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Malachi4U
Guest
…Come to the safety and security of the 2-pillar house built on solid rock! The Church built by the Master carpenter Himself.
Malachi4U
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Malachi4U
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Malachi4U
Guest
Spokenword,
As always you make this site worth coming back to.
Jn 1:42 “42 Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas” (which is translated Peter).”
In Aramaic Kepha means Rock. Translated in to Greek masculine it is Peter. We must use the masculine since Kepha was a male even though the masculine and feminine in Greek have slightly different meanings. We must also use the correct era Greek meaning as languages change rapidly. Translated into Old English it is Cephas as used in the Original KJV repeatedly. Kepha is the original language word and it means ROCK. Also, are not buildings built on a corner”STONE” meaning a critical rock of support and meaning for the structure? This would indicate that it is only through self-interpretation or misleading arguments that we ‘assume’ stone means little pebble? My old preacher always referred to Peter as “little pebble” and never preached about the original meaning of Kepha or ROCK. Was he deliberately misleading us with his opinion?
See what Merriam-Webster defines as ‘stone’ and ‘rock’.
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=stone&x=16&y=12
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rock&x=18&y=17
‘Stone’ is also Old English and ‘Rock’ modern English so are you even sure of the “Original Context” in the Language it was written? From what I’ve seen a stone can be as big as a building or small as a jewel. Is it small because your opinion wants it to be small? When I was Geology major studying ‘little bitty rocks’ we would often compare them to big STONES outside in the “STONE” quarry. Cranes didn’t pick up little rocks they picked up massive, huge “STONEs”. Ancient buildings and modern ones were built with Marble “STONES” and itty bitty rocks were used to give traction in a concrete surfaces to walk on. Lets don’t assume rock means big and stone means small, that would be a false assumption.
The ‘keys’ represent authority as used in Biblical context. The one that holds the ‘keys’ holds the authority. Authority is also centralized, if it is dispersed then we no longer have authority but chaos. This theme is repeated in Scripture and was in the verses you claimed not to see it. The keys are given as authority to govern in absence. Much like the President gives the authority to the vice president when he has an operation. The President does not give the authority/keys to all or we would have anarchy. The fact that Jesus holds the keys in heaven proves both we do not hold them on earth or why would we need Jesus and His keys? And two, the keys represent His authority, why else even mention them if everyone has one?. You actually helped prove my point.
Rev 1:18 “18 the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.”
(Jesus has the ‘keys’ not you in judgment)
Rev 3:7 “7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this:”
(One person given the ‘Keys’)
Is 22:22 “22 I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
(One person given the ‘keys’)
I again challenge you, show me where Jesus gave you or anyone else other then His successors on earth, the Popes if you will, the “keys” to His kingdom and authority? You can’t because its just not there. If it was you would have used it instead of the path you chose. If it were there we would not need Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and we would all assume our own authority and become like gods ourselves. Chaos and Mormonism all in one. Kick God out, we don’t need Him we are saving ourselves, judging ourselves and worshiping ourselves and don’t need Him for nothing, we have the ‘keys’ after all and not Jesus?
Anyway, you give good rebuttals but I totally fail to see you point on this subject. Too bad we are limited on space as I think we could both say much more.
You’re a good Christian and I like your thoughts, they make me learn my Faith even better as I hope you do as well.
Till we meet again good friend,
Malachi4U
As always you make this site worth coming back to.
Jn 1:42 “42 Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas” (which is translated Peter).”
In Aramaic Kepha means Rock. Translated in to Greek masculine it is Peter. We must use the masculine since Kepha was a male even though the masculine and feminine in Greek have slightly different meanings. We must also use the correct era Greek meaning as languages change rapidly. Translated into Old English it is Cephas as used in the Original KJV repeatedly. Kepha is the original language word and it means ROCK. Also, are not buildings built on a corner”STONE” meaning a critical rock of support and meaning for the structure? This would indicate that it is only through self-interpretation or misleading arguments that we ‘assume’ stone means little pebble? My old preacher always referred to Peter as “little pebble” and never preached about the original meaning of Kepha or ROCK. Was he deliberately misleading us with his opinion?
See what Merriam-Webster defines as ‘stone’ and ‘rock’.
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=stone&x=16&y=12
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rock&x=18&y=17
‘Stone’ is also Old English and ‘Rock’ modern English so are you even sure of the “Original Context” in the Language it was written? From what I’ve seen a stone can be as big as a building or small as a jewel. Is it small because your opinion wants it to be small? When I was Geology major studying ‘little bitty rocks’ we would often compare them to big STONES outside in the “STONE” quarry. Cranes didn’t pick up little rocks they picked up massive, huge “STONEs”. Ancient buildings and modern ones were built with Marble “STONES” and itty bitty rocks were used to give traction in a concrete surfaces to walk on. Lets don’t assume rock means big and stone means small, that would be a false assumption.
The ‘keys’ represent authority as used in Biblical context. The one that holds the ‘keys’ holds the authority. Authority is also centralized, if it is dispersed then we no longer have authority but chaos. This theme is repeated in Scripture and was in the verses you claimed not to see it. The keys are given as authority to govern in absence. Much like the President gives the authority to the vice president when he has an operation. The President does not give the authority/keys to all or we would have anarchy. The fact that Jesus holds the keys in heaven proves both we do not hold them on earth or why would we need Jesus and His keys? And two, the keys represent His authority, why else even mention them if everyone has one?. You actually helped prove my point.
Rev 1:18 “18 the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.”
(Jesus has the ‘keys’ not you in judgment)
Rev 3:7 “7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this:”
(One person given the ‘Keys’)
Is 22:22 “22 I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
(One person given the ‘keys’)
I again challenge you, show me where Jesus gave you or anyone else other then His successors on earth, the Popes if you will, the “keys” to His kingdom and authority? You can’t because its just not there. If it was you would have used it instead of the path you chose. If it were there we would not need Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and we would all assume our own authority and become like gods ourselves. Chaos and Mormonism all in one. Kick God out, we don’t need Him we are saving ourselves, judging ourselves and worshiping ourselves and don’t need Him for nothing, we have the ‘keys’ after all and not Jesus?
Anyway, you give good rebuttals but I totally fail to see you point on this subject. Too bad we are limited on space as I think we could both say much more.
You’re a good Christian and I like your thoughts, they make me learn my Faith even better as I hope you do as well.
Till we meet again good friend,
Malachi4U
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Little_Mary
Guest
**Don’t forget that the rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ. **
You can go to catholic.com/library/rosary.asp
for more.
Monarchy, if you don’t mind, I would like to respond to Ric here as well, although I wonder where he is these days. …
*Why pray the rosary? *We say the rosary it is a very beautiful, powerful prayer that brings us closer to God, and because it is one way to focus on Christ’s life, death, and resurrection.
*To whom do we pray ?*We pray, as always, to God. When we say the Hail Mary, we are asking Mary to pray for us. Remember, that it is only through God that she can hear us. I like to think that when I am saying the Creed, the Our Father and the Glory Be, that Mary is praying with me.
Why be so repetitive? Why not? At each of the ten Hail Marys, we are to be meditation on a particular part of Jesus’ life: his birth, his cruficixion, his resurrection, …
Where is the command in the bible to say the rosary? Where is the command in the bible NOT to? Plus, if you open your mind just a little, you will see that the rosary is a BEAUTIFUL prayer, with nothing about it that contradicts the Good Book.
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Malachi. I appreciate your kind words toward me,and in the love of Jesus Christ I thank you. To continue this debate I feel I would only be repeticious. Youve made good points and so have I. Let us retain what is good and discard the bad. By the way I love your handle. In that book God has taught me how to be obedient. Obedience is better than sacrafice. The KEY is that we both have Jesus Christ in our hearts. God Bless.
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Eric_Goodrich
Guest
I am a Lutheran who is on this board. I have seen much Luther bashing on these message boards and am a bit timid to post. Our Nicene creed reads that “we believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church”. So we are catholic in origin, not “Catholic” in full pratice.
Eric
Eric
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Heathen_Dawn
Guest
Eric Goodrich:
Just kidding.
Welcome to the forums and blessed be!
What, you thought you could pin 95 theses to a church door and get away with it scott-free?
Just kidding.
Oh, oh. That’s the “Catholic but not Roman Catholic” debate.
Welcome to the forums and blessed be!
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Little_Mary
Guest
Eric Goodrich:
I have never attended a Lutheran service, but in the Methodist service I once attended, they say “one holy, catholic church” with a footnote making it clear that catholic means universal.
Welcome, and please don’t be timid. I am sorry if you’ve been offended by anything you’ve read.
I have never attended a Lutheran service, but in the Methodist service I once attended, they say “one holy, catholic church” with a footnote making it clear that catholic means universal.
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Thepeug
Guest
Little Mary said:
We pray, as always, to God. When we say the Hail Mary, we are asking Mary to pray for us. Remember, that it is only through God that she can hear us. I like to think that when I am saying the Creed, the Our Father and the Glory Be, that Mary is praying with me.
Mary,
On these boards alone, I have heard a myriad of opinions concerning whether or not Catholics actually pray to Mary. Some say that they merely ask Mary to pray for them, while others say that they pray to Mary, who is “omnipotent” and through whom is "obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation.” I find such quotes (which is from Pope Pius IX) highly disturbing. How can one read such a quote and not come to the conclusion that Catholics “worship” Mary or that she is a goddess? Despite all the lip-service paid to Christ as the source of Mary’s “omnipotence,” to think of her as the sole source of our salvation is to emphatically deny the centrality of Christ’s sacrifice as the means of our redemption. Considering that there seem to be two different extremes of Marian devotion within Catholicism, is there some official church teaching on this matter?
God bless,
Chris
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Little_Mary
Guest
Hello Chris,
I don’t know if I can help but I’ll try.
Some say that they ask Mary to pray for them while others say they pray to Mary. I think they are saying the same thing. I pray to Mary and ask her to pray for me. If you read the words of the prayer, the Hail Mary, that is what the last half of the prayer asks.
Regarding Pope Pious IX’s quote, I think the operative word here is through Mary. Nor do I see where he states she is the sole source of salvation. Remember, that only God hears all of our prayers. Mary is not God and so therefore she can only hear our prayers through God. Also, remember that she is the mother of Jesus who is our salvation. Mary willingly gave herself to this purpose when she answered the Angel Gabriel in the affirmative. We don’t worship Mary nor do we think she is divine, but we hold her in very high regard for agreeing to do God’s will and become the mother of Jesus.
Plus, who else on earth could possibly have been closer to Jesus than Mary was? Remember the Wedding at Canaa? Jesus did not want to perform that miracle, but He agreed to do it because His mother asked him to do it. Please don’t go off and think that Mary orders God around, not my point at all. Don’t go there. But Jesus respected her because she is His mother.
I can’t give you official church teaching off the top of my head, I’ll try to find some references for you on this subject and we can learn together. Meanwhile, visit the library at catholic.com.
We look upon Mary as our heavenly mother. That’s true. She loves all of us as her own children and wants fervently for us all to make it to heaven to be with her Son. I’m sure you’ve heard the hypothetical argument (or a similar one) that, if you were trying to obtain employment with a corporate entity, and you happened to be good friends with the CEO’s mother, would you not give her a call and ask her to put in a good word for you? That’s what Mary does for us. She puts in a good word for us. She looks out for us. She is our helper, our friend. She loves each of us at least as much as our own mothers do.
I’ll close with a little humor. This little joke underscores what I stated above, that Mary is our friend and loves each one of us as a mother loves a child. One day as Jesus was walking through Heaven, He noticed many faces that He did not think He would be seeing up there. He approached St. Peter with His concerns and St. Peter replied " It’s not me, Lord. Your mother keeps letting them in the back door!"
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LaSalle
Guest
Heathen Dawn:
Wiccan? A uniquely American thing I assume …Hello Catholics! I’m a Wiccan. I’m a polytheist, I believe in many Gods and Goddesses, as well as one Creator-God behind Them all, and I worship one God and one Goddess, the Horned God and the Triple Goddess.
I’m not here to proselytise (Wiccans don’t do that). But any misconceptions I see here regarding Wicca will be forthrightly corrected.
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mrS4ntA
Guest
The claim of Mary’s omnipotence does NOT exclude God as the source of her power. Nor does it is implied by the statement that salvation comes solely from Mary’s power, for one must also remember that without God whence Mary came to be in the first place, this power will not exist either.
God CHOSE to glorify this humble handmaid of His, so be it - it is not up to us to ignore what He decrees.
Christ is STILL our sole Saviour, there’s just now the intercessory POWER of a queen mother, like Bethseba in the OT. God decrees that all graces He now bestows on man should come THROUGH Mary, the same vehicle through which our SAVIOUR came to this world!
Even St. Louis de Montfort, who was arguably amongst the most pious and devoted to the Blessed Mother said: “I avow, with all the Church, that Mary, being a mere creature that has come from the hands of the Most High, is in comparison with His Infinite Majesty less than an atom; or rather, she is nothing at all, because only He is ‘He Who Is’”
I’d like to end with a quote from St. Louis de Montfort:
“Mary is the fruitful Virgin, and in all the souls in which she comes to dwell she causes to flourish purity of heart and body, rightness of intention and abundance of good works. Do not imagine that Mary, the most fruitful of creatures who gave birth to a God, remains barren in a faithful soul. It will be she who makes the soul live incessantly for Jesus Christ, and will make Jesus live in the soul” (True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin).
“Let no one presume to expect mercy from God, who offends His holy Mother.”
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Thepeug
Guest
Mary,
Great joke! I’ll have to pass it along. Also, thanks for the thorough explanation. As an Episcopalian whose never had any experience with Marian devotion, I can accept and am even attracted to the idea that Mary can put in a good word for us and that, like all the other saints, she is looking out for us. And mrs4nta, I understand what you’re saying about Mary’s power being from God. I still think that some Catholics get too carried away with Marian devotion, however. The following quote from St. Alphonsus’ “The Glories of Mary” is a prime example:
“At the command of Mary all obey, even God. She is omnipotent, for the Queen according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King; and since the son’s power also belongs to the Mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son.” Chapter 6, page 114.
If the Mary “enjoys the same privileges as the King,” then she is equal to God. And the idea that God obeys Mary’s commands, that God is submissive to Mary: ridiculous.
I know I’m being a bit harsh, but nothing makes me more uncomfortable then quotes like the above, in which a saint of the church accords to Mary the same (and in this case even more) powers than God. Any thoughts?
In Christ,
Chris
Great joke! I’ll have to pass it along. Also, thanks for the thorough explanation. As an Episcopalian whose never had any experience with Marian devotion, I can accept and am even attracted to the idea that Mary can put in a good word for us and that, like all the other saints, she is looking out for us. And mrs4nta, I understand what you’re saying about Mary’s power being from God. I still think that some Catholics get too carried away with Marian devotion, however. The following quote from St. Alphonsus’ “The Glories of Mary” is a prime example:
“At the command of Mary all obey, even God. She is omnipotent, for the Queen according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King; and since the son’s power also belongs to the Mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son.” Chapter 6, page 114.
If the Mary “enjoys the same privileges as the King,” then she is equal to God. And the idea that God obeys Mary’s commands, that God is submissive to Mary: ridiculous.
I know I’m being a bit harsh, but nothing makes me more uncomfortable then quotes like the above, in which a saint of the church accords to Mary the same (and in this case even more) powers than God. Any thoughts?
In Christ,
Chris
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mrS4ntA
Guest
Don’t take the claim too literally, of course!
Mary does “enjoy the same priviledges as the King,” but insofar as that priviledges are given to her; whereas Christ the King enjoys those same priviledges by His own nature. i.e. No one gives Him those priviledges, they are truly His own – which, of course, He can share with whomever He wishes at His own pleasure. Hence, the claim of Mary’s priviledges and her “omnipotence”. By degree, it follows then, Christ’s priviledges which comes from no one but Himself is far more superior that Mary’s, which comes from Him.
Likewise, the same logic must be applied to the claim that “at the command of Mary all obey, even God.” Taken literally without logic, of course this statement will sound absurd. Since Mary has been crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth, the mediatrix of all graces and enjoys the same priviledges as the King - it is indeed ‘to her liking that she distributes the graces from God.’ But isn’t Mary already in Heaven, united with the Blessed Trinity, fully in communion with her Son? It is then even more absurd to think that her wills will ever be against the Almighty’s! As I said, God has decreed that this humble handmaid of His be His vessel through which He carries out His salvation plan - this doesn’t stop at the cross of Calvary, this includes the distribution of graces to us on earth!
Hence, the claims.
There’s nothing wrong with them, and I carry them to my heart.
*Oh Holy Mary, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech thee from the bottom of my heart to succour me in my necessity.
There are none that can withstand thy power.
Oh Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that any one who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided.*
In Christ, through Mary,
S4ntA.
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Heathen_Dawn
Guest
Not so. First, I’m not an American, and second, Wicca originated in Britain (started by a British civil servant, Gerald Gardner, in the late 1940s).
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UnworthySoul
Guest
God Bless you Shari and welcome home!!!
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UnworthySoul
Guest
I submit to the authority of God alone and not to any man on the Earth (as in someone like the pope). Of course I do submit to my pastor - but to a point, when he is wrong God is then the final authority. I truly believe that the position of the pope is unbiblical and the Roman Catholic church give the man (pope) too much authority. I totally reject the pope and I will stay in communion with Jesus Christ!
Interesting that you say you submit to your pator except when he is wrong. How do you determine when he is wrong? Does tell you and not him? Are you not, in fact, propping yourself up as your own pope?
Yes, I am Catholic (Universal), but I am not Roman Catholic (or any “rite”). Jesus is my Lord and Savior, and I have received Him with an open heart, mind and spirit and trust Him totally for my salvation alone!
I’m sure your pastor has too, and I’m sure you both think you’re right, so what happens when you two disagree? Are you always right in what you think God wants? If that’s so, why does God give YOU the right answer and not your pastor?
Honest questions here, no offense intended.
Interesting that you say you submit to your pator except when he is wrong. How do you determine when he is wrong? Does tell you and not him? Are you not, in fact, propping yourself up as your own pope?
Yes, I am Catholic (Universal), but I am not Roman Catholic (or any “rite”). Jesus is my Lord and Savior, and I have received Him with an open heart, mind and spirit and trust Him totally for my salvation alone!
I’m sure your pastor has too, and I’m sure you both think you’re right, so what happens when you two disagree? Are you always right in what you think God wants? If that’s so, why does God give YOU the right answer and not your pastor?
Honest questions here, no offense intended.
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UnworthySoul
Guest
Then why did Jesus have John the Baptist indeed baptize Him with water?When Jesus was talking about being born of water, He was refering to natural birth from the mother’s womb. This is where we understand the fact of the first birth and the second birth (second birth being one who is “born again” from John 3:3).
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Peg
Guest
Unworthy Soul, Jesus told his Apostles to submit to proper authority. He also clearly gave authority to the Apostles. No where in the New Testament does it tell us that this not longer applies. When we do not submit to proper authority, we are no longer protected by their authority. One of the main themes of the Whole Bible is obedience. Obedience has not meaning if we just change churches when we disagree.
On another forum, I read the conversion story of a man who was a minister. He met a woman who was divorced. Before he got into a committed relationship with her, he took it to his board of directors and there was not problem. After the became serious about the woman, they changed his mind and had him removed. How biblical is it for the sheep to fire the shepard? I find this whole concept very upsetting. He also spoke of another pastor that was let go because he was getting older. How does that square with christianity?
On another forum, I read the conversion story of a man who was a minister. He met a woman who was divorced. Before he got into a committed relationship with her, he took it to his board of directors and there was not problem. After the became serious about the woman, they changed his mind and had him removed. How biblical is it for the sheep to fire the shepard? I find this whole concept very upsetting. He also spoke of another pastor that was let go because he was getting older. How does that square with christianity?
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UnworthySoul
Guest
Heathen Dawn:
If that is the case, and it is what you base your beliefs on, where is the factual basis for your gods?
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UnworthySoul
Guest
One thought from this catholic, St. Alphonsus is wrong. Pretty simple.
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