non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[Mickey]

I Here you are free to disagree with the interpretation of the doctrine but are not free slander the person.

Did you think I was referring to you?

 

[East_Anglican]

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

Our works are as filthy rags, they can not save us, outr sin is burnt off us by his love, not Purgatory.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

You what?

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

If you are not saved you go to Hell being saved is being snatched from Hell.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

You are really twisting stufff here.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

I know I’ve answered two from the deutro canon already, but as The Old Testament Church didn’t recognise them as scripture, I don’t feel the need to either.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Metaphor.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

Purification is not Purgation.

Nice try Lampo.

 

[Mickey]

We are made perfect through Christ not through Purgatory.

God bless you for your patience in answering these claims. You are a better man than I.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[East_Anglican]

This is not true EA. Most saints and pious are delivered either straight to heaven or spend only a short time in purgatory - some as few as minutes we are told (but it is intense). We rarely know for sure when a soul is progressed - but there are many many saintly accounts of visitations from those in purgatory to those given the Charism to see these souls. These accounts give us specific examples of when certain souls were released. There are also very sobering accounts that many souls must stay in purgatory till the end of time unless somone prays for them.

How do you know this? How can anyone know it? It’s mere speculation on a made up doctrine.

 

[Righteousone]

How do you know this? How can anyone know it? It’s mere speculation on a made up doctrine.

Aside from purgatory being in Scripture (Maccabees), Jesus also said you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven unclean. What do you suppose he meant by that then?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Is that in the catechism?

The passage about the thief is very important actually and tells us why one can not read something just literally and “get it all”. The forgiveness of the thief teaches us a profound concept called “Baptism of Desire”. All Christians believe from scripture that we must be baptised before we can enter heaven. We trust Jesus at His word that this theif is NOT going to hell. But he is not baptised so how is that possible? Answer: “Baptism of Desire”. So Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly. (cf. Catechism, 1260

The Church does not always have an official detailed position on all deeper meaning of scripture. Let me dig around some and see if I can find you more info if really interested. Are you?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

How do you know this? How can anyone know it? It’s mere speculation on a made up doctrine.

This is not doctrine - these are private saintly accounts that Catholics are permitted to take in faith at our option. I have studied them extensively and take many in faith. If you don’t want to accept them that is your prerogative since they are not necessary for your salvation. But there is a lot more to being a Christian than just Baptism and singing a few hymns in Church on Sunday morning. I think getting a bit more depth in scripture and in spiritual discernment would really motive you to get immersed in what a treasure of insight the Catholic Church has to offer.

Did you not trust Jesus when He said: “I have many more things to tell you, but you can’t bear them all now. Continue to remain in me as the branch remains in the vine, and I will be with you always.” ?

This was a promise of much more to come as the fruits of the Holy Spirit were born and The Church developed more and greater understandings and revelations.

James

 

[Mickey]

The passage about the thief is very important actually and tells us why one can not read something just literally and “get it all”.

You did not answer my question. Where is it written that the good thief goes to an upper part of purgatory?

 

[climer97007]

Do not worry about strange words and human definitions. It is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Human words cannot describe this great mystery.

You are using human words. Your human words convey an understanding. I am using human words as well, and my human words convey a very different understanding.

In other human words, what I hear you saying with your human words, is that you can not defend your belief in Consubstantiation using mere human words, so you will simply refer to it as being a mystery beyond the comprehension of the rest of us mere Catholic mortals, while you understand it infallibly as an inexplicable mystery.

Do I have that about right?

Gene

 

[Mickey]

Do I have that about right?

No.
Holy Orthodox does not recognize strange definitions that attempt to scientifically explain a glorious mystery. Transubstantiation is alien to us. Consubstantiation is alien to us. Scripture tells us it is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That is good enough for us. Period.

Understand?

 

[SiempreFiel]

Your quotes relay respect and honor for the bishop of Rome, not a universal ruling supreme infallible pontiff.

That is not true my friend.

The quotes I provided clearly and convincingly corroborate papal authority.

I must admit, however, that I cannot force you to look at the quotes from an unbiased perspective.

Papal supremacy is clearly found in Scripture and Holy Tradition.

 

[Mickey]

The quotes I provided clearly and convincingly corroborate papal authority.

respect and primacy. Not supremacy and infallibility.

I must admit, however, that I cannot force you to look at the quotes from an unbiased perspective.

But it is you my friend, who must open his eyes. Shed your prejudice. The Church never knew this innovative doctrine until 1870! :banghead:

Papal supremacy is clearly found in Scripture and Holy Tradition.

Nope.

 

[khutcheson]

No.
Holy Orthodox does not recognize strange definitions that attempt to scientifically explain a glorious mystery. Transubstantiation is alien to us. Consubstantiation is alien to us. Scripture tells us it is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That is good enough for us. Period.

Understand?

Yes!

Well said.

 

[abcd]

Oh, but he is in some way, since your church with Protestanism only could start with Luther in the 1500’s, followed by King Henry…bottom line is , your religion is not from Christ.

There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ—Mother Teresa >>>>

Yes, Teresa did say that and she also believed that no matter what God you followed you are saved. She said this in her own book, “Life in the Spirit”

 

[climer97007]

We are made perfect through Christ not through Purgatory.

So, finally, we can see the root of the issue for you. You think that purgatory has nothing to do with the Christ!

As long as you cling to this misunderstanding of Catholic teaching, you will never know of the true glory of the simple teaching concerning purgatory.

Purgatory is nothing other than our exoperience of the effects of the fire of God’s Love for us after our earlthy life comes to an end. To struggle against purgatorial fire of God’s Love is pointless, other than to continmue to point out your ignorance and lack of acceptance of the simple loving truth.

You don’t have to live in ignorance. You don’t have to continue in a stubbron rebellion.

Gene

 

[climer97007]

No.
Holy Orthodox does not recognize strange definitions that attempt to scientifically explain a glorious mystery. Transubstantiation is alien to us. Consubstantiation is alien to us. Scripture tells us it is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That is good enough for us. Period.

Understand?

Great. I am glad that you have an Orthodox understanding of the Body and Blood of Christ.

My original post was for East Anglican, who was making a statement about Consubstantiation. Perhaps your statement will be sufficient for him, though I doubt it.

I have the impression that he needs a deeper understanding to move beyond where he is at this point. Calling it an inexplicable mystery may not be very helpful. God is calling him to move beyond where he is now.

Gene

 

[LutheranDK]

Either you are in terrible denial here , or you are agreeing with this man Luther who tore apart the Catholic church. Not only did he throw out the Epistle of St. James, but he also dishonored the Epistle of St. Jude and the Epistle to the Hebrews and the beautiful Apocolypse of St. John, declaring they were not on the same footing as the rest of the books, and did not contain the full amount of Gospel (i.e., his Gospel).
The presumptious way in which Luther, among others, poured contempt, and doubt upon some of the inspired writings which had been acknowledged and cherished and venerated for 1000 or 1000 years would be scarcely credible were it not that we have HIS VERY WORDS in cold print, WHICH CANNOT LIE, and may be read in his biography, or can be seen as quoted in Dr. Westcott’s ‘The bible in the Church’.
And why did he impugn such books? Because they did not suit his new doctrines and opinions. He had arrived at the principal of private judgement. Of picking and choosing religious doctrines ; and whenever any book, such as the Book of Maccabees, taught a doctrine that was repugnant to his individual taste–as for example, that ‘it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins’, 2 Mach.xii., 46–well, so much for the worse for the book, ‘throw it overboard’, was his sentence, and overboard it went.

Please DOCUMENT that what you’re claiming is true. I can’t just take your word for it. So tell me WHERE Luther said this. I do not deny that he did, because I cannot.
Neither is it relevant. Because the NT that Lutheran churches use today is EXACTLY the same as the Nicean canon.
What Luther rediscovered were not new doctrines and opinions. It was the closest we can come to the original message of the Apostles - not yet warped by the Roman church because of medieval politics and lust for power.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You did not answer my question. Where is it written that the good thief goes to an upper part of purgatory?

First I want to correct an error I made in my original reply to you. The gates of heaven were opened on the day of Jesus’ death not on the day he rose from the dead.

Secondly I want to say that the Catholic Church does not have a specific teaching in this area in the way I described it. This is more of a private and personal exegesis and a model of thought to help some get up to speed on the general idea. “Paradise” is taught as state of existence seperate from the beatific vision - so it is not fully “heaven” in the sense that we conceptualize it. Nor is it really purgatory - since purgatory is more a spiritual state of being and preparation than it is a “place” with space-time aspects. There is a spiritual ‘relationship’ however to that purgatorial state and to our own existence in space-time that is real. For God 1 day is as a thousand years and vice versa. So as we exist in our time-space we can relate to these souls through prayer and benefit them as God judges fit.

If the central issue for you is lack of believe in purgatory and you want to follow a consensus rule formula then start counting numbers. Count Catholic then add the Eastern Orthodox since they believe it too. It soon becomes apparent that three quarters of Christianity accepts the doctrine of purgatory. Protestants, in all their various and contradictory sects, churches, and denominations, constitute less than one quarter of those who profess to be Christians in the world (‘not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter into my Kingdom’). So you need to first of all recognize that you are in a minority opinion among fellow Christians. Then you need to recognize that the burden of proof is on you to convince the majority of the Christian Church why you are out of step with the rest of it.

Although the word “purgatory” is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there. The words “Trinity” and “incarnation” and “Bible” are not mentioned in the Bible, but these realities are revealed there. Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life “through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). Saint Peter speaks of the “spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel “preached to the dead” (1 Peter 4:6). The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.

All that said I really don’t think you came here to learn about purgatory and you are really wasting my precious and limited time - stealing my life through insincerity. What you really came here to do is mock Catholic theology and the truths we know to be true.

This disingenousness is very spiritually dangerous for you. So I want to point out to you something. If you try to argue a Catholic out of his belief in purgatory you are essentially working to entice him to commit what we consider a mortal sin in God’s eyes. This is taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (numbers 1030-1032). Read about heresy in the same book(number 2089). We are required to belive this and we do so since we know it is true or we would not be Catholic. Also, whether you admit it or accept it or not all those calling themselves Christians are subordinate to The Pope; just as all men whether they admit it or not are subject to Jesus. The Pope is Christ’s Vicar whether or not you accept him or Christ. Take heed.

We Catholics, who are in possession of God’s Truth are held to a much higher standard that those of you who hold a fractional or primitive/fundamental truth. "To much that has been given much is expected’. But we Catholics in these kinds of forums must also accept the sobering reality that ‘whoever causes one of these little ones [non-Catholics such as you] who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck’. So by even sharing my faith with insincere Protestants in these forums I put myself at serious spiritual risk here if you lose heart and abandon Christian teaching all-together as a result of what I say. In essence I am putting my neck out for you and each apologist does so any time we speak. But God demands we try to teach. So try to be respectful of that reality that all us Catholics face.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

God expects more of Catholics since we have full access to His extraordinary grace present through The Church. Since we have more opportunity to avail ourselves of grace we also can more easily attain a much higher order salvation and reward in heaven than most non-Catholics. Most non-Catholics that do make it to heaven are unable to advance and improve spiritually past their baptismal levels of perfection without extraordinary pious acts (martyrdom, devout prayer, fasting, bringing non-believers to Christ etc.) .

What I am saying here is that your fundamentalist force of argument could be responsible for sending a Catholic to Hell if you make him fall away from his faith by abandoning core beliefs. I have to now tell you in truth that if that happens God’s justice may very well hold you personally accountable for that grave sin. Now that you know this you no longer can plead ignorance or escape through the Catholic doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.

So going forward, the more you argue against Catholic teaching the more you risk endangering your own soul as you drive people away from Catholic Teaching. Given this, I suggest that you change your attitude and start asking and conversing more from a spirit of understanding than from a spirit of trying to convince a Catholic to leave his teaching and come to your perspective.

James

 

[LutheranDK]

Aside from purgatory being in Scripture (Maccabees), Jesus also said you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven unclean. What do you suppose he meant by that then?

1: Maccabees are NOT Scripture!

2: Jesus meant what he said. What of it? He is unclean, who is an infidel. A true Christian is clean (justified) by faith.