon and what did not…

 

[SiempreFiel]

The undivided Church never looked to the bishop of Rome as the infallible supreme pontiff—never!

WRONG!!!

Ephraim of Syria
[As if spoken by Jesus:] Simon my follower, I have made you the foundation of My holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of all who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which My teaching flows, you are the chief of My disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is the life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in My institution, and so that, as the heir, you may be the executor of all My treasures. I have given you the keys of My Kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all My treasures!
To whom, O Lord, didst Thou entrust that most precious pledge of the heavenly keys? To Bar Jonas, the Prince of the Apostles, with whom, I implore Thee, may I share Thy bridal chamber…
Our Lord chose Simon Peter and appointed him chief of the Apostles, foundation of the holy Church and guardian of His establishment. He appointed him head of the Apostles and commanded him to feed His flock and teach it laws for preserving the purity of its beliefs.

*Mar Abdisho of Soba
“To the Great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid [in the grave] there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs.” (Memra 9; Risha 1) Furthermore, Abdisho asserts “. . . . And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema.” (Memra 9; Risha 8).

*(Note) Mar Abdisho of Soba came after the Great Schism.

 

[climer97007]

All bishops were equal and the bishop of Rome had a position of respect and honour. It was always that way.

Just because it looks a certain way to you now, does not mean that it has always been the way you see it.

It can be said that all Bishops are equal today, and it would be a true statement. The Bishop of Rome has no greater authority in a real sense than any other Bishop.

But, there is a very real and practical difference.

To see what I mean, consider a local case. In Portland, Oregon, we have an Arch Bishop and an Auxilliary Bishop. Each Bishop is equal, though the Arch Bishop obviously has day to day responsibilities and oversight that the Auxilliary Bishop does not.

Even so, when the Arch Bishop is gone, the Auxilliary Bishop acts in the place of the Arch Bishop with full authority within the Arch Diocese.

But, out of love, honor and respect, he yields to the Arch Bishop whenever the Arch Bishop is here.

It is much the same with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Righteousone]

I would like to know excactly where Luther has said that?

Anyway - Luther COULD have edited James and Revalations (which he also had a problem with), but did not. Out of respect for Scripture, and out of the conviction that God knew better than he did, what belonged in canon and what did not…

Either you are in terrible denial here , or you are agreeing with this man Luther who tore apart the Catholic church. Not only did he throw out the Epistle of St. James, but he also dishonored the Epistle of St. Jude and the Epistle to the Hebrews and the beautiful Apocolypse of St. John, declaring they were not on the same footing as the rest of the books, and did not contain the full amount of Gospel (i.e., his Gospel).
The presumptious way in which Luther, among others, poured contempt, and doubt upon some of the inspired writings which had been acknowledged and cherished and venerated for 1000 or 1000 years would be scarcely credible were it not that we have HIS VERY WORDS in cold print, WHICH CANNOT LIE, and may be read in his biography, or can be seen as quoted in Dr. Westcott’s ‘The bible in the Church’.
And why did he impugn such books? Because they did not suit his new doctrines and opinions. He had arrived at the principal of private judgement. Of picking and choosing religious doctrines ; and whenever any book, such as the Book of Maccabees, taught a doctrine that was repugnant to his individual taste–as for example, that ‘it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins’, 2 Mach.xii., 46–well, so much for the worse for the book, ‘throw it overboard’, was his sentence, and overboard it went.

 

[Protestant101]

You know, even though I’m a Catholic myself I’ve always been debating about some teachings of the Catholic church. And the points brought up by East Anglican in Page 5 seem to cover many of them. You see…

Yup. I do believe it’s written in Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” And if anyone says that it gives permission to go on sinning because we have received the saving Grace, just read John 14:12 - Jesus said “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.” That covers the fact that we can’t go on sinning and believe that we will still go to heaven when we die. Besides, Romans 3:20 says “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.” So what I don’t get is why isn’t honest repentance when we do slip up and sin (I admit, I’m not perfect and I do sin no matter how I try not to!) addressed to God in our prayer enough?

I’m still not convinced of purgatory. The Bible verses that are quoted to support it sounds just too loose to me. They don’t give any solid view into whether there is purgatory or not! Especially if you take the context of the chapter and not just the verse.

EXACTLY!!! Why pray through Mary or Saints! If by Jesus’ death and resurrection we have been given the priviledge of calling God, “Father”, why do we need to pray through third parties?

I personally believe that the body and blood of Jesus is present in the bread and wine together with the bread and wine. Where is it written that it turns solely to flesh and blood?

True. I do agree that there are many “protestant” churches that hold beliefs that go against Scriptural teaching. But does that mean ALL Protestant churches teach dross? I think we Catholics need to learn to get off the Lord’s judgement chair - because judgement is His. And the Bible says in Romans 3:23 that “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. So who made you all so righteous, my Catholic brothers and sisters?

As a reply to this ChristianRoots had written on page 5 of this thread, "The reason why there were no written references to these beliefs in early Church history was because no one was challenging them at that time. Only when there was a challenge to a particular belief did the Church feel compelled to define it in more dogmatic terms." If that’s so, why does the Catholic Church base beliefs such as the Assumption of Mary on treatises like the “De Obitu S. Dominae”? Where did that come from? And please don’t try to fly that “just because it’s not written in the Bible doesn’t mean it didn’t happen” argument. If you believed that you have to agree to the DaVinci theory about Jesus and Mary Magdalene being married (I mean according to that argument, just because it’s not written in the Bible that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married doesn’t mean that they weren’t either, does it?)

The idea of Mary being the co-redemptrix sounds like blasphemy to me - sharing the glory due to God (and JESUS IS GOD!) with another person, however “holy”!?! CentralFLJames said “If Mary had not consented to the incarnation Jesus would not have been able to do anything through a channel of freewill without God abusing and brutalizing us to save us against our consent.” See, that’s assuming that we can understang what all God can do! We can’t, which means that we can’t be so sure that God wouldn’t have been able to give us salvation if Mary hadn’t agreed to the plan.

Hello Shanisaurus

I found your post interesting to read - you don’t really talk like a typical Catholic though.

I was wondering if you could tell me what version of Bible you used in your post, especially re the texts in Ephesians? I would appreciate knowing that.

I do think that you are on the right track re your comments about Mary and Purgatory. Even if I didn’t view it as what some call “soul sleep;” I would have a lot of trouble with the idea of Purgatory.

I would encourage you to keep studying your Bible as you have been. It is "the way, the truth, and the life; for in it we “see Jesus.” How can anyone go wrong with that?

 

[climer97007]

Why pray through Mary or Saints! If by Jesus’ death and resurrection we have been given the priviledge of calling God, “Father”, why do we need to pray through third parties?

I personally believe that the body and blood of Jesus is present in the bread and wine together with the bread and wine. Where is it written that it turns solely to flesh and blood?

Why talk to the Kings mother when you can go directly to Him? Hmmm, let’s look at scripture. In the old testament, the King’s Queen was always his mother. If you were on the Kings bad side, you approached him first through his mother. You would be seeking her influence with the King. It is just like King Solomon in the old testament and Bathsheba, his Queen mother. When a guy was afraid the King was going to kill him, the guy first talked with the King’s mother, hoping she would have enough influence over the King to save his life.

If you need to approach Jesus, and you have egg all over your face, you might want to approach Mary first. Scripture says that the prayer of a rightious person is useful. There are non more righteous in Heaven than Mary save God Himself.

Gene

 

[Protestant101]

Why talk to the Kings mother when you can go directly to Him? Hmmm, let’s look at scripture. In the old testament, the King’s Queen was always his mother. If you were on the Kings bad side, you approached him first through his mother. You would be seeking her influence with the King. It is just like King Solomon in the old testament and Bathsheba, his Queen mother. When a guy was afraid the King was going to kill him, the guy first talked with the King’s mother, hoping she would have enough influence over the King to save his life.

If you need to approach Jesus, and you have egg all over your face, you might want to approach Mary first. Scripture says that the prayer of a rightious person is useful. There are non more righteous in Heaven than Mary save God Himself.

Gene

Well; we are not afraid that Jesus is going to kill us for one thing. Besides, Mary is dead. I talk to a living God - One called Jesus.

 

[ChristianRoots]

Well; we are not afraid that Jesus is going to kill us for one thing. Besides, Mary is dead. I talk to a living God - One called Jesus.

Mary is “dead?”
Mk. 12:26-27 …how God said to him [Moses] “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob?” He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

 

[Mickey]

Ephraim of Syrian

Your quotes relay respect and honor for the bishop of Rome, not a universal ruling supreme infallible pontiff.

 

[Mickey]

Because the early church and church fathers’ writings had been warped to suit the benefit of the Roman church. It was not the early church, or the Fathers, themselves that Luther took affront to, rather; it was what the Roman church had misused them for. On the contrary - he often referred to them in apologetics, and relied HEAVILY on Augustine.

Do you have some proof of this warping? I am Orthodox and we also look to Sacred Tradition and the witness of the early Church Fathers. But of course there are many areas where we differ from Rome. We do not rely too heavily on blessed Augustine. Perhaps we are on to something here.

 

[sandusky]

Mary is “dead?”

Of course she is; don’t be silly.

ChristianRoots:

Mk. 12:26-27 …how God said to him [Moses] “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob?” He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Then what is this thing that scripture speaks of, **The Resurrection of the Dead?****1 Corinthians 15:13

But if there is no resurrection of the dead,

not even Christ has been raised…**Mary, and everybody else better be dead…

 

[Mickey]

Mary, and everybody else better be dead…

Yet they are alive in Christ. They are more alive than you or I.

 

[East_Anglican]

Just curious on your take on this passage. Of course this is just one area of Scripture that points to a state or place after death other than Heaven or Hell. In Matthew 12:32 Jesus says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This implies that sins can be forgiven after death. If you are in Heaven, there is no need to have sins forgiven because you don’t have any in Heaven. If you are in Hell, it’s too late.

In the age to come is judgement day. Those who blaspheme against The Holy Spirit, Jesus will say he never knew.

purgatory can not be backed up by scripture how ever hard you try.

 

[East_Anglican]

Exactly! All bishops were equal and the bishop of Rome had a position of respect and honour. It was always that way.

Yes it was. The Pope has taken the place of the council. All bishops must submit to Rome. The bishop of Rome is the supreme pontiff. It did not look this way in the first millenium.
The semantics for clarification explanation never went over well with the Holy Orthodox Church.

Also as the bishop of Rome, he had no authority outside. his diocese. Which is what anoyed The Orthodox and later annoyed The protestants. He hadn’t even a province, just a diocese.

 

[East_Anglican]

WRONG!!!

Ephraim of Syria
[As if spoken by Jesus:] Simon my follower, I have made you the foundation of My holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of all who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which My teaching flows, you are the chief of My disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is the life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in My institution, and so that, as the heir, you may be the executor of all My treasures. I have given you the keys of My Kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all My treasures!
To whom, O Lord, didst Thou entrust that most precious pledge of the heavenly keys? To Bar Jonas, the Prince of the Apostles, with whom, I implore Thee, may I share Thy bridal chamber…
Our Lord chose Simon Peter and appointed him chief of the Apostles, foundation of the holy Church and guardian of His establishment. He appointed him head of the Apostles and commanded him to feed His flock and teach it laws for preserving the purity of its beliefs.

Not Scripture. Scripture says that Jesus said he (Jesus himself) would build his Church for a start. Peter mor Petros means stione and Petra means Bed Rock. The Bed Rock is the revelation revealed from Heaven. THe revelation that Jesus is Thje Christ, The Son of God is the foundation (Bed Rock) of Christian Theology.

Ephraim of Syria here could not be in the canon of scripture because he’s speaking apocryphal nonsense. As The Gospel of Mathew is an eye witness account, what Matthew says Jesus said is more likely.

*Mar Abdisho of Soba
“To the Great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid [in the grave] there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs.” (Memra 9; Risha 1) Furthermore, Abdisho asserts “. . . . And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema.” (Memra 9; Risha 8).

*(Note) Mar Abdisho of Soba came after the Great Schism.

What’s that?

It sounds like some balderdash from The Koran?

 

[East_Anglican]

Either you are in terrible denial here , or you are agreeing with this man Luther who tore apart the Catholic church. Not only did he throw out the Epistle of St. James, but he also dishonored the Epistle of St. Jude and the Epistle to the Hebrews and the beautiful Apocolypse of St. John, declaring they were not on the same footing as the rest of the books, and did not contain the full amount of Gospel (i.e., his Gospel).

Source please!

And why did he impugn such books? Because they did not suit his new doctrines and opinions. He had arrived at the principal of private judgement. Of picking and choosing religious doctrines ; and whenever any book, such as the Book of Maccabees, taught a doctrine that was repugnant to his individual taste–as for example, that ‘it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins’, 2 Mach.xii., 46–well, so much for the worse for the book, ‘throw it overboard’, was his sentence, and overboard it went.

If 2 Mach 12:46 backs up the idea of purgatory, it probably backs up the idea that Elvis is alive too.

 

[Tomster]

In the age to come is judgement day. Those who blaspheme against The Holy Spirit, Jesus will say he never knew.

purgatory can not be backed up by scripture how ever hard you try.

It is intersting to note, though, that Anglicanism has departed from Protestantism in this area. In the thirty-nine articles the teaching on purgatory is “The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory,” says article 22, “is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.” Yet now Anglicanism allows belief in “purgatory (for) those whose enjoyment of God is not lessened by any defect in themselves, but it is not the full consummation in which the whole creation participates.” This attitude is fully sanctioned by the Prayers for the Dead in the revised (1928) American Book of Common Prayers, e.g., “O God, whose mercies cannot be numbered; Accept our prayers on behalf of the soul of thy servant, and grant him (her) an entrance into the land of light and joy, in the fellowship of thy saints.”

 

[Mickey]

“O God, whose mercies cannot be numbered; Accept our prayers on behalf of the soul of thy servant, and grant him (her) an entrance into the land of light and joy, in the fellowship of thy saints.”

The Orthodox also pray for the dead without adherence to the odd doctrine of purgatory.

 

[Lampo]

In the age to come is judgement day. Those who blaspheme against The Holy Spirit, Jesus will say he never knew.

purgatory can not be backed up by scripture how ever hard you try.

Particular Judgment or General Judgment? Is it after death? Are you suggesting souls are somewhere besides Heaven or Hell at “Judgment Day?” Where is this place?

Actually, purgatory can be backed up quite convincingly with Scripture. Would you like to see other passages that suggest purgatory?