Non-Catholics on these boards...

[1962Missal]

Shari, You are making a huge mistake. You are going to submit to an authority that is not from God. You have to choose between Rome and the Scriptures – sola ecclesia vs. sola scriptura. Choose the God-breathed Scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you into all the truth written therein. The Pope has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit. :nope:

The problem lies in trying to impose an either Sola Scriptura or Sola Ecclesia dichotomy upon the believer. You attempt to make it appear that authority and truth must be based upon either Scripture or the Church and that if one is true then must, ipso facto, be false. That is well and good but has nothing to do with what the Church teaches.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION

It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

This is the authoritative teaching of the Church. If you misrepresent it, then you are bearing false witness and violating the Commandments.

Justin

p.s. If you bother to follow the link, you can read the entire document. If you want to interact here in anything like a meaningful way, I strongly suggest you do so.

 

[1962Missal]

Ric:

I think not, for we all know that the Bereans even examining the Scriptures daily to see what Paul said was true (Acts 17:10-12). And even Paul asked whom ever he preached to needed to examen the Scriptures to see what ever he said was true (Galatians 1:6-9).

Before we get any farther along here, lets look a little closer at the Bereans.

The Noble Bereans – Sola Scriptura at Work?

Justin

 

[Shari]

1962Missal:

The problem lies in trying to impose an either Sola Scriptura or Sola Ecclesia dichotomy upon the believer. You attempt to make it appear that authority and truth must be based upon either Scripture or the Church and that if one is true then must, ipso facto, be false. That is well and good but has nothing to do with what the Church teaches.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION

This is the authoritative teaching of the Church. If you misrepresent it, then you are bearing false witness and violating the Commandments.

Justin

p.s. If you bother to follow the link, you can read the entire document. If you want to interact here in anything like a meaningful way, I strongly suggest you do so.

Well said. Thanks

 

[II_Paradox_II]

I’m not catholic (reformed by confession). Probably won’t post much on this board though as I don’t have enough time…

ken

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

potterygirl:

I found that most of those in Pagan worship are the most lost (the ones that I met).

What do you mean by that? They’re lost because they’re pagans, or it’s a characteristic of lost people that they engage in pagan worship?

Most intelligent people should know that Wiccans do not sacrifice babies or animals. Thank goodness.

That is correct. Magical ritual takes the place of animal sacrifice as a means of pleasing the Gods.

After trying the Pagan thing, I realized that what I was looking for all along was my reflection in the stained glass of the Catholic Church. That feminine balance that I was searching for in wicca or paganism is found in Catholicism with Mary. And the many gods and goddesses that are called upon is similar (not the same as)to the numerous Saints that have a story to tell as well and actions that are excellent role models for anyone.

There is incense that is present in the Catholic Church to celebrate the same thing that Wiccans celebrate…the AIR! And we Catholics breathe in the air that’s the breath of God.

You admit the similarities between Catholicism and Wicca … interesting! I wrote about that in an article defending those who practice Catholic Craft. Catholic Craft or Christian Wicca is a merger of the two paths—worshipping Jesus and Mary the Wiccan way.

I tell ya…I don’t know which has been harder based on the treatment that I got from close friends who knew I was searching for the divine…telling them I was interested in Wicca/Paganism or joining the Catholic Church. All gave shocked looks.

This just goes to show the ignorance of people about religion all around.

Humans are tribal animals, quick to condemn those outside of their group.

Blessed be!

 

[Gruffy]

I’m very curious… For Ric and other non-Catholics:

1. What version of the Bible are you reading? Catholic version? King James’ version? Other versions?
2. In what language(s)? What is the print date? How many books are included in the OT and NT? Is your NT version translated from Greek and Hebrew texts? Or is your NT version translated from subsequent Latin or texts of other languages? Are you confident that your version is without error or omission?
3. Do you place the basis of salvation solely in your version? Must you physically have a copy of your version in hand and be able to read and interpret it to be saved? Does faith alone mean that you need not live such faith accordinlgy? How can you tell if your Pastor’s interpretation is wrong and what basis do you have to correct him when you believe so?
4. Are you confident that you are capable of discerning all of God’s Word, correctly and fully, as the Apostles did? With what training, qualification, reason, and authority?

Just curious!

Peter

 

[potterygirl]

Heathen Dawn:

You admit the similarities between Catholicism and Wicca … interesting! I wrote about that in an article defending those who practice Catholic Craft. Catholic Craft or Christian Wicca is a merger of the two paths—worshipping Jesus and Mary the Wiccan way.

Blessed be!

And from other Wiccan Scholars…you cannot practice both. Try over at www.mysticwicks.com and read up on the forums.

no sweet pea I did not say they have similarities when referring to worship. I don’t worship Mary, I worship one God and I honor Mary. BIG DIFFERENCE!

I just stated that Catholicism has that Balance of feminity that I believe needs to exist. And many Pagans that I have spoken with who converted as well to Cathlocism stated they too were lost and were looking to the wrong female for guidance. I didn’t go to Catholicism bc of just that. I went there bc the Virgin Mary came to me in my hour of need when I called out to God…not Gods or Goddesses. After following in the Pagan path for over 4 years I think I would understand and I was very active with the online communities and saw it everyday with new members.

God also told me to throw out everything in my house that was centered around Paganism and I would be helped. I did. And I was overwhelmingly helped by people around me in my time of need.

God also gave me the power of sight and I saw my own future in a flash. So I changed over pretty quick.

To be honest, it’s not the Catholics that you need to worry about “disrespecting” your path…it’s the Protestant Fundamentalists that you need to be worried with. At least you won’t hear…Turn or Burn from us! LOL!

Blessed…yes I am!

 

[Shibboleth]

Gruffy:

I’m very curious… For Ric and other non-Catholics:

1. What version of the Bible are you reading? Catholic version? King James’ version? Other versions?
2. In what language(s)? What is the print date? How many books are included in the OT and NT? Is your NT version translated from Greek and Hebrew texts? Or is your NT version translated from subsequent Latin or texts of other languages? Are you confident that your version is without error or omission?
3. Do you place the basis of salvation solely in your version? Must you physically have a copy of your version in hand and be able to read and interpret it to be saved? Does faith alone mean that you need not live such faith accordinlgy? How can you tell if your Pastor’s interpretation is wrong and what basis do you have to correct him when you believe so?
4. Are you confident that you are capable of discerning all of God’s Word, correctly and fully, as the Apostles did? With what training, qualification, reason, and authority?

Just curious!

Peter

I have many Bibles in my library and I use them all. When I need a quick reference I use my Zondervan NASB Study Bible, but I use my Douay-Rheims Bible quite often also for cross reference. I have a Geneva Bible, a Hebrew Names Version, and of course a KJV. The KJV I rarely use unless I want eloquent words. I have two exhaustive concordances and I am saving up for an Ancient Greek Lexicon.

On my computer I have a program that has the original Greek and Hebrew writings, and I can cross reference them with any of the Bibles listed above.

Below is an example I often use…

Of ten I use the words and writings of the Greek Church fathers to figure out what exactly a word should mean or does not mean. For instance in 1 Cor 6:9 the word “arsenokoites” is often interprete4d to mean “homosexual” but this might very well be an incorrect translation. The word “arsenokoites” is made up of two words meaning “man” and “bed” and might just be referring to male prostitutes.

We get a good idea that this word does not mean homosexuals because when John Christendom spoke on homosexuality he did not use the word “arsenokoites.” And when he preached on 1Cor 6:9 he did not mention homosexuality. Seeing as he lived around 300 B.C. he should know what this word means especially since his first language was Greek.

Hope this helps…

 

[Ric]

Gruffy:

I’m very curious… For Ric and other non-Catholics:

1. What version of the Bible are you reading? Catholic version? King James’ version? Other versions?

Well, I have three main favorite translations I use - the NASB (New American Standard Bible) the ESV (English Standard Version) and the NIV (New International Version).

The NASB and the ESV are a “word for word” translation from the original Greek and Hebrew, and the NIV is more like a thought for thought translation from the original languages.

I also use a copy of the original Greek NT (compiled from all copies we have), but not the Hebrew. I have not learned Hebrew yet.

Plus I do use about fifteen to twenty different translations of Scripture from time to time.

Gruffy:

1. In what language(s)? What is the print date? How many books are included in the OT and NT? Is your NT version translated from Greek and Hebrew texts? Or is your NT version translated from subsequent Latin or texts of other languages? Are you confident that your version is without error or omission?

First off, no translation is without error. The print dates vary with all of the translations I use. All translations I have contain all of the 66 books of Scripture known to man kind. Some of the other translations I have contain the Apocrypha. And I believe all of the translations I use daily are translated straight from the original a languages.

Gruffy:

1. Do you place the basis of salvation solely in your version? Must you physically have a copy of your version in hand and be able to read and interpret it to be saved? Does faith alone mean that you need not live such faith accordinlgy? How can you tell if your Pastor’s interpretation is wrong and what basis do you have to correct him when you believe so?

No one version is 100% accerate, and I place my salvation solely with Jesus. Salvation is understandable from every uncuropted translation of the Scriptures ever printed in any language.

I really don’t understand your faith question?

And the Holy Spirit leads us in the understanding of the Scriptures if we don’t place our own self judgements before the Scriptures (sad to say that happens a lot).

Gruffy:

1. Are you confident that you are capable of discerning all of God’s Word, correctly and fully, as the Apostles did? With what training, qualification, reason, and authority?

Just curious!

Peter

No one can get every single word or thought of Scripture correct, but we do understand about most of it accuracy. But training does help one understand the Scriptures correctly, but no amount of training will be good enough if one does not listen to the Holy Spirit while studying the Scriptures.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

potterygirl:

And from other Wiccan Scholars…you cannot practice both.

Wiccans are supposed to be open-minded, but when it comes to anything to do with Christianity, they can be fanatics.

Try over at www.mysticwicks.com and read up on the forums.

Ah, Mystic Wicks. They’re a good forum—good at treating people like dirt and banning them; not good at anything else.

I don’t worship Mary, I worship one God and I honor Mary. BIG DIFFERENCE!

I know that…

I just stated that Catholicism has that Balance of feminity that I believe needs to exist. And many Pagans that I have spoken with who converted as well to Cathlocism stated they too were lost and were looking to the wrong female for guidance.

The traffic runs both ways. On that blasted forum you linked to, there’s a sizeable share of ex-Catholic pagans.

I went there bc the Virgin Mary came to me in my hour of need when I called out to God…not Gods or Goddesses.

OK, if that’s the answer you got from on high, then that’s your path.

To be honest, it’s not the Catholics that you need to worry about “disrespecting” your path…it’s the Protestant Fundamentalists that you need to be worried with. At least you won’t hear…Turn or Burn from us! LOL!

Here’s a forum I still post in: ExWitch, run by fundamentalist Protestants heaven-bent on saving pagans. I’m on good terms with them.

 

[Cindy]

Hi Ric,

I enjoy reading your posts. I admire your zeal for the Lord and your love of Scripture. You speak a lot about “truth.” I’m just wondering how it is that you determine the truth? What makes you so certain that what you believe and proclaim to be true is in fact objective truth? There are plenty of other Protestants who would disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. (For example, even Martin Luther didn’t believe your particular view of baptism.) Who has the final say? Do you see the problem?

There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations that all claim the Bible as their sole authority, and yet they all disagree with one another. Scores of Protestant theologians – men who know far more about Scripture than either you or I – continue to disagree on central theological issues. How are we to determine whose interpretation of Scripture is correct? Whether we are Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Lutheran, Reformed, non-denominational, Orthodox, Catholic, or whatever – we all read the Bible through some kind of tradition. How do we know with certainty whose interpretation of Scripture is true?

When I was a Protestant, I studied Scripture diligently and then I chose the denomination that best agreed with my interpretation. I was, in fact, my own final authority. How prideful and arrogant I was! But the Lord softened my heart and I eventually began to see that I didn’t know quite as much as I thought, certainly not more than the Church that Christ Himself founded 2000 years ago – the Church of which He said the gates of hell would never prevail against. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe – just maybe – you could be wrong, too? It is possible to be sincere, and yet to be sincerely wrong.

My husband and I used to work for a prominent Protestant apologetics organization. We had staff members from several different denominations and we often engaged in heated theological debates. It eventually became clear that we were never going to settle our disputes using the Bible alone. It simply doesn’t work.

Our Lord established a Church to teach in His Name and He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide her into all Truth. Do you really believe that the disunity, doctrinal confusion, and moral collapse within Protestantism is the work of the Holy Spirit? If we truly love the Lord and desire to follow Him – as I’m sure you do – we will indeed want to follow him in the fullness of Truth.

I would encourage you to study Church history and to read the writings of the early Church Fathers with an open mind. You just might be surprised by what you find.

God bless you!

Cindy
P.S. BTW, would you be surprised to know that you already accept a Tradition of the Catholic Church that isn’t taught in the Bible? I’m referring to the canon of Scripture. It was the bishops of the Catholic Church at the end of the 4th century who, led by the Holy Spirit, infallibly determined which books belong in the Bible. If you accept the canon of Scripture, you accept an authoritative Tradition of the Catholic Church.

 

[Little_Mary]

Hesed:

Shari,

Aren’t there many different interpretations of what Rome teaches? Aren’t we just adding another tier to what needs interpreting: the Scriptures + The Pope? Why do Scott Hahn and Gerry Matatics differ if Rome only has one way of being interpreted? Why do some Catholics – like Mel Gibson – believe differently than others? Then there are all kinds of Roman Catholics (conservative, liberal, traditionalist, American, etc…). Which are right and which are wrong? Jesus gave us teachers like elders to expound and teach the Word of God? But they are subservient to it’s authority. They are to be rejected if they don’t rightly divide the truth. Do you have that freedom? No, you have to submit to your final authority: Rome. I’d rather stick to an authority that is God-breathed.

You just threw a bunch of words together here.
No, there are not many different interpretations of what Rome teaches. Scott Hahn, Gerry M. and Mel Gibson believe what all other Catholics believe and all are in concert with Rome. The Catholic Church is*** right*** because she follows Jesus. Her authority IS God-breathed. You choose not to see that.

 

[La_Chiara]

Cindy–Your post to Ric was excellent. Your points and your personal experience with both Protestant and Catholic Christianity were well made. It seems to me that the most effective Catholic apologists are former Protestants. As a Cradle Catholic, I struggle with the vocabulary and the frame of reference of Protestants who challenge the Catholic faith. So I appreciate it when someone like you is able to speak from having been both Protestant and a convert to Catholicism.

 

[potterygirl]

Cindy! That was awesome!

 

[donadei]

1. The Holy Rosary is a beautiful, meditative form or prayer where you recount the life of Jesus, **His ** ministry and His mother and as such, gains us countless merits through which we can model our lives around that of Christ’s and His blessed mother.
Through it, too, we invokes Mary’s holy name to ask God’s graces and blessings; for if we honour the mother, we glorify the Son; and what Son would not the request of His mother?

1. There are usually seven prayers included in the Rosary: the Apostles’ Creed, the Our Father, the Hail Mary, the minor Doxology (Glory Be), the Fatima prayer, Hail Holy Queen and the concluding prayer. All of the above are directed towards God
   , whether directly or indirectly. The Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen prayers are ultimately prayers that glorify the Holy Trinity by honoring His Mother/Spouse/Son.
2. The formula (ten hail Marys) indicates the length of the meditation of each decade of the mysteries (Glorious, Sorrowful, Joyful, Luminous). Also, it helps focus the mind and heart to the meditaion. Besides, who doesn’t like to say “I love you” to someone they really love repetitively to express his love? Would you just say “I love you” once to your wife on your wedding day and never ever say it again? Jesus condemned **vain ** repetition, not a heart-felt one.
3. The Rosary, like the Church, evolved and developed. They are not something that expressedly stated, but the practice is allowed in the Bible, nevertheless. Early Christians did practice similar form of prayers using the Psalms instead of Hail Marys. Would the repetitiveness be condemned, too?

Thank you, mrS4ntA, for your posts. I would like to add something in response to Ric’s questions:

1. Why pray the Rosary? Because we love the LORD. Like what mrS4ntA said, it is a meditative form of prayer. It is a way of contemplating on Jesus’ life, passion, and glory.

There are 4 types of prayers: adoration, contrition, thanksgiving, and supplication. All of these are in the Rosary.

1. Whom do we pray to? The LORD. The Rosary is the sum total of our faith, a synopsis, if you will. It is about the salvation history. It is about our longing to be with God in heaven. It is about our sadness over our sins, recongnizing them in humility, and asking for God’s grace to keep us from the Evil One.
2. Why repetitive? Oh, when you love someone, how many times do you say your feelings to the person? Also, you can read in the Book of Revelation how the heavenly hosts bow before the throne of Our GOD in adoration day and night while saying “Holy, holy,…”
3. Scripture based? The LORD’s prayer is in the Bible. The first part of Hail Mary is in the Bible. Jesus’ life and passion make up the entire Gospels. What more could you ask?

 

[MariaG]

Hi Ric,

First off, you would be better off to start different threads for each of these different things so your questions and comments can be better addressed. (if you already have, sorry, this is my first day to these boards)

I will respond to some of your questions about the rosary.

1. I pray the rosary as a way to meditate/contemplate Christ’s Life. There are 4 different mysteries, the Joyful concentrate on his birth and early life, the Luminous are about His ministry, The Sorrowful are about His Death (Mel Gibson the Passion), and the Glorious are about His ressurection.
   As I say the prayers, it helps me to focus on each aspect of His life, death or resurrection. Sometimes during prayer my mind will wander, the rosary is a tool to help focus a persons thoughts and prayers.
2. All prayers are directed to God.
3. The repetitions are to give more time to contemplate each aspect of the mystery. For example: as I think about the first sorrowful mystery, The Agony in the Garden, I think of the pain and turmoil He must have had. Sometimes I start to cry when I think about the drops of blood He sweated at this time. The temptation He had to resist. Sometimes this turns into prayers for myself to help resist temptations. The prayers are simply a tool to focus and direct the prayers to God.

Further, I see you end all your posts with the same Scripture. I know this is not vain and repetious for you. Can you not see the same for me?

Do you even know what the Hail Mary is?

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Luke 1:28
Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus. Luke 1:42
Holy Mary, Mother of God, (We are all called to holiness, and she was the God’s mother if you believe in the Trinity)
Pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death. Amen.

The only line you should have any objections to is the last. The rest are Scripture or scriptural thoughts. The last line deserves its own thread, but we can get into scripture on another thread about where in the Scripture and church history we can ask for those who are alive in Christ to pray for us, just as easily as I can ask you to pray for me.

1. Many of the prayers of the rosary are simply scripture and the Bible tells us all scripture is profitable. Also, I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where it tells us NOT to study, contemplate and pray about Christ’s Life.

I would encourage you to purchase a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can view it online, but it is harder to look up topics (like Mary). Some people in the Church do not understand what the church teaches. I am sure the experiences you had in the church were with people like that. I had a chat with someone on a different board who says they were taught by the CC that no people will go to Hell, only satan and demons. This simply is not true.

May God Bless you and the Holy Spirit guide you

 

[donadei]

Hesed:

Mormons say something similar to me, .

Hesed, are you referring to what you read in the link I gave you? I didn’t know that the Catholics and the Mormons have the same articles of faith?

 

[Mfaustina1]

MariaG-

What Rosary prayer guide do you use? I don’t remember seeing anything about Mel Gibson in any of mine! lol.

Just kidding, I couldn’t resist being a Weisenheimer. God bless and hope you don’t take any offense! - Mfaustina1

 

[Mfaustina1]

HeathenDawn-

I am curious. Were you always Wiccan? If not, what drew you to Wicca? What about it appeals to you and did you come from a Christian background? If so, why did you reject Christianity?

I hope you don’t mind answering these questions for me. Thanks! - Mfaustina1

 

[Ric]

Cindy:

Hi Ric,

I enjoy reading your posts. I admire your zeal for the Lord and your love of Scripture. You speak a lot about “truth.” I’m just wondering how it is that you determine the truth? What makes you so certain that what you believe and proclaim to be true is in fact objective truth? There are plenty of other Protestants who would disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. (For example, even Martin Luther didn’t believe your particular view of baptism.) Who has the final say? Do you see the problem?

There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations that all claim the Bible as their sole authority, and yet they all disagree with one another. Scores of Protestant theologians – men who know far more about Scripture than either you or I – continue to disagree on central theological issues. How are we to determine whose interpretation of Scripture is correct? Whether we are Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Lutheran, Reformed, non-denominational, Orthodox, Catholic, or whatever – we all read the Bible through some kind of tradition. How do we know with certainty whose interpretation of Scripture is true?

When I was a Protestant, I studied Scripture diligently and then I chose the denomination that best agreed with my interpretation. I was, in fact, my own final authority. How prideful and arrogant I was! But the Lord softened my heart and I eventually began to see that I didn’t know quite as much as I thought, certainly not more than the Church that Christ Himself founded 2000 years ago – the Church of which He said the gates of hell would never prevail against. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe – just maybe – you could be wrong, too? It is possible to be sincere, and yet to be sincerely wrong.

My husband and I used to work for a prominent Protestant apologetics organization. We had staff members from several different denominations and we often engaged in heated theological debates. It eventually became clear that we were never going to settle our disputes using the Bible alone. It simply doesn’t work.

Our Lord established a Church to teach in His Name and He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide her into all Truth. Do you really believe that the disunity, doctrinal confusion, and moral collapse within Protestantism is the work of the Holy Spirit? If we truly love the Lord and desire to follow Him – as I’m sure you do – we will indeed want to follow him in the fullness of Truth.

I would encourage you to study Church history and to read the writings of the early Church Fathers with an open mind. You just might be surprised by what you find.

God bless you!

Cindy
P.S. BTW, would you be surprised to know that you already accept a Tradition of the Catholic Church that isn’t taught in the Bible? I’m referring to the canon of Scripture. It was the bishops of the Catholic Church at the end of the 4th century who, led by the Holy Spirit, infallibly determined which books belong in the Bible. If you accept the canon of Scripture, you accept an authoritative Tradition of the Catholic Church.

How do I determine the truth? From careful study of 1 John 4, we are able to identify five distinguishing characteristics of the Holy Spirit’s work to show us truth. 1.) Exalts the true Christ, 2.) Opposes Satan’s interests, 3.) Points people to the Scriptures, 4.) Elevates truth, and 5.) Results in love for God and others.

Where all other denominations disagree with each other is where the denomination(s) places preconceived beliefs and traditions in front of Scripture and closes their eye/ears to the Holy Spirit. All denominations (including the Roman Catholic church) does this. I don’t care how many denominations there are out there as long as all Christians are in unity as far as the Gospel of Jesus Christ is concerned.

That was/is a problem in the Church as a whole, the fact that some people (Christian or non) and their prejudgements of Scripture does choose what denomination that fit’s their theology. And the sad fact is that we have pews filled every Sunday with true non-belivers (but I’m glad they are there, they just might hear the Gospel for once!).

Yes, using the Bible alone will work, if the group you are in will listen to the Holy Spirit - but sad to say that rarely happens. Pride is a bad thing, and people hate to be proven wrong.

Yes, Cindy, Our Lord did establish a Church to teach in His Name and He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide her into all Truth. We (all believers) are that Church, and on one church can lay a claim on being that Church! And we all have the Holy Spirit, we all just need to listen!

As for Church history, I have read some of it, but their is a awful lot to read! And for the Bible - all 66 Books or the one with the added books?

God Bless!