Non-Catholics on these boards...

[Panis_Angelicas]

Just bear in mind that Jesus climbed a really steep hill for you. Aren’t you willing to do the same for Him?

Pax Christi. <><

Lurker:

I’m not Catholic. Technically I’m a Presbyterian. But I hope to convert soon. Alas for me, the nearest Parish is up a REALLY steep hill and I’m lazy. Not a very good excuse but it’s the truth.

 

[STJOMO]

You won’t convert me to Christianity by telling me I’m going to hell unless I accept Jesus. That message only reinforces my choice to stay a non-Christian, in that I’m glad I haven’t caved in to blackmail. To convert me, you’ll have to show me how good Christianity is—how it’s something not of this world.

There’s no blackmail involved; our job is to share the Good News with you. If you choose to reject it, there is a price to be paid. It’s that simple.

That’s what free will is all about.

The road map to Heaven has been provided by Our Lord, and His Son has shown us the way.

There were pagans in Rome and Greece who refused to learn from Him. Your stance is nothing new. But Christ instructed His apostles – and, by extension, us – to spread the Good News to all nations.

The rest is up to you.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

STJOMO:

There’s no blackmail involved;

Yes there is. Not on your part, but on your God’s part.

our job is to share the Good News with you. If you choose to reject it, there is a price to be paid. It’s that simple.

Suppose a rich man tells a woman that she will live luxuriously with him if she marries him, but if she refuses, he’ll pull out a gun and shoot a bullet through her head. No blackmail involved? Her choice to reject it, there is just a price to be paid?

The rich man is God; the woman is every nonbeliever; the luxurious life is heaven; the bullet through the head is hell. Actually comparing the Christian hell to a bullet through the head doesn’t do it justice, because a bullet through the head lasts a split-second whereas hell is eternal torment.

 

[Britta]

It’s interesting that the word “blackmail” is being used. We are given choices and just because we don’t like those choices does not mean it’s blackmail. This perception is simply stubborn rebellion. Although, it’s nothing new, it started with Adam!

My daughter, who is 7, can be very stubborn and rebellious. She is constantly trying to figure out the rules through her actions. She looks to me for guidance because I’m her mother. Alternatively, I look to my Creator for the rules, afterall He created me and would know best.

When she was younger, I would tell my daughter not to play in the street because I knew the danger. If she chose not to listen to me, then I WOULD use discipline (or in her mind blackmail). At that time, she was too young to understand the consequences. But just because she didn’t understand does not mean it won’t happen.

Everyone knows smoking is unhealthy. We have many ads and information showing the negative consequences of it over the years. That is not blackmailing but stating a fact. If, when someone ignores it, chooses to smoke, and has a stroke, who can he blame?

There is a heaven and hell. There are ways to get to either one. The choice is ours. It’s a fact.

:tiphat:

 

[swampfox]

Ric:

You may claim that the Roman Catholic church is the only universal church in the world, but that does not make it so.

As Jesus said to Peter whose direct successor lives today in the person of Pope JPII–Upon this rock I will build my Church. To what man can you trace the origins of the church to which you belong?

 

[Lurker]

Panis Angelicas:

Just bear in mind that Jesus climbed a really steep hill for you. Aren’t you willing to do the same for Him?

Pax Christi. <><

hai hai!

I’ll do my best to make it to mass this Sunday.
Course, we’ll see how things go after Saturday. sigh

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Shari:

We are saved by God’s grace with faith working through love. No one is saved by faith or works.

As a Catholic, I agree that we are only saved by the grace of God. However, God gave us the gift of free will. He gave us the choice of loving Him or rejecting Him.

If we love Him we will do good works (of our own free will) and if we reject Him we will do bad works (of our own free will). We are all called to live as Christ did. Therefore, since Christ did not perform bad works, we are all called to do good works. This is having faith in what Christ has called us all to do.

 

[Shari]

Heathen Dawn:

You won’t convert me to Christianity by telling me I’m going to hell unless I accept Jesus. That message only reinforces my choice to stay a non-Christian, in that I’m glad I haven’t caved in to blackmail. To convert me, you’ll have to show me how good Christianity is—how it’s something not of this world.

(I’m a “he”, by the way)

Amen,
I understand how you feel, I too was turned off by language and the way people spoke. i.e. The catholic faith is the only true faith, you know things like that. I think we just need to lead by our actions and by living what we believe and not just doing lip service. I think on a board like this it is kind of hard because all we have is our words, and we are human and can take things wrong or not. Here there is no body language to look at and no tone of voice to hear. If we are all charitalbe in the way we write, and also thinking the best about the messages we recieve, that will be pretty close to what we need to be. Heathen Dawn you will be in my prayers(if that doesn’t offened you.)

 

[Shari]

Lurker:

hai hai!

I’ll do my best to make it to mass this Sunday.
Course, we’ll see how things go after Saturday. sigh

Lurker,
Your in my prayers. I too was in your shoes, kind of still am. I have to figure out how to tell my pastor from my presbyterian church that I am going to the Catholic churc. We were staying at the presbyterian church so the kids could finish out sunday school, thats done now, so I need to talk to him. So I can understand. God Bless you for being here and for choosing HIM you won’t be sorry.

 

[Shari]

Stylteralmaldo:

As a Catholic, I agree that we are only saved by the grace of God. However, God gave us the gift of free will. He gave us the choice of loving Him or rejecting Him.

If we love Him we will do good works (of our own free will) and if we reject Him we will do bad works (of our own free will). We are all called to live as Christ did. Therefore, since Christ did not perform bad works, we are all called to do good works. This is having faith in what Christ has called us all to do.

I agree 100% I wasn’t disputing that. I was just repeating what I heard on CA. The working through love is a work in itself.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Shari:

Heathen Dawn you will be in my prayers(if that doesn’t offened you.)

No, it doesn’t offend me. In fact, there was a thread on Christian Forums asking each member to state what religion they would be if they were not in their current religion, and I wrote “Catholic Christian.”

 

[Shari]

Pax:

I would suggest reading Hilaire Belloc’s classic book, The Great Heresies. The interesting thing about Belloc’s work is that he outlines many cultural, philosophical, social, and political forces that contributed heavily to the Reformation.

Pax have you ever read Triumph ,by I think C.W. Chesterton. I understand a lot of people here don’t like o’hares book, but triumph speaks of Luther and the reformation. And they are not pretty, especially some of the language he used. I haven’t read the whole book, but from what I have it shows Luther without even having to use o’hares book.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Ric:

Praise God!

I’ll stay with Jesus!

So will I. I receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of my dearly beloved Lord at every Mass. Can’t get much closer than that.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Heathen Dawn:

Suppose a rich man tells a woman that she will live luxuriously with him if she marries him, but if she refuses, he’ll pull out a gun and shoot a bullet through her head. No blackmail involved? Her choice to reject it, there is just a price to be paid?

The rich man is God; the woman is every nonbeliever; the luxurious life is heaven; the bullet through the head is hell. Actually comparing the Christian hell to a bullet through the head doesn’t do it justice, because a bullet through the head lasts a split-second whereas hell is eternal torment.

The rich man you are describing is not the God I know and love. My God does not force others to believe or else suffer the consequences.

I’m not sure if you have ever read the Bible or not, but I particularly like the parables (stories) that Jesus teaches.

One of my favorites is the Prodigal Son. I’ll sum it up for you:

There are two sons. One son did good and always did as his father told him to. The other son wasn’t always on the good side of the father. One day the “not-so-good” son asked the father for his share of the inheritance. The father gave it to him. That son went off and spent all of his inheritance and lived very badly.

Later on that son ran out of the inheritance given to him and decided to come back home - not because he necessarily wanted to get back into the good graces of his father but because he wanted to have a decent meal to eat. His plan was to go back and ask to be a hired hand.

The father saw his son approaching in the distance and ran out to greet him. He then went and had a party in his son’s honor.

Meanwhile, the “good” son heard the sounds of the party in the distance. As he approached his father’s house he came to realize that the party was in his brother’s honor.

The “good” son refused to enter the house. He felt underappreciated for all the good he had done and not once had a party been thrown for him. The father then came to plead with his “good” son. He told him that we should rejoice because once his brother was lost but now he is found.

The father is the God I know and love.
The “bad” son is someone who has fallen away from the faith and has decided to come home.
The “good” son is someone who claims to follow the father’s (God’s) will but fails to truly follow His example.

It is important to note that in the story it is never revealed whether the “good” son enters his father’s home (heaven?).

I hope this gives you a better picture of what it means to follow Christ.

 

[twf]

Ric, I noticed you never responded to my post. It’s on page 5. Again I highly recommend Dave Armstrong’s A Biblical Defence of Catholicism. You can get the .doc version, it’s easier. I was firmly convinced, after reading Dave’s chapter on justification that Luther’s teaching is completely out of accord with Scripture.
We are certainly saved by grace alone…but not by faith alone. I assume you agree that we must accept Christ through repentance and faith to be saved. If so, then you agree that humans must do something to be saved. Obviously we are not saved because of what we did (faith, repentance, acceptance) but because of Christ’s grace; however, we must co-operate with God and be willing to receive this grace. So far I assume you agree with me. Thus, you already believe that humans must do something to be saved, and as accepting and believing in Chris take effort (of will, mind, even if it is for a moment), it is, in a certain sense, a work. However, we can not take credit for our salvation, even though we must do something to receive it, as the Spirit gives us the grace to accept it in the first place.
Likewise, in Catholic theology, the grace given to us, which leads to true faith, inevitably, if we are co-operating with God’s plan of salvation, leads to good works, as the natural produce (fruit) of our grace-empowered faith. You see, if you are to say that human work (even works that are only made possible because of Christ’s grace) can not be part of our justification, then you must believe that all men will automatically be saved…because even in your view we must exert a certain degree of effort to be saved (accepting Christ and repenting). The works that we do have nothing to do with earning salvation, but they are part of our justification process, when they flow from grace. Because we are brought into God’s grace, the works that are produced by this grace become pleasing to God, and are our way of co-operating with God as He brings us to perfection. Dave explains this in much more detail in the book. In the next couple posts, I’ll be posting some Scriptures that support the importance of works in the salvation plan. Remember, we agree 100% that we are saved by grace alone, but rather than grace through faith, it is grace produces faith which produces works. Because of freewill, we must co-operate with God throughout the plan of salvation…in your view, freewill ceases to exist, in a sense, once you perform a single initial ‘work’ (the initial assent of faith).

 

[twf]

*21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ *
(Matthew 7:21-23, NIV®)

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
(John 14:15, ASV).
Good works flow naturally from faith. They two are inseparable.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
(John 15:10, ASV).

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? [NOTE: see belief is not enough by itself)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; [note: works perfect our initial faith…it is all part of the salvation process, God grants us the grace, from the work of Christ, to help us co-operate with His salvation plan)
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. [Note: We are saved through faith and works, not just faith alone, even though it is all because of grace alone)
25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:14-26, emphasis added).
This was is pretty clear to me. Protestants will often say that it just means that works are the natural outcome of true faith, so that if you do not have works, then you never had faith in the first place…but just read the passage, it seems pretty clear that James is saying that works are essential, yes they do flow from faith, but they are necessary as well, so that means they are part of the salvation process. Protestants also say that when James says you are not justified by faith alone, he means before men, not God (implying that faith alone justifies you before God), but why make that assumption? Paul never said we are saved only by faith, he said only by grace through faith…and true faith includes works. Is there any real reason to believe that when James says “justification“ he means something different than Paul?
Note: Works outside of grace do nothing for our salvation…these works are those that flow from the grace God has given us, they have nothing to do with earning salvation, but are steps in our road to perfection…they are the continuation of our decision to co-operate with God and receive His free gift of salvation/grace.*

 

[twf]

*“…for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” * (Ephesians 2:8-10). This famous verse, often used to refute the Catholic teaching, does not teach that we are saved by faith alone, it is only through faith that we are saved, that is the initial step, but that faith naturally leads to other works (faith without works is dead, remember). The Church teaches that sola gracia (by grace alone) is true, but not sola fide (faith alone). We can take no credit even for the works of charity we do…for they would be useless (in salvation) if not for God’s grace and if they do not flow from our grace-given faith.

Often when Paul talks about justification, he tells us that it is not by works…but we must remember that 1) We are not saved because of works, they are only the natural progression after faith and grace 2) Paul is often talking about the works of the Law that we no longer must complete…they can do nothing for our salvation. This is often the context, as a number of early Christians subscribed (or were influenced) to a heresy that taught that we should still abide by the Law of Moses. For instance, in Romans 3:20 Paul clearly says “works of the law”, not works of charity which flow from grace:* …because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.*

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples.
(John 15:1-8).
Keep in mind that fruit=good works that flow from grace-empowered faith

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, who would make a reckoning with his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, that owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not wherewith to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 And the lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, who owed him a hundred shillings: and he laid hold on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay what thou owest.
29 So his fellow-servant fell down and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay that which was due.
31 So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were exceeding sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me:
33 shouldest not thou also have had mercy on thy fellow-servant, even as I had mercy on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.
35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
(Matthew 18:23-35). This man was clearly ‘saved’ or justified initially (a Christian) but he didn’t forgive his brother…which is another work in a sense (though again, made possible by God’s grace). This is necessary, not just recommend.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(Matthew 6:14-15). Our Lord affirms here as well that it is necessary to forgive your brother.

 

[twf]

14 For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
17 In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 And he also that received the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
(Matthew 25:14-46)
This clearly emphasizes the importance of works. The servant who received one talent was a Christian because he received the talent and is called a servant…yet it is unfruitful and he is damned at judgement. (Faith without works is dead). Then Jesus goes on, and see how those so-called Christians that had barren faith (led to no works…so dead faith) were damned.

 

[twf]

6 And he spake this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none.
7 And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why doth it also cumber the ground?
8 And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down.
(Luke 13:6-9). Again we see the monumental importance of works…the tree (Christian) that bears no fruit (grace-empowered good works) is eventually ‘cut down’.

 

[Elizabeth]

Malachi4U:

Since nothing outside the Bible can be used, show me the verse in the Bible that supports this as the mothers ambiotic (sp?) fluid.
PS, good comeback with ambiotic fluid. I spent 27 years in ]

That would be amniotic fluid - although I have to say ‘ambiotic’ sounds so much more appropiate!

I have been fascinated to read your posts in this thread. I find what you say encouraging to me on my way to Rome, as they say!