non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[onenow1]

Hi,
Justasking>Where did Jesus Himself teach about purgatory?

OneNow1> We must look at purgatory from God’s perspective, not our finite pespective. I like to look at it like this, we are a new creation in Jesus, all of us have some erroneous beliefs of God’s teaching, none of us are perfect, for justice to be done some kind of purging must be necessary. Time is not in God’s eternal existance so if we are to enter into that eternity with God, justice must come before perfection.

Revelation 22:14 shows that there will be a cleansing before admission to the tree of life and entrance through the gates of the city. Where will all of this happen if not in a third place?

In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place.

These are the words of the Lord told by Peter and John.:twocents:

Peace, OneNow1

 

[Lampo]

Great. Here is 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

It appears this is talking about the “end times.” This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.(567) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 673)

Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.(573) The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth(574) will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.(575) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 675)

Since this is in reference to the “end time”, I would investigate more what the Church teaches on this. But since this was just a “test” so to speak, I will not do that now.

 

[Lampo]

It should really be the other way around.

According to whom? And before you say “according to the Bible”, let me go ahead and ask: According to your fallible interpretation of it?

 

[justasking4]

It appears this is talking about the “end times.” This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.(567) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 673)

Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.(573) The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth(574) will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.(575) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 675)

Since this is in reference to the “end time”, I would investigate more what the Church teaches on this. But since this was just a “test” so to speak, I will not do that now.

About your comments above: are they an infallible interpretation?

 

[Lampo]

About your comments above: are they an infallible interpretation?

I never argue anything that is outside of Church teaching. And, since the Church teaches infallibly, I can argue that all of the doctrines and dogmas that I put forth, are indeed infallible.

 

[guanophore]

It should really be the other way around. Catholics should be free to read and interpret Scripture for themselves in the light of Church Teaching as long as Church Teaching doesn’t contradict Scripture.

I agree with you in the case of most ecclesiastical communities. Those who have abandoned the Apostolic Succession have lost the gift of infallibility, so there is no guarantee to be without error.

 

[guanophore]

Then you would have to admit that for much of the scriptures you have no way to know if your own personal interpretation of them is correct if your church has never interpreted them in light of church teachings.

Any personal interpretation is permitted, so long as it does not contradict the Church teachings.

The other problem you have with this approach is that when we look at those verses used to support church doctrines in many cases are actually twisting the scriptures to say things that they don’t in context. Mary being without sin and celibate leadership are just 2 of many examples.

The doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness comes primarily from Sacred Tradition. There is very little biblical grounding for this.

There is no doctrine of “celibate leadership” in the Catholic Church. To assert this, when you have been repeatedly corrected on it so many times, is bearing false witness against your neighbor. CAF is not a platform for you to spread lies, ja4. The purpose of the forum is to answer quesions about what Catholics believe, and why.

 

[Lampo]

I think St. Augustine sums things up quite nicely:

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”
The Advantage of Believing, 391 A.D.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I think St. Augustine sums things up quite nicely:

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”
The Advantage of Believing, 391 A.D.

And this was stated more than one hundred years before - “The 27 books of the New Testament are in general acceptance in the Latin and Greek Churches.” (500 CE - here). 1100 years before any Protestant religion and 1200 years before the advent of the printing press.

 

[guanophore]

There is no indication that He did up to the present time. Oral teachings would have worked well in the Jewish culture of the time but not outside of it.

Really?! What makes you say that? Do you realize that all of the first Christians were Jews, and that most of the second generation were also Jews? Do you realize that Jesus prepared the Jews by the custom of preserving Sacred Oral Tradition to receive the Gospel? They understood how to preserve the Oracles of God!

Secondly, oral teachings are easily corrupted while its far more difficult to corrupt something that is written.

Only if you are playing children’s games, and if you do not trust God to watch over His word to perform it. You still have not answered how the stories of Adam and Eve and Abraham got to Moses, so He could write them down!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Secondly, oral teachings are easily corrupted while its far more difficult to corrupt something that is written.

You sound like you are trying to tell God how to convey and protect His own word. A think a good case could be made for oral tradition being less susceptible to corruption since co-incident with the printing press and wide-scale publishing of the bible Protestants have managed to mangle the written word so much that they have found things written bible that no one else sees (e.g. sola sciptura, sola fide, OSAS etc.).

James

 

[submittedjoy]

all of us have some erroneous beliefs of God’s teaching, none of us are perfect, for justice to be done some kind of purging must be necessary. Time is not in God’s eternal existance so if we are to enter into that eternity with God, justice must come before perfection.

Amen! Justice must be done…

Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death

Revelation 22:14 shows that there will be a cleansing before admission to the tree of life and entrance through the gates of the city. Where will all of this happen if not in a third place?

Here is the verse mentioned:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Cleansing isn’t mentioned… keeping his commandments are. Are his commandments grievous? No

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

What are the commandments mentioned? Well…

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is this all we have to do to inherit eternal life? ** No…** We must be born again.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

We must believe.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

We must repent.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, **Repent: **for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

We must be cleansed… Yes…

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of **Jesus Christ **his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

These verses and many more are what is meant by Revelations 22:14. It has nothing to do with suffering in purgatory.

Why would we need to suffer for our sins when Jesus already paid the price once and for all for us?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might** bring us to God**, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from **all **iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place.

It is my belief (my own opinion) that the “spirits” that Jesus preached to were the souls that had died under the 1st covenant. Those who had lived and died from the beginning until the time of Christ.

Why do I believe this? Because the Bible is True… God is true and righteous… and according to this verse…

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: **no man **cometh unto the Father, but by me.

They had never heard of Jesus before. They knew understood nothing about the cross or the “lamb” of God that taketh away the sins of the world. All they knew was their rituals and ordinances. They knew nothing of Grace.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If God is true to his Word (and of course he is) then they had to hear the Good News of the Gospel too. I believe this is also when Jesus took away the keys from Satan.

There is NOTHING we can do to earn our salvation and entrance into Heaven.

To believe and/or teach that anything else but the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin,

whether it be good works, (although good works comes natual for a Christian it doesn’t do anything in the way of cleansing from sin)

suffering in this life (doing penance)

sacraments,

time in purgatory…etc.

Giving financially to the church or the like…

If one believes or teachs any of these things, or anything else, cleanses from sin… that belief or teaching borders on Blasphemy…

Why would I say such a thing?

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your **vain conversation **received by tradition from your fathers;

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Strong’s Hebrew & Greek Concordance has this to say about the following phrases…

“trodden under foot” Reject
“unholy thing” Common
“done despite” ** insulted**

What can wash away my sins?
Nothing but the BLOOD of JESUS…

 

[guanophore]

Amen! Justice must be done…

Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death

Here is the verse mentioned:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Cleansing isn’t mentioned… keeping his commandments are. Are his commandments grievous? No

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

What are the commandments mentioned? Well…

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is this all we have to do to inherit eternal life? ** No…** We must be born again.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

We must believe.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

We must repent.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, **Repent: **for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

We must be cleansed… Yes…

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of **Jesus Christ **his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

These verses and many more are what is meant by Revelations 22:14. It has nothing to do with suffering in purgatory.

Why would we need to suffer for our sins when Jesus already paid the price once and for all for us?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might** bring us to God**, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from **all **iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

It is my belief (my own opinion) that the “spirits” that Jesus preached to were the souls that had died under the 1st covenant. Those who had lived and died from the beginning until the time of Christ.

Why do I believe this? Because the Bible is True… God is true and righteous… and according to this verse…

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: **no man **cometh unto the Father, but by me.

They had never heard of Jesus before. They knew understood nothing about the cross or the “lamb” of God that taketh away the sins of the world. All they knew was their rituals and ordinances. They knew nothing of Grace.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If God is true to his Word (and of course he is) then they had to hear the Good News of the Gospel too. I believe this is also when Jesus took away the keys from Satan.

There is NOTHING we can do to earn our salvation and entrance into Heaven.

To believe and/or teach that anything else but the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin,

whether it be good works, (although good works comes natual for a Christian it doesn’t do anything in the way of cleansing from sin)

suffering in this life (doing penance)

sacraments,

time in purgatory…etc.

Giving financially to the church or the like…

If one believes or teachs any of these things, or anything else, cleanses from sin… that belief or teaching borders on Blasphemy…

Why would I say such a thing?

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your **vain conversation **received by tradition from your fathers;

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Strong’s Hebrew & Greek Concordance has this to say about the following phrases…

“trodden under foot” Reject
“unholy thing” Common
“done despite” ** insulted**

What can wash away my sins?
Nothing but the BLOOD of JESUS…

I am surprised you would use Hebrews to support your views, submittedjoy, since this was clearly written to believers who then fell away from grace. It is one of the main passages that refutes the doctrine of OSAS.

 

[submittedjoy]

I am surprised you would use Hebrews to support your views, submittedjoy, since this was clearly written to believers who then fell away from grace. It is one of the main passages that refutes the doctrine of OSAS.

I agree… I do not believe in the “once saved always saved” doctrine.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3445012]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no indication that He did up to the present time. Oral teachings would have worked well in the Jewish culture of the time but not outside of it.

guanophore
Really?! What makes you say that? Do you realize that all of the first Christians were Jews, and that most of the second generation were also Jews?

Yes. In Jewish culture of the 1st century memory played a very signifcant role in the life of a religious Jew. We see an example of this in Deuteronomy 6:6-9 where we see this command from Moses in regards to knowing the Law:
6 “These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.
7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8 “You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.
9 “You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

This clearly demonstrates how they were to memorize the scriptures and pass them on to their children.

If only Christians would take their own Scriptures with such dilgence.

Do you realize that Jesus prepared the Jews by the custom of preserving Sacred Oral Tradition to receive the Gospel? They understood how to preserve the Oracles of God!

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Secondly, oral teachings are easily corrupted while its far more difficult to corrupt something that is written.

guanophore
Only if you are playing children’s games, and if you do not trust God to watch over His word to perform it.

My point is that the Jews of this period and the OT period were a religious people who had a high degree of using memory to remember God’s word. I’m not at this point making my case from a supernatural perspective but one from the culture that had a great capacity to memorize.

You still have not answered how the stories of Adam and Eve and Abraham got to Moses, so He could write them down!

i thought i did awhile back. If were right about Moses being an educated man, he would have the capacity to search out these stories that could have been handed down orally and in writings. That is one possiblity. The other is that God Himself could have revealed these things supernaturally to him.

 

[submittedjoy]

I agree… I do not believe in the “once saved always saved” doctrine.

It is also one of my FAVORITE books of the Bible!

 

[justasking4]

I am surprised you would use Hebrews to support your views, submittedjoy, since this was clearly written to believers who then fell away from grace. It is one of the main passages that refutes the doctrine of OSAS.

What passage in Hebrews does this?

 

[Jimmy_B]

What does your church say is the nature of the apostasy?

Who the man of lawlessness is? Where is this “temple of God”?

**Question: “What does your church say is the nature of the apostasy?” **

Answer:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[

](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm)2089 *Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

2577 From this intimacy with the faithful God, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love,23 Moses drew strength and determination for his intercession. He does not pray for himself but for the people whom God made his own. Moses already intercedes for them during the battle with the Amalekites and prays to obtain healing for Miriam.24 But it is chiefly after their apostasy that Moses “stands in the breach” before God in order to save the people.25 The arguments of his prayer - for intercession is also a mysterious battle - will inspire the boldness of the great intercessors among the Jewish people and in the Church: God is love; he is therefore righteous and faithful; he cannot contradict himself; he must remember his marvelous deeds, since his glory is at stake, and he cannot forsake this people that bears his name.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

Also here -The Catholic Encyclopedia

Question:* "Who the man of lawlessness is? Where is this “temple of God”?*

Answer, here

3 [3b-5] This incomplete sentence (anacoluthon, 2 Thes 2:4

) recalls what the Thessalonians had already been taught, an apocalyptic scenario depicting, in terms borrowed especially from Daniel 11:36-37 and related verses, human self-assertiveness against God in the temple of God itself. The lawless one represents the climax of such activity in this account.

I hope this helps.

 

[justasking4]

Question: “What does your church say is the nature of the apostasy?”

Answer:

Also here -The Catholic Encyclopedia

Question:* "Who the man of lawlessness is? Where is this “temple of God”?*

Answer, here

I hope this helps.

Thanks-- i’ll take a look…

 

[Jimmy_B]

Thanks-- i’ll take a look…

Hi justaskin4,

If you want to find out what “Catholics believe”, much if it can be found in -
the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is one of the links that I posted for you.

Good Luck!