Non-Catholics on these boards...

[kamz]

Little Mary,

Don’t let Ric get to you, he is doing that on purpose

I’ve stated before that I left the Catholic church for 4 years, in that time I was so certain I was right and Catholics were wrong that nothing you could have said would have meant anything to me and I mean nothing. I know God came to me and opened my eyes very clearly and on my own I started to hear and see things in the church I was in that started to not click to me as being right, I then asked my mom to get me some info on where this or that was in the bible and she got me two awesome books (Where is that in the bible? by Patrick Madrid) and (There we stood, here we stand by Timothy Drake) when I read these books I broke down and cried like a baby as my eyes were opened and it was so obvious to me that the Catholic church was the one true church and I could not get back to her fast enough. But…you can only lead by example you just can’t do anything else but pray for someone like Ric and leave it at that, People like that are so far gone into what they believe you can only pray and lead by your good example. People like this only too well love to get you heated up and upset and its not worth it. You can’t change Ric and he can’t change you, don’t stoop to his level, be strong in the Lord and pray for him and leave it at that. Let God do the work, you can only do so much on message boards. Ric and other anti-Catholics would love for you to doubt your faith so they say hurtful things and use plenty of sarcasim, ignore, ignore, ignore. Focus on God, pray for others that their eyes will be opened to the truth, lead by good example and then leave it to God.

 

[twf]

Ric: You can’t download the book directly. You have to contact Dave, and he’ll email it to you. It’s not a free download (his books our his only source of income), but is quite reasonable…you can get it for $6 (or $9 for the delux edition). If you are unwilling or unable to pay, I can ‘lend’ it to you if you email me at tyler_fehr@hotmail.com.

As for your comment of Christ coming into your life and never leaving you since…this is a spiritual presence, the reception of Christ they are talking about is a physical and spiritual reception of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. However, I think you should create some other threads on the apologetics board if you want to discuss issues like the Eucharist and such…this is too big already (this thread).

What are your views on those passages I posted on the brief commentaries I provided?

But this thread is so out of hand, that I can not possiably reply to all of the posts. Plus I just looked on page 5 and I did not find your post.
Sorry…I guess I can’t expect you to respond to every post. It is on page 5 though…just do a search (CTRL-F) for twf.

 

[Accipiter]

Speaking to the OP:

Birth Canal Catholic, decorated altar boy, church every Sunday for umpteen years, Baptised, Confirmed, the works. Emancipated myself from the Church at my earliest opportunity, tried going back a few times to see if I missed something, decided I liked Reason better, and have been a passionate/joyful nontheist/secular humanist ever since.

Just checking it out in the same way that I look at other things from my past because they hold a unique connection to my “development” and history, and it’s fascinating to try and see why other adults came to such dramatically different conclusions from myself.

Will chime in whenever I feel my divergent perspective can add some trifle to the dialogue or search for truth.

 

[Shari]

Pax:

Shari,

Sadly I have not gotten to this book yet. I have a very long reading list and this title has been on it for quite awhile. The author is not Chesterton, but is H.W. Crocker III. By most accounts this is an excellent book. Non catholics may not care for it because it is written from a catholic perspective.

If you want to get an idea as to what Luther has said in his own words you can check out a debate between Dave Armstrong and a protestant defender of Lurther. Dave Armstrong, a catholic convert, has some very unflattering things to say about Luther. Aside from any labels used by Armstrong, which might offend some people, he uses extended quotes of Luther’s own words to show what he was all about. Every protestant should read the man’s own words and then decide. I was personally blown away by some of the incredible things he wrote. There is simply no fig leaf big enough to cover any of it up.

I’ll get a web link/site and post it shortly.

Thanks for the info. I really appriciate it.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Malachi4U:

Your do have some truth there, the body des not refer to ‘Roman’ Catholics it refers to ALL Catholics. This includes the Eastern Rite etc. There is still just one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church today and ever will be. That’s why I said Catholics are the body. Also you said we have one Faith which is why eventually the lost flock will come home to His Catholic Church.

Eph 1:22-23 “…the church, 23 which is his body…”

Eph 4:12-13 “…building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of faith…”

Mk 9:38-41 “38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” 39 Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.” (This shows those outside the body can also be saved?)

Jn 10:16 “I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (The lost sheep will rejoin His body/flock someday)

Rom 15:5-6 “5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to think in harmony with one another, in keeping with Christ Jesus, 6 that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (like you said, one Faith ‘alone’)

1 Cor 1:10-13 “I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose…”

1 Cor 3:3-6 “…While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way? 4 Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human? 5 What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.” (flesh = body?)

1 Cor 4:15-17 “Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus), just as I teach them everywhere in every church.” (father = priest)

Ti 3:1 “Remind them to be under the control of magistrates and authorities, to be obedient…”

Just a few various verses but I am limited on space. The New Testament is full of anti-schismatic messages if you look for them. Sit down and read one complete book at a time as they were intended slowly, prayerfully and with an open mind as if Jesus were saying them to you to correct your erros. You will see the theme of unity in His Church and the authority, not self misinterpretation, He gave us to teach us.

Malachi, Forgive me of my ignorence. When you said catholic I assumed you meant RCC. By the way ,which part of Gods Word do you claim in what I quoted is not Gods Truth? P/s. I do read the Book of Ephesians very slowly. I have spent the last five month reading and eating His Word in the Book of Ephesians. I guess I m probably slow. Well any ways ,great book, it has taught me how to live as a christian. Try eating and digesting His Word in this book .You will be a new creation. God Bless.

 

[STJOMO]

O’Hare’s book says, among other things, that Luther said that Christ’s death and resurrection rendered the Ten Commandments moot.

How do Protestants reconcile that?

 

[Malachi4U]

SPOKENWORD:

…P/s. I do read the Book of Ephesians very slowly. I have spent the last five month reading and eating His Word in the Book of Ephesians. I guess I m probably slow. Well any ways ,great book, it has taught me how to live as a christian. Try eating and digesting His Word in this book .You will be a new creation. God Bless.

Gods peace be with you Theophilus,

I never thought I’d say this and maybe I don’t have all the information so this may be out of context but perhaps you’ve read Ephesians ‘too’ slowly? Some times we can’t see the trees when the forrest gets in the way. You may be so engrossed in one view of the Book that the rest of it or other revelations from it are just out of sight. This goes for any subject too?

I spent years going to protestant churches and never saw the ‘Catholic’ teachings in Scripture, over 20 years in fact. Of course for those years I read Scripture to prove the preachers theology and I did. One day the Holy Spirit lifted the scales off my eyes - while in a Baptist church no less - and I began to ‘see’ what I never saw before. Now when I read Scripture I read it to reveal what to believe and not to prove what I want to believe. There is a subtle difference here if you caught it. I could prove Hitler loved Jews if I wanted to in his famous book Mien Kampf because I’d just subconsiously overlook the hatred of the Jews. Come to think of it, maybe millions of Germans did just that?

The only place in the entire Bible that the phrase ‘faith alone’ is found is Jas 2:24. When I read protestant friends this verse they just claim its a translation error in the evil Catholic Bible and its not in a real Bible. The Catholics must have added it like they do everything else. When I point it out in their KJV they just ignore it and the conversation is over. True story and it happens so often you head would spin. I just want to cry in sorrow for some people like that.

A prisoner of Christ

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Malachi4U:

Gods peace be with you Theophilus,

I never thought I’d say this and maybe I don’t have all the information so this may be out of context but perhaps you’ve read Ephesians ‘too’ slowly? Some times we can’t see the trees when the forrest gets in the way. You may be so engrossed in one view of the Book that the rest of it or other revelations from it are just out of sight. This goes for any subject too?

I spent years going to protestant churches and never saw the ‘Catholic’ teachings in Scripture, over 20 years in fact. Of course for those years I read Scripture to prove the preachers theology and I did. One day the Holy Spirit lifted the scales off my eyes - while in a Baptist church no less - and I began to ‘see’ what I never saw before. Now when I read Scripture I read it to reveal what to believe and not to prove what I want to believe. There is a subtle difference here if you caught it. I could prove Hitler loved Jews if I wanted to in his famous book Mien Kampf because I’d just subconsiously overlook the hatred of the Jews. Come to think of it, maybe millions of Germans did just that?

The only place in the entire Bible that the phrase ‘faith alone’ is found is Jas 2:24. When I read protestant friends this verse they just claim its a translation error in the evil Catholic Bible and its not in a real Bible. The Catholics must have added it like they do everything else. When I point it out in their KJV they just ignore it and the conversation is over. True story and it happens so often you head would spin. I just want to cry in sorrow for some people like that.

A prisoner of Christ

Sorry Malachi but you make no sense in your forest analogy. The Word of God is not to be read quickly.It is meant to eat and digest for it is Christ in you.We are to understand it with the help of the Holy Spirit which is our teacher. Jesus promised us that. The Book of Ephesians is so rich that there is much for us to learn and live. It tells us who we are in Christ and how we are to live.If you only learned and lived this Book you would be whom Christ called you to be. Peace and Love in Christ.

 

[mango_2003]

Malachi4U:

I’m glad you believe in the Catholic Tradition of the Trinity. With Solo Scripture you can’t believe it it since it prohibits it.

This makes no sense. Using the Bible…ALONE…can prove the nature of God in a Trinity. The Bible prohibits believing in the Holy Trinity? Wierd.

Again proof Sola Scripture is a man made tradition since it is so easily proven wrong. I gues thats why the Southern Baptists are being taken over by Calvinists and subordinationism/polytheisim/multiple gods?

I have no idea. I’ve never met a Southern Baptist, don’t know anything about how they view things, and I see little to no relevance here. (If there is, lemme know…I’ll be the first to admit I’m a little thick headed.)

These above are great verses and apply to false man made theology like Luther’s and Smyth’s and Calvin’s. Things like Sola Fida and Sola Scripture which defile our soul and did not come from God and were not taught before 1517! Is that proof enough?

No…it is not. This is because we are going to differ on what the “Traditions of men” is. The fact that Sola Scriptura wasn’t taught before 1517 (which, I might add…I would like to see proof of, if you don’t mind) means nothing. The RCC has added numerous teachings along the way. RCC today is not like the early church…many additions.

Whyile inking this out I think I saw your point about Tradition?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon3.gif

Maybe what your saying is that the original Tradition is from God but Tradition like black clothing for priests or the Bible were made up later? Maybe I am seeing you point after all but I still say if it comes from Christs Church then it is still good. After all the Bible was added on by Tradition and you apear to love the Bible.
In some ways, you’re correct…Tradition from God is fine…we’re going to argue on what exactly that is. And, I’m a bit curious as to the last part of this paragraph. Of course I love the Bible…it’s God’s Word!!!

~mango~

 

[Susanna]

We all create our own reality? No objective truths? I think you’re confusing pagans with New Agers. There’s some overlap, but not an entire overlap. Not all pagans are New Agers. A lot of pagans believe in objective reality and objective truth.

Hi HD— good Monday! I think I am pretty clear on the differences between new age and pagan sects. I have had experience with both. Isn’t “magick” a use of “energies” to create or at least influence your own “reality”?

Also doesn’t this contradict what you said earlier. I realize that there are sects in paganism but if a group believes their reality and truth are objective then how are they accepting of others beliefs? I do not believe there are alternative truths. For example take abortion (and PLEASE I do not wish to debate this issue—I am using it only for an example of what I mean because it works really well) it is intrinsically immoral, there are no circumstances that justify taking a completely innocent human life. My faith in this truth requires me to act to end this injustice and not to “tolerate” it because another person’s faith leads them to believe it is something good.Yet from my own personal experience with paganism emphasis is placed on accepting diversity and tolerating others beliefs as equally valid— I guess it is hard for me to square belief in objective truths with honoring every other truth— especially when contradictory to a truth that is supposedly objective. Doesn’t objective imply in some way a universality to that truth?

It’s called the Wiccan Rede and it applies to Wiccans only. Not to all pagans. A Hellenic Reconstructionist pagan would laugh himself silly at the thought of applying the Rede to his own religion

.

Well I admit I did not run into any Hellenic Reconstructionists — in fact my experience is that the majority of pagans are pretty individual in their beliefs and practices. They may borrow from certain pantheons and traditions but my experience was that by and large they are a pretty ecclectic and solitary bunch.

Theoretically. But in practice, it is not the atheists and pagans, with their relativistic morality, who have engaged on crusades, inquisitions, jihads and 9/11.

You know that just isn’t true— What about my ancestors—the Vikings or what about the Ghenghis Khan and his Mongols? Their crusades in China may have cost 30,000,000 lives— they were pagans. And if you are referring to “modern” pagans whose existence came about only 60 years or so ago— I would ask how many Christian crusades occured in the last 60 years? And what about Nazism— that was a crusade with occult/pagan foundations— within the last century. Are you familiar with the Thule society?

Thulist powers were embodied in pagan deities, specifically Woden, their symbols were the swastika (an ancient “rune” symbolizing the sun, the moving wheel of life and the process of transmutation) and the red eagle.
Thule in occultic, Greek and Viking lore was the capital of an ancient ice-island called Hyperborea, inhabited by superhumans with psychic powers who eventually founded the Aryan race.
Thule Society members or supporters who became key Nazi officials included: Max Amann (Editor of Nazi Party publications), Hans Frank (governor of Occupied Poland), Anton Drexler (founder of the German Workers’ Party), Gottfried Feder (co-founder of the Nazi Party), Karl Harrer (first chairman of the NSDAP), Rudolf Hess (Hitler’s Minister of State), Dr. Heinz Kurz (SS leader), Feiedrich Krohn (designer of Nazi insignia), Ernst Roehm (leader of Storm Troopers), Alfred Rosenberg (Foreign Services chief, propagandist, author of “The Myth of the Twentieth Century”), Julius Streicher, (Gauleiter of Franconia), and of course Hitler himself (as a “visiting brother”). Dietrich Eckart, a leading Thulist who died in 1923, deserves posthumous Nazi membership; among his last words was this proclamation: “Follow Hitler! He will dance, but it is I who will call the tune.” Eckart took credit for initiating Hitler into Blavatsky’s “Secret Doctrine” and for putting him in contact with “the powers”. Hitler later dedicated “Mein Kampf” to Eckart.

And I would say with regard to atheism— Stalin and Communist Russia and China today. We may never know the uncounted millions who died in those places.

I would suggest to you that all religious or philosophical precepts at times have been perverted by men seeking to gain for themselves what they see as unlimited power and wealth. Wouldn’t you agree this is a fault found in human nature (I would say our fallen human nature) and not particular to any one group of people?

 

[Malachi4U]

SPOKENWORD:

Sorry Malachi but you make no sense in your forest analogy. The Word of God is not to be read quickly.It is meant to eat and digest for it is Christ in you.We are to understand it with the help of the Holy Spirit which is our teacher. Jesus promised us that. The Book of Ephesians is so rich that there is much for us to learn and live. It tells us who we are in Christ and how we are to live.If you only learned and lived this Book you would be whom Christ called you to be. Peace and Love in Christ.

Part One,

Theophilus,

We both agree the Scripture should be read slowly and preyerfully as if God was speaking it to us. A good speed for example might be at that which someone would read it aloud to you. Of course there will be times that we will need to pause so as to look up other verses or ‘Context’. What I am saying by too slow is that if a person read one verse a day, how long would it take to read all 73 books of inspired Scripture? Would the average person not forget a verse read 7 months ago that would add meaning or ‘context’ to the current verse? We must read the Scripture fast enough to cover it all but slow enough to learn from it. Where does the Bible even say I have to read it or use it at all to be saved?

I am sure you are on a good reading plan though.

As for the forest and the trees. I talk to Baptists weekly at our AWANA club meeting. (Its out for summer now) They almost all say there is nothing in Scripture that talks about the authority or unity of the church, clergy or anything else ‘Romanish’. They claim they can start a new church (i.e. sect/denomination) anytime they feel like it. Some Christians there are not even members of any church at all. Thay state they see no message in the KJV that says Christ established an authority or a church which we must follow. No message of unity or common Faith either. I might add that they allways find a verse in or out of context to support their position too.

A prisoner of Christ

Ephesians is rich as you say:

Eph 2:8-10 “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.” (Why do so many quote verses 8 & 9 and skip 10? We are saved by ‘faith alone’ or Gods grace alone? Works are evil?)

Eph 5:3-5 “3 Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, 4 no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving. 5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” (So if someone has ‘faith alone’ does it save them if they do these evils?)

Mt 16:18-19 “18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”" (God founded an authority on earth in His clergy?)

Mt 19:16-22 “16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” 17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; 19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions." (The Master did not say ‘faith alone’ saves?)

 

[Malachi4U]

Part two,

Phil 3 11-19 “11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only, with regard to what we have attained, continue on the same course. 17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us. 18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction. Their God is their stomach; their glory is in their “shame.” Their minds are occupied with earthly things.” (St. Paul had assurance of salvation? St. Paul asked others to imitate Christ or Him (in this passage)? St. Paul taught us to take multiple courses or denominations/sects?)

2 Thes 2:15 “15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” (Ok, we at least agree some Traditions are good?)

Jas 2:14-26 “14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (We are clearly taught here that ‘faith alone’ gives us an ‘assurance’ of salvation? Yes? No?)

What about the parable of Faith being known by its fruit? What does fruit mean, ‘Faith’ or ‘works’? Will a tree with no fruit be saved?

We all agree works alone does not save! No Catholic does.
Is Faith without works/deeds alive?

 

[Cindy]

The fact that Sola Scriptura wasn’t taught before 1517 (which, I might add…I would like to see proof of, if you don’t mind) means nothing. The RCC has added numerous teachings along the way. RCC today is not like the early church…many additions.

An excellent resource on the topic is, “An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine” by John Henry Cardinal Newman, a 19th century Anglican convert.

I was once an advocate of Sola Scriptura myself, but I discovered that it is an unbiblical doctrine. The Bible doesn’t teach that Scripture alone is our sole authority.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

“… and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2).

Apostolic teaching is authoritative whether it is written (Sacred Scripture) or oral (Sacred Tradition). God speaks to His Church through Scripture and Tradition.

I also discovered that* Sola Scriptura* is not historical. Throughout Church history, when heretics and schismatics appealed to Scripture to support their aberrant beliefs, the Church held fast to the authentic, unbroken Tradition that had been handed down from the Apostles. Sacred Tradition protects the true meaning of Scripture.

St. Vincent of Lerins expressed the faith of the early Church:

"With great zeal and closest attention, therefore, I frequently inquired of many men, eminent for their holiness and doctrine, how I might, in a concise and, so to speak, general and ordinary way, distinguish the truth of the Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity.

*"I received almost always the same answer from all of them – that if I or anyone else wanted to expose the frauds and escape the snares of the heretics who rise up, and to remain intact and in sound faith, it would be necessary, with the help of the Lord, to fortify that faith in a twofold manner: first, of course, by the authority of divine law *[Scripture] and then by the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

"Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the Scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, Sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .

“Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning” (The Notebooks, A.D. 434).

The idea of “Sola Scriptura” appeared late in Church history. Sola Scriptura is itself a Protestant tradition.

Finally, I learned that Sola Scriptura simply doesn’t work. As I mentioned in a previous post, my husband and I once worked for a Protestant apologetics organization. Among the staff were Lutherans, Baptists, Reformed, Calvary Chapel, and others. We held a variety of beliefs on central theological issues: Baptismal regeneration and infant baptism, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, eternal security, and so on. Though we often engaged in theological debates, there was simply no way to settle our disputes using the Bible alone. We *all *claimed the Bible as our sole authority, but who was to determine the true interpretation? Who had the final say?

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, the Reformers disagreed vehemently with one another. And so it has been for the past 500 years. The fruit of *Sola Scriptura *is 30,000 bickering denominations. Without an authority outside of Scripture, Protestantism will continue in a hopeless state of division and confusion.

To accept Christ and then reject His Church – to accept Sacred Scripture and then reject Sacred Tradition – is to reject the fullness of Christian Truth. At the end of the fourth century, the Catholic Church infallibly determined the canon of Scripture and gave us the Bible. If we trust the Catholic Church to tell us what the Bible is, shouldn’t we then trust the Catholic Church to tell us what the Bible means?

God bless!

Cindy

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Susanna:

Isn’t “magick” a use of “energies” to create or at least influence your own “reality”?

Sure, in a loose sense. In that, it’s like prayer.

Yet from my own personal experience with paganism emphasis is placed on accepting diversity and tolerating others beliefs as equally valid— I guess it is hard for me to square belief in objective truths with honoring every other truth— especially when contradictory to a truth that is supposedly objective. Doesn’t objective imply in some way a universality to that truth?

Alternative views are tolerated as long as they’re not on expense of other people. For a Muslim to pray five times a day is tolerated; for him to fly a plane into a building is not.

You know that just isn’t true—

Christians say Hitler was an atheist, atheists say Hitler was a Christian, and the allegation that he was pagan comes from both sides. The fact is, he used religion cynically, for his own purpose, and his only religion was Self and Fatherland.

I would suggest to you that all religious or philosophical precepts at times have been perverted by men seeking to gain for themselves what they see as unlimited power and wealth. Wouldn’t you agree this is a fault found in human nature (I would say our fallen human nature) and not particular to any one group of people?

Mankind is born with an inclination to do evil. But Divine Command Morality won’t solve that problem. I don’t believe in Divine Command Morality. If a God told me to kill my son, I would disobey.

 

[RedGolum]

One Big Ugly Lutheran here!

 

[kamz]

One big ugly Lutheran here???

I guess I don’t get that.
I’m Catholic and my husband is Lutheran and he is not ugly to me or his children who are also Catholic.

If a Catholic posts on a Lutheran message board (which I have done) you get alot of confrontation and I guess you should expect it and vise versa. Lutherans don’t want someone coming in and telling them they are wrong and to change their way of thinking etc. and Catholics don’t either. Can we co-exsist? I think so, I’m living proof of 12 years of a mixed marriage that has worked very well for this family, but, it takes work and message boards can’t begin to do that. If you are here to learn more about the Catholic faith, thats great, if you want to find out where we are alike in our faiths that is also great, but if you come to these boards to bash Catholics or try to tell them they are wrong and they should change to a different faith, your wasting your time.

 

[Edwin1961]

Katholikos:

I’m not either. I’m Byzantine Catholic. “Roman” refers to a specific rite (style of worship) within the Catholic Church.

(Not really – I’m a Latin Rite Catholic, but I wanted to make the point on behalf of my Byzantine Catholic friends who resent being called “Roman.”)

Peace be to you and to all.

THANK YOU!!
:clapping: :bounce: :bowdown2:
(you all know where I stand on that statement).

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Malachi4U:

Part two,

Phil 3 11-19 “11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only, with regard to what we have attained, continue on the same course. 17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us. 18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction. Their God is their stomach; their glory is in their “shame.” Their minds are occupied with earthly things.” (St. Paul had assurance of salvation? St. Paul asked others to imitate Christ or Him (in this passage)? St. Paul taught us to take multiple courses or denominations/sects?)

2 Thes 2:15 “15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” (Ok, we at least agree some Traditions are good?)

Jas 2:14-26 "14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25

Malachi, I would like to bring up the Keys that was given to Peter. I want you to know I recieved one of those keys. Jesus gave those keys to Peter to distribute to His church. In recieving one of these keys I have been set free from the chains and bondage of satan. I am free and with this key [CHRIST} I can walk through the gates of the kingdom. Peter went on to establish the church along with all of the other appostles. That church is catholic [universal]. That church is the Body of Christ, and I am part of the body and so is any christian. Its not about any denomination, its about Christ living in us. We are His church. With this key {Christ] I have the power in the name of Jesus Christ to loose and bind here on this earth,{ not reserved for the select few]. My prayer is for unity in the Body of Christ, that we as christians will come through the gates of heaven with the Keys that were distributed by Peter through His church.

 

[Edwin1961]

(This post is a response to comments about the rosary which are from the beginning posts of this thread).

Ric,
You mentioned about ‘vain repetition’
is condemed to Christ.

Ric,
!) Do you believe there are prayers in the Bible?
2) And if there ARE prayers in the Bible, then are they inspired by God?
3) Would you consider the Psalms as prayers to and for God?
4) And so, one particular Psalm contains the following:

Psalm 136 (RSV-CE)

1 O give thanks to the LORD,
for he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.

2 O give thanks to the God of gods,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.

3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;

4 to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

5 to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

6 to him who spread out the earth upon the waters, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

7 to him who made the great lights,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;

8 the sun to rule over the day, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

9 the moon and stars to rule over the night, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

10 to him who smote the first-born of Egypt, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

11 and brought Israel out from among them, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

12 with a strong hand and an outstretched arm, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

13 to him who divided the Red Sea in sunder, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

14 and made Israel pass through the midst of it, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

15 but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

16 to him who led his people through the wilderness, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

17 to him who smote great kings,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;

18 and slew famous kings, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

20 and Og, king of Bashan, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

21 and gave their land as a heritage,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;

22 a heritage to Israel his servant,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.

23 It is he who remembered us in our low estate, for his steadfast love endures for ever;

24 and rescued us from our foes,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;

25 he who gives food to all flesh,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.

26 O give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures for ever.

Can you pick out the repetition?
Ric, How could God inspire David to write this and this is in the Bible if God - Christ (who IS God) wanted to warn us about repetitive prayer, then David wouldn’t have been able to write this…let alone allow it to be in Sacred Scripture.

Just a thought…
…For HIS steadfast love endures FOR EVER!

Go with God!
Edwin

 

[Susanna]

[Heathen Dawn]Sure, in a loose sense. In that, it’s like prayer.

As someone who has practiced both I would say there are some very fundamental differences between prayer and magick. The interior disposition of someone praying and someone casting a spell are worlds apart. Thought and action follow intention… in my experience intention is very different in these two instances.

Christians say Hitler was an atheist, atheists say Hitler was a Christian, and the allegation that he was pagan comes from both sides. The fact is, he used religion cynically, for his own purpose, and his only religion was Self and Fatherland.

I do agree with your last statement but the historically documented facts are that Hitler was surrounded and supported by those who were occultists and pagans. The whole Aryan ideology was based in pagan lore and “secret” societies.

Mankind is born with an inclination to do evil. But Divine Command Morality won’t solve that problem.

I would call that “inclination” original sin. We do agree though that “Divine Command Morality” won’t solve the problem. The Old Testament Law proved that. Paul makes it pretty clear in Romans chapt. 3:20-24

since no human being will be justified in his sight
by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness
of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been
manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law
and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus
Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.
They are justified freely by his grace through the
redemption in Christ Jesus,

Grace obtained through faith is the answer—A faith that is lived out in self donation— the gift of self to God and to others. Blessings!