Non-Catholics on these boards...

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Ric:
When Jesus was talking about being born of water, He was refering to natural birth from the mother’s womb. This is where we understand the fact of the first birth and the second birth (second birth being one who is “born again” from John 3:3). 🙂
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I’m curious about this interpretation. If Jesus was speaking about natural birth, or “from your mother’s womb”, my question would be, “as opposed to what?”

If you insert that meaning into Jesus’ words, you actually come up with a somewhat comical statement.

To understand what I mean simply paraphrase Jesus’ words using that interpretation, but say it as a negative statement, such as: “If one is not born from his mother’s womb and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Does that mean, if I was never born (from my mother’s womb) I cannot be born again?

Why would Jesus bother to say something like that?

Mark
 
Accipiter:

I appreciate your comments and agree wholeheartedly with most of what you have said. Where we seem to disagree is the foundation point of the discussion and consequently the conclusion drawn.

You state: “Faith” implies “blind” trust that does not permit inquiry and skepticism, and that locks-in a conclusion…

I understand your point. My point in this discussion, however, is to state that blind trust is one guaranteed aspect of the human condition. And, essentially, faith precedes reason; reason, in turn, leads to faith.

For example, somebody had to initially tell us that an automobile requires fuel in order to make it “go”. And most, if not all, people accepted this fact blindly. I consider myself fairly skeptical, but I did not empty the fuel tank in order to prove the concept.

Subsequent experience, using knowledge and reason, proved this to be true. From my experience, as long as there is gas in the car, I now blindly trust that the car will go. [Understanding, of course, from other (mostly not so good) experiences that other parts of the car may not function correctly.] In other words, I don’t have to prove it or even question it again and again. I have faith.

Now, referring to your statement above, does my faith that the car will start not permit inquiry and skepticism? Absolutely not! I first blindly trusted the source of the information. Second, I learned the “truth”. Next, I chose to believe it completely (no reason to further question!) Again, faith precedes reason, which leads to faith.

I believe that you have to critically analyze all of the information that you are presented with, and make choices accordingly. The Catholic Church teaches that this process is very important, and gives individuals a large amount of flexibility to experience the journey on their own terms. I think what you are uncomfortable with is that the Church also believes that through this process your beliefs will eventually converge with that of the Church’s.

This perceived lack of autonomy scared me for a lot of years. But over the years my observations (mostly in the more abstract realm of the human condition - which by the way the Church is more concerned with than scientific principles) have led me to the conclusion that Church’s Christian philosophy and teachings taken as a whole are the only valid principles by which humans can thrive and succeed as both individuals and societies.

I’ve realized that the Church is a source of information that can be trusted, most of the time blindly. Therefore, do I really need to go back and prove over and over “that fuel makes the car go”?

I don’t believe that is necessary.

Peace.
 
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Shari:
We are saved by God’s grace with faith working through love. No one is saved by faith or works.
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But I see what Ric is saying when he says that Catholics believe that one must ‘work to keep his salvation.’ From what I understand, Catholics believe that grace is freely given by God; that grace is made available to all by Christ’s death and resurrection. We accept that grace by faith. True faith necessarily yields good works. When we sin, however, we lose that grace, and are in danger of damnation, so we must take the initiative to confess and perform penance for our sin so that God will restore us to grace. So in a sense, according to Catholic thought, grace is given by God, but the maintanence of that grace is dependent upon our willingness to confess and repent. Initial salvation is through God, but once we ‘lose’ that salvation, it’s on us to get it back. Does that sound right, or am I missing something (I’m not Catholic, so I could definitely be wrong).
 
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Thepeug:
But I see what Ric is saying when he says that Catholics believe that one must ‘work to keep his salvation.’ From what I understand, Catholics believe that grace is freely given by God; that grace is made available to all by Christ’s death and resurrection. We accept that grace by faith. True faith necessarily yields good works. When we sin, however, we lose that grace, and are in danger of damnation, so we must take the initiative to confess and perform penance for our sin so that God will restore us to grace. So in a sense, according to Catholic thought, grace is given by God, but the maintanence of that grace is dependent upon our willingness to confess and repent. Initial salvation is through God, but once we ‘lose’ that salvation, it’s on us to get it back. Does that sound right, or am I missing something (I’m not Catholic, so I could definitely be wrong).
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When we sin, we do not lose God’s grace…our own faith is damaged. It’s not the God’s free gift of grace that needs to be maintained…but rather our own faith. God offers us salvation now and forever, but it’s possible to choose (faith) whether or not to accept that salvation day by day according to our actions.

God gives grace. We accept God’s grace with faith. We keep our faith alive with good works. Catholics are saved by grace, through faith, working in love.

I hope this helps. God Bless.
 
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Ric:
When he contradicts God’s Word. Simple! 👍
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But on those rare occasions, he honestly doesn’t think he contradicts God Word, but you honestly think he does. He honestly thinks scripture supports his view, but you honestly think it does not.

Who’s right and how can you ever possibly know for certain? Both of you can claim that the Holy Spirit guides you to that decision, but you can’t both be right if your views contradict each other. How can the issue ever be resolved? If only Jesus were here so we could ask him – or at least a representative who he has given authority to resolve such issues.

I don’t believe Jesus would’ve left us without some sort of authority to resolve such differences, and if “scripture alone” is the authority, it has done a poor job – even among Christians who use the very same translation of His Word!

Luckily Jesus did not leave us sheep alone to shepherd ourselves – he established his one Church and gave the “keys to the kingdom” to that one person he renamed to “Rock”.

Come and see what it is like to put your feet on solid ground. Why be hard of heart and continue standing under the one-pillar house built on sand? A one-pillar house is unstable – any carpenter would know this. So much more the Master, Jesus Christ. The one-pillar house has continually fallen and broken into smaller and smaller pieces. Do you not see the trend? Over time it will continue to break further and further until each individual is a “church”.

Come to the safety and security of the 2-pillar house built on solid rock! The Church built by the Master carpenter Himself.👍
 
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SwissGuard:
When we sin, we do not lose God’s grace…our own faith is damaged. It’s not the God’s free gift of grace that needs to be maintained…but rather our own faith. God offers us salvation now and forever, but it’s possible to choose (faith) whether or not to accept that salvation day by day according to our actions.

God gives grace. We accept God’s grace with faith. We keep our faith alive with good works. Catholics are saved by grace, through faith, working in love.

I hope this helps. God Bless.
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SwissGuard,

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation. Another piece of the puzzle with which I strugge concerning a Catholic perspective is this: say you ‘damage’ your faith and commit a mortal sin. You have purposefully turned away from God. Immediately afterwards, however, you realize your mistake and are truly sorry and repent in your heart, asking God for forgiveness. You intend to confess the sin formally, but you die suddenly before you get a chance to confess. If you confess the sin to God with a contrite and humble heart but do not confess to a priest for whatever reason, are you still going to hell? I know this has probably been asked before, but while we’re on the topic, I figured I’d throw it out there. Thanks!

In Christ,

Chris
 
God is ever merciful. As the Catechism says, God is not bound by His sacraments (though he has bound salvation for us to His saraments). The Church believes that one who dies with a contrite heart can still find eternal rest, assuming that he would have confessed had he had the chance (or realized that it was necessary).
 
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Thepeug:
You intend to confess the sin formally, but you die suddenly before you get a chance to confess. If you confess the sin to God with a contrite and humble heart but do not confess to a priest for whatever reason, are you still going to hell?
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That, my friend…is exactly what Purgatory is for. Purgatory is the state of cleansing after we die before we are admitted into heaven.

The early Church taught the doctrine of Purgatory as one of the basic beliefs of the faith, due to these facts: 1) A person’s soul deserves hell only by willingly rejecting God’s mercy and existence through sin and is unrepentant (in a way condemning itself). However, 2) Revelation 21:27 tells us that “nothing unclean can enter heaven.”

What about the Christian people who die every day with unrepented sins on their conscience? God is just and would not condemn them to hell (obviously), because they are believers and because there is no escape from hell. However, they cannot immediately enter into heaven, because their soul is still unclean. There must be a way of cleansing, and the Church calls this place Purgatory.

That’s a consise explanation…but some of the discussions I’ve had about Purgatory would be enough to start at least three or four different threads! Anyway, I hope this clears up some stuff. Peace.
 
Ok, that makes sense. There are lots of little scenarios that one agonize over, i.e. “what if you commit a mortal sin and are hit by a car before you have a chance to repent, but if you had lived you would have repented shortly afterwards?”, etc. I think what it boils down to, however, is that God is ever merciful and ever just. I don’t think He’d condemn someone to hell on a technicality. Any objections?

In Christ,

Chris
 
Good Morning HD,

I am still puzzled over your responses about the Christian Tradition of prayer and I am hoping you can clarify them. I had asked these questions several days ago :
Heathen Dawn:
But the purpose is the same: to create or change your reality. Which is what you have a complaint against.
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My question remains unanswered:
When I read this (above quote) I wondered about your understanding that what you practice in some way creates or changes reality.

Who is it exactly that is “creating” your reality?
Who is it that causes the “change” in your reality?

Then I followed that with this question:I am also wondering about how your above statement applies to your WHO.

What is the factual basis for your understanding that this creator/prompter of change you speak of, even exists?

Again I can find no answer posted. I have read your current post which states:
Heathen Dawn:
Where did Original Sin come from? From a nonexistent Adam and Eve?.
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Then you follow with:
Heathen Dawn:
I don’t deny sin, I deny the Christian concept of it. Sin is not a state you’re in but an action you perform.
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With all due respect I am wondering about your perceptions of your undefined creator and changer of realities.

Does this undefined WHO that answers your *call for change of reality or creation of a new reality in your life have a factual basis?

This sin, that you readily admit is an action performed, does it have any consequence in life according to your WHO?

When we perform the action of sin, is there an effect caused on our reality?

Does the action of sin change us in any way?

What does this WHO that you are praying to do with/about your sinning?

Does this **WHO ** of yours appreciate you sinning?

What is your Faith Teaching on your WHO and our action of sin?

Specifically--------are you told NOT to sin?

Does it even matter in your faith?

Please answer these questions. They are genuine and I am very interested in your understanding of this WHO and what you ask it to change/create?

Thanks so much, God’s Peace Be with You,
 
LourdesladyN,

I don’t understand what exactly you’re getting at. If you’re asking if I believe in a higher power or authority, then yes, I do, and in fact I believe in many of Them.

Magic causes change in reality either through manipulation of natural energies (same as heating water turns it into vapour) or by asking the Gods to exert Their control over nature and cause a change.

To sin is to go against the Gods, and its effect is estrangement from the Gods. For example, if I steal from someone, the Gods shun me, They don’t hear my prayers, They put misfortune in my life.

I hope I’ve done something in the way of answering you. If I have not, it’s because I didn’t understand the goal of your questions.
 
Welcome Monarchy. If I may ask, what brings you to this Catholic apologetics board?

Accipiter: What brought you to this thread? While he is an Evangelical Protestant, have you ever read any of Lee Strobel’s material? I recently read his The Case for Christ. He was an atheist at one point.
 
Welcome Monarchy. If I may ask, what brings you to this Catholic apologetics board?

Accipiter: What brought you to this forum?
While he is an Evangelical Protestant, have you ever read any of Lee Strobel’s material? I recently read his The Case for Christ. He was an atheist at one point.
 
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Thepeug:
Ok, that makes sense. There are lots of little scenarios that one agonize over, i.e. “what if you commit a mortal sin and are hit by a car before you have a chance to repent, but if you had lived you would have repented shortly afterwards?”, etc. I think what it boils down to, however, is that God is ever merciful and ever just. I don’t think He’d condemn someone to hell on a technicality. Any objections?

In Christ,

Chris
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Hi Chris

Another way to look at it is that God and only God knows what is in your heart. He knows if you are truly sorry for your sin (mortal or venial). If you are truly sorry and desired to be forgiven before you made it to confession but you were hit by a car first, yes, you are forgiven.

Another example is if someone had never been baptized but was on his/her way to be baptized and was hit by a car before he/she ever made it. The desire to be baptized is recongized.

Hope that helps:)
 
Mary,

Thanks for the explanation. It makes a lot of sense. I agree that God knows what is in our hearts, and being the loving, omnipotent God that He is, He will judge us accordingly. Also, concerning confession and mortal sin: while I know that confession is considered an obligation, I like the idea that, as someone pointed out the other day, confession should be seen as a privilege. To be to talk with a priest about anything that’s troubling you and know that God has forgiven you is something that is often taken for granted. I personally think it’s pretty cool.

God bless,

Chris
 
I agree. Confession is pretty cool. I always come away feeling ten pounds lighter. It’s great to be re-assured, in person, of God’s love and forgiveness. I call it good therapy when trying to explain it to others. If you have no one else to turn to - if you have something on your mind that you cannot discuss with anyone - the confessional will help you work through that.

:amen:

Little Mary
 
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Ric:
Now please do not get me wrong here, but thank you for your reply…

But I see that you are very emotional about the rosary, but I still see no reason to pray the rosary nor the theological benefits for praying the rosary (Scripture wise).

1.) Why pray the rosary?
2.) To whom am I praying?
3.) Why is the rosary so repetitive?
4.) How come I see no command to pray the rosary in the Scriptures?

Here are four quick questions I hope I can have an answer for.

Plus is there a place where I can study the rosary from the RCC’s belief on the web?

Thanks!
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My understanding is that the rosary was created as a way for illiterate people to ‘memorize’ the psalms. There are 150 psalms and if you pray the rosary three times (reflecting on the holy misteries at the end) you have said 150 prayers. It was a way for them to show their devotion even though they could not read. (someone correct me if I am wrong)
 
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twf:
Welcome Monarchy. If I may ask, what brings you to this Catholic apologetics board?
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I post at internet infidels and somone brought up this board. I came over and saw a thread on Harry Potter (I consider myself a fan) and started posting to correct some errors…
 
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