Non-Catholics on these boards...

[briand]

Thepeug:

Heathen Dawn,

Just because Adam and Eve are, in my opinon, the “first humans” in a more allegorical than a literal sense doesn’t change the fact that somewhere along the line we screwed things up, and so suffer the consequences today.

God bless,

Chris

I sometimes wonder about us “we”. I for one would rather burn in eternal fire then to be the one that caused another one to “fall”. A deep charactor flaw I am sure but it really bothers me. Its like a great great great grandparrent makes a mistake so we torture the baby child forever because of it. Now I accept that I, personally fell, many ways many times, but it was my fall, it was not Adam or eve or for that matter God’s fault, it was mine.

As for evolution, I find the idea of being a cosmic accident or even mistake much more comforting then being a spiritually dead eternal reprobated enemy of God from the foundations of the universe. I dont want to be God’s enemy. I actually dont want to be anyones enemy, another charactor flaw on my part.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

SPOKENWORD:

A FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST. IM HERE TO ADD MY TWO CENTS OF GODLY WISDOM. HOPEFULLY WE CAN LEARN FROM EACH OTHER AND NOT DEVIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST. AMEN

With folks like you, it helps us all to learn from each other…and not divide the Body of Christ.

Thanks!

:tiphat:

 

[SPOKENWORD]

With folks like you, it helps us all to learn from each other…and not divide the Body of Christ.

Thanks!

:tiphat:
[/quote]

Veronica, God Bless you for you kind words. It is a fruit of the Spirit. I sincerly hope we can as christians learn from each other. I learn more about God every day,thanks to christians as yourself who are here to learn and not cause strife…

 

[Susanna]

Heathen Dawn:

Original Sin is another one of those beliefs that are in defiance of the facts—not just unproved (like my beliefs about the Gods are) but disproved.

Hi HD—

Took me a while to catch up after being away for a few days… I am curious— what is it that causes you to believe original sin is “in defiance of the facts” and even according to your belief “disproved”?

I would suggest there is plenty of evidence found by studying human nature and human history to prove that it does exist. What do you call this universal human propensity to do what is sinful— or if you prefer wrong or evil–which is found in every corner of the earth and throughout human history?

 

[milimac]

briand:

Its like a great great great grandparrent makes a mistake so we torture the baby child forever because of it. Now I accept that I, personally fell, many ways many times, but it was my fall, it was not Adam or eve or for that matter God’s fault, it was mine.

I think the word “sin” is what confuses. When we think of sin, usually we immediately think of personal sin. Original Sin isn’t as easy a concept to grasp (and I’m not claiming that my grasp is all that better).

However, I heard an analogy (possibly from Catholic Answers) that I think comes closer to the concept of Original Sin. It’s as if your great grandfather lost the largest goldmine in the state of California during a careless gamble while playing poker. It’s not YOUR fault he lost it, but you’re a lot less well off today than you would’ve been had he not lost it. It’s the financial condition you’re in today due to the mistake your great grandfather made many many years ago.

My personal opinion is that Adam also has the opportunity for salvation. His sin wasn’t any worse than ours. He just happened to be first. We probably all would’ve done it eventually if we were in his place. Didn’t Christ also take on the punishment Adam deserved for his sin? I think I have heard a theory that Adam would be the last one to be released from Purgatory.

briand:

I sometimes wonder about us “we”. I for one would rather burn in eternal fire then to be the one that caused another one to “fall”.

I can understand your feelings, but every time we sin we cause another to fall. Even those sins you think are private and just between you and God have an effect on those around you. It’s just that some sins have a more obvious and visible effect on others and some work in more subtle ways to affect others.

To “rather burn in eternal fire” for a repented sin would seem to be saying that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t sufficient.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Susanna:

I am curious— what is it that causes you to believe original sin is “in defiance of the facts” and even according to your belief “disproved”?

The premise that we are descended from two parents who committed the Original Sin is no longer tenable.

I would suggest there is plenty of evidence found by studying human nature and human history to prove that it does exist. What do you call this universal human propensity to do what is sinful— or if you prefer wrong or evil–which is found in every corner of the earth and throughout human history?

You mean like killing for sport? Chimpanzees do that too. I wouldn’t call it Original Sin, I’d call it an inclination to do evil, and it’s emerged in our species from embryonic beginnings in the other Great Apes (cf chimpanzees again).

Anyway, I can’t take seriously the notion that the world was once perfect and then became cursed. Predation dates back 3,000 million years from now.

 

[Thepeug]

milimac:

However, I heard an analogy (possibly from Catholic Answers) that I think comes closer to the concept of Original Sin. It’s as if your great grandfather lost the largest goldmine in the state of California during a careless gamble while playing poker. It’s not YOUR fault he lost it, but you’re a lot less well off today than you would’ve been had he not lost it. It’s the financial condition you’re in today due to the mistake your great grandfather made many many years ago.

Milimac,

Isn’t this explanation closer to an Orthodox understanding of Original Sin, whereby we suffer the consequences of Adam’s sin but do not share the guilt?

In Christ,

Chris

 

[Susanna]

Heathen Dawn:

We’re not descended from just one man and one woman, that’s how.

Ahhhh—should have read further! So I am guessing you think original sin is a physically inherited defect? —that there would need to be some common gene to pass on?

I guess you take the Scriptures— or at least assume those of us who do believe take the Scripture verses in the creation stories quite literally?

Actually that isn’t the case as I mentioned earlier the first 11 chapters of Genesis are** inspired myth.** That means they are stories written by those chosen by God to reveal sacred truths about humans, God and the relationship we have to and with God. I think it is fascinating-- and in fact points to a divine source because these stories have transcended the limitations of time and man’s intellectual evolution to remain just as relevent today as they were thousands of years ago when mankind did not possess the same level of intellectual sophistication and scientific understanding. These stories spoke to the heart and soul of mankind thousands of years ago just as they do today–despite the vast differences intellectual and spiritual evolution have rendered in mankind over the millennia. This is amazing and it is possible only because these stories reveal truths (not historical facts) of human nature, God and human existence that we were made to undertand at the deepest level of our beings— Your comment that you know it is not true because we do not descend from just one man and woman seems to indicate you are focusing on an archetype of mankind and turning it into a historical fact—or at least you are assuming that is how Catholics view it.

If I had to put it in my own words to someone who does not believe I would say that the story of the fall of Adam and Eve (original sin) explains how when mankind became sentient, self aware and developed intellect the ability to reason he developed the ability (free will) to do as he chooses (eating the apple from the forbidden tree)— he then became different then the animals who are driven by instincts and hormones to behave in conditioned ways to other creatures and their environment—an animal cannot behave immorally or morally— they just respond to the stimuli around them— man due to his ability to reason can choose through the free will this gives him to consciously choose to do what is right, moral or just— or he can choose to behave in immoral, evil and unjust ways. At one point in time we were more like other animals —then we"evolved" into rational, intellectual animals and this incredible development in the human being came with great potential to choose to do great good as well as great harm— to others and the environment.

As a person of faith I would explain the fall in very much the same way EXCEPT that all of this was directed by God’s original plan. God designed us from the beginning to become rational intelligent creatures— it was not by accident that we became the only reasoning, self-aware, and intellectual creatures on earth. God willed it to be this way from the beginning. Original sin is not a genetic thing passed on through common parentage it is part and parcel with our becoming rational, intellectual beings with free will.
Have a great weekend HD!

 

[Merilee]

I’m a non-Catholic. :tiphat:

 

[Thepeug]

Awesome explanation, Susanna! You articulated many of my own opinions concerning Genesis and the creation myth that I’ve been trying to figure out for awhile, but haven’t been able to properly verbalize.

God bless,

Chris.

 

[Malachi4U]

Hey mango,

I hope you still visit this thread, I liked to see your posts.

Malachi4U

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

It may show that they are at least open to the True Faith. Perhaps they are just starting their journey home.​

I am home in a Protestant Church. I come here to chat and see different opinions.

 

[Little_Mary]

Merilee:

I’m a non-Catholic. :tiphat:

Welcome, Merilee. I hope you enjoy being here.

 

[Little_Mary]

Lilyofthevalley:

It may show that they are at least open to the True Faith. Perhaps they are just starting their journey home.​

I am home in a Protestant Church. I come here to chat and see different opinions.

Lily,
You may feel at home in your protestant church, but when we refer to a journey home we are referring to our (and yours) true home, the Catholic Church that Christ gave us.

I’m glad you’re here to chat and see different opinions. That’s why I’m here too. I am learning a tremendous amount and as a result am growing spiritually. To see (or try to see) where someone else is coming from on a subject we all hold so dear to our hearts is fascinating.

 

[Shari]

Monarchy:

My understanding is that the rosary was created as a way for illiterate people to ‘memorize’ the psalms. There are 150 psalms and if you pray the rosary three times (reflecting on the holy misteries at the end) you have said 150 prayers. It was a way for them to show their devotion even though they could not read. (someone correct me if I am wrong)

Actually, I think please let me know if I am mistaken, Blessed Mary gave us the rosary and they are to help us reflect on the mysteries of Jesus’s life. The hail marys in between the mysteries are to help keep focus on the mystery we are on. I could be wrong, it’s happened before. However I have never heard of using it to memorize the psalms. Besides there are 4 sets of mysteries, Joyful, sorrowful, glorious and luminous.

 

[Eric_Goodrich]

Christ gave us salvation. He did not come and start a church. Those who follow Christ started the Church. That’s why we are called Christians. Christ told us that when a few of us are gathered in His name, He will be there with us. He didn’t specify what denomination! That is the beauty of ‘faith’, salvation is a personal thing. You are not “Saved” because of where you go. I could go to Mass every Sunday and not receive salvation if I don’t believe that Christ died for me. That is why the whole “Church” debate is moot, the saving grace of Christ is for me, not because of what Church I belong to. I know I am saved, it is my duty to spread the Good News to everyone else. So stop wasting your energy debating whether Mary did this, if purgatory exists, or what the chalis should be made of, and get out on your block and witness for Christ. Your preaching to the Choir here. Christians already have the message! If you believe that since I go to a Lutheran Church that I am not Saved, I hope you are more kind when you witness to those who have not heard of Jesus.

 

[briand]

milimac:

snip
I can understand your feelings, but every time we sin we cause another to fall. Even those sins you think are private and just between you and God have an effect on those around you. It’s just that some sins have a more obvious and visible effect on others and some work in more subtle ways to affect others.

To “rather burn in eternal fire” for a repented sin would seem to be saying that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t sufficient.

I appriciate what you said as for Christ’s sacrifice not being sufficient, every single day I am a Christian I am constantly reminded of one thing, it was not, is not, and never will be good enough. I know that is a lie, but it is a constant drumb beat. I remember crying my eyes out at the movie “The Passion” for one over riding reason, it was just not enough, they want more. I cant explain it any better then that, but when you learn from day one, you are filthy reprobated soul born spiritually dead and loathed by God eternally, then one magic night you were changed over to being God’s friend. But still you are a filty reprobated soul bla bla bla bla. Spiritually dead filthy works nothing good in you and so on.

I understand the “logic” and the reasons folks say this but if often leads to just total futility frustration and eventually burn out. Again thank you for your kind answer.

 

[Cindy]

Eric Goodrich:

Christ gave us salvation. He did not come and start a church. Those who follow Christ started the Church.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

 

[mrS4ntA]

Shari:

Actually, I think please let me know if I am mistaken, Blessed Mary gave us the rosary and they are to help us reflect on the mysteries of Jesus’s life. The hail marys in between the mysteries are to help keep focus on the mystery we are on. I could be wrong, it’s happened before. However I have never heard of using it to memorize the psalms. Besides there are 4 sets of mysteries, Joyful, sorrowful, glorious and luminous.

That was then, early Christians were mostly Jews, and their private prayers take form in mostly reciting Psalms…

 

[LourdesladyN]

Good Morning HD,

I apologize for being so long in responding. I find your answers interesting, yet still ambiguous.
Heathen Dawn:

LourdesladyN,

I don’t understand what exactly you’re getting at. If you’re asking if I believe in a higher power or authority, then yes, I do, and in fact I believe in many of Them.

Could you please give me a name…this is very important…name your deity please. Could you give me the history of these deities and the worship traditions of men and these deities?
Heathen Dawn:

Magic causes change in reality either through manipulation of natural energies (same as heating water turns it into vapour) or by asking the Gods to exert Their control over nature and cause a change.

Let’s take a close look at this:
The word magic MEANS illusion------something we perceive to be there, that isn’t. ILLUSION. Your tradition using this word makes the faith itself false, doesn’t it?

The word used in the Christian tradition is MYSTERY-----the definition and foundation of that word means “something that we cannot see yet we know is there.”

These gods of which you speak…How is it that they have this supposed power over nature? What is the history known to us that this power is there…or that they even exist? Please give me some reading material that is tangible…I’d like to see anything that was written in ancient Greece or Egypt (3500 BC) that describes events that can be followed by the tradition of men through today…anything that shows a tangible history of practice of this specific worship of the above named deity. Also the foundation by which mankind has seen this specific deities power over nature.
Heathen Dawn:

To sin is to go against the Gods, and its effect is estrangement from the Gods. For example, if I steal from someone, the Gods shun me, They don’t hear my prayers, They put misfortune in my life.

Where are the laws of your gods found? When were they written and how were they transmitted? By what authority do they shun you? Who gives them that power? Who created them and how do you know this is true? What is the history of your unnamed deities inception and authority?
Heathen Dawn:

I hope I’ve done something in the way of answering you. If I have not, it’s because I didn’t understand the goal of your questions.

Thanks-----------I have tried to be more specific and less obtuse. Be in God’s Peace,