Not the same God?

[rinnie]

What does your “new gospel” teach, rinnie? What is your new ‘truth revealed’? If you claim, for example, that Jesus has revealed new teachings to you that contradict or ‘update’ Biblical doctrine … that it was not really He who died on the cross at Calvary, because He is eternal and cannot die … and that from this moment forward, all loyal Christians should now, in the name of God the Son, take up arms and kill all dissenters who do not accept your new gospel …

… then I would conclude that the being who appeared to you was NOT in fact the Jesus of the Bible, but someone or something else – a demon from hell, perhaps – seeking to impersonate Jesus to establish credibility. The characteristics of this apparition are incompatible with the Jesus of Scripture.

And if you follow his instruction, and mislead other people into following, and you thus abandon your belief in the teaching of the Jesus of the Bible, in favor of the teachings of this imposter, then you and your followers have to make a choice.

Do you now pray to the Jesus of the Bible, whose teachings contradict your ‘new revelation’, and come to your senses, and repent … or do you pray to this ‘newly-revealed’ Jesus? They are not the same person. One is God, the other is not.

Okay then tell me how can me and my friend pray to the same Jesus then, if we have different teaching’s. Then you are saying we cannot then?

Do not the teaching of the Jesus in the bible contradict the teaching of my friend that the Apostles have been given the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sin in his name.

So do I tell my friend to come to her senses, and until see can come to realize this true teaching of Jesus in the bible her Jesus is false?

 

[rinnie]

The scripture reveal how we are to test the spirits and how we are to determine who has the true Spirit of God;

Luke 10: 24 For I say to you, **many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it." **

John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.

2 John 7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist. 5
9 Anyone who is so “progressive” 7 as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;
11 for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

1 Timothy 6; 3 Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth,

1John 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
27 … But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.

1 John 4: 1 **Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, **…2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

IMHO this scripture reveals to me that Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses who proclaim to angels visions giving them another gospel long after Jesus’s gospel has to deal with this revelation of scripture.

Galatians 1: 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 **But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! **11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that **the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
12 For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. **

But Islam does not allow Muslims to hear or see this in light of the Holy Spirit.

This I totally agree with, If they did they could not only See the ONE true God, If they could have the Light of the Holy Spirit revealed to them, they could indeed see the ONE TRUE GOD, but also see him reveal himself in the 3 persons and still be ONE GOD.

But the point I was trying to make we both agree the Trinity was here from the beginning of time. It was not totally revealed to us until Jesus told us. And to be honest as we both agree on also, we still do not have the ability to understand it completely ourself.

But to believe and understand compltetly are 2 very different things.

But my point is the Holy Spirit has been here from the beginning to even teach us about God. If Abraham did not have the GRACE given to him by the Holy Spirit he could not even begin to teach us in the O.T. That was the point I was trying to relay. Sorry if I did not make it as clear as I probally should have.

But all Grace comes from God by the power of his Spirit no matter what. Without God and his grace nothing is possible.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But my point is the Holy Spirit has been here from the beginning to even teach us about God.

 

[Simka]

Okay then tell me how can me and my friend pray to the same Jesus then, if we have different teaching’s. Then you are saying we cannot then?

Do not the teaching of the Jesus in the bible contradict the teaching of my friend that the Apostles have been given the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sin in his name.

So do I tell my friend to come to her senses, and until see can come to realize this true teaching of Jesus in the bible her Jesus is false?

So far as I can tell, you friend’s misunderstanding concerning the doctrine of forgiveness has little or nothing to do with Biblical teaching concerning the nature and character of God. Such a comparatively minor disagreement between you may be resolved simply by reading the Scriptures together (since presumably you both recognize their authority). Unless this disagreement between you is just the small tip of a very large iceberg, it does not rise to the level of a comprehensive disagreement and irreconcilable differences concerning the fundamental nature of God … which would be a much more critical issue, and which I understand is the topic of this forum.

 

[rinnie]

But the point of the matter is this. I don’t care what false teaching you have.

If you believe in the One true God and you believe that green is yellow. That still does not take away you believe in the One True God.

Just as my friend does not believe in the fullness of the truth revealed in the Church. She prays to Jesus Christ the true Son of GOd.

You cannot acuse the Muslims as having a false god because they are msled by a false prophet.

As I said numerous times a thousand lies still cannot take away ONE TRUTH.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

St.John the Baptist did not baptize with the Holy Spirit, his baptism is by water, Jesus is the one who baptizes with fire in the Holy Spirit.

Surely yes, and I don’t think I said or suggested otherwise earlier. My point was that St. John’s express reference to the Holy Spirit by name suggests (if not proves) that the workings of the Holy Spirit were not unknown before the time of Christ. Thus at least two of the three persons of the Trinity had already been revealed.

Less directly, then, the Holy Spirit should be known to the sons of Abraham (including Islam), if they truly believe in the God of Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

So far as I can tell, you friend’s misunderstanding concerning the doctrine of forgiveness has little or nothing to do with Biblical teaching concerning the nature and character of God. Such a comparatively minor disagreement between you may be resolved simply by reading the Scriptures together (since presumably you both recognize their authority). Unless this disagreement between you is just the small tip of a very large iceberg, it does not rise to the level of a comprehensive disagreement and irreconcilable differences concerning the fundamental nature of God … which would be a much more critical issue, and which I understand is the topic of this forum.

Really! The Sacrament of Penance has very lilttle to do with Biblical Teaching? Then where did it come from?

20:23 As the Father has sent me, So I send you. And when he had said this he breathed on them and said to them. Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose SINS YOU forgive are FORGIVEN them, and whose sins you retain are reatined.

This has very LITTLE to do with biblical teaching? Are you kidding me!

 

[GaryTaylor]

And we only have ___ posts left to resolve it!

And in the end we’ll be left praying for them just as our Lord would want for the converstion of all sinners.

Peace

 

[Simka]

But the point of the matter is this. I don’t care what false teaching you have.If you believe in the One true God and you believe that green is yellow. That still does not take away you believe in the One True God.

Both of us saying that we believe in the one true God does not mean we are both telling the truth. You and I may make the same statement, and both of us may believe it to be true, but if what you mean by the term “One True God” is sufficiently different from what I mean when I use the same words, we may discover that our beliefs are actually irreconcilable.

Let me offer another analogy.

Suppose you and I each have a friend in London, whom we know as John Jones. John is a highly placed executive in an international enterprise. He is married and has a son, Robert. We may find a number of other bits of information about John that we both know, and we find it most curious that we both know the same person … or so it appears.

But then I tell you more detail about my friend – that he is an executive in the London Branch Office of an international bank; and last weekend we shared a couple of days together at his country estate in Scotland.

The John Jones you know is an executive with an international airline, and last weekend you spent a couple of days with him at his country estate outside Paris.

Of course, it is possible that you might tell me that I was misinformed about John Jones, that I only imagined my time with him in Scotland, because he was actually in Paris, and I am mistaken in my understanding that he runs a bank, when it is actually an airline. I would find that contention to be arrogant and ignorant, especially since I have so many witnesses to my truth.

In fact, the only reasonable conclusion we can reach is that, despite their commonalities, your friend and mine are not one and the same John Jones. They are both known by the same name, but name alone is not a uniquely identifying characteristic.

When Muslims go into more detail and define who or what they are referring to when they use the words “one true God” or “God of Abraham” and we discern that these qualities of their god are incompatible and irreconcilable with the God of the Bible (just like we discovered irreconcilable differences between your John Jones and my John Jones), we can only reasonably conclude that Muslims mean someone or something different from the God of the Bible. And (whereas there were two men, both named John Jones), if we agree with them that there is only One True God, then we must also conclude that – because they are irreconcilably different – either the object of Muslim worship, or the object of Christian worship, is something other than the One True God. It does not matter what words we may use to name our respective deities.

One of them is God, the other is not.

 

[Mickey]

God didn’t create the Muslims? Who did?

Huh?

 

[Mickey]

Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus

No they do not.

 

[lakeside_Luther]

Greetings~
Well, here I am in a mess again.
My husband is a Lutheran and he was deeply offended when I told him that Catholics have a different God than Lutherans have because the way I saw it, there was no way it ever could be the same one, the qualities are too disimilar. Protestants are too quick to say we make everything up.
It’s a bit strange because if our God *is the same *then either we are all going to hell or they are all going to hell. Better choose wisely. I knew I needed to find out for sure…
My husband said oh sure, go to CAF and ask the Catholics but I told him that the people on these forums are completely unbiased and have schooled me when I have been wrong and enlightened me about things when I needed to know the truth. So that’s why I posted here again
Thanks so much for reading this thread,
Jen

I was raised Catholic and now I am a LCMS Lutheran and let me tell you we are all praying to the same God.

 

[Mickey]

You make the accusation correctly that Muslims do not worship the same Christian God in the blessed Trinity. No one argues that, nor do Muslims.

Many people are arguing that! Many Catholics are arguing that! You are saying that the Muslims worship the same God as the Christians,when in fact they consciously and knowingly do not!

Can you prove the deity that Muslims worship is the not the God of Abraham?

I will let St John the Evangelist prove it to you.

Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Surely yes, and I don’t think I said or suggested otherwise earlier. My point was that St. John’s express reference to the Holy Spirit by name suggests (if not proves) that the workings of the Holy Spirit were not unknown before the time of Christ. Thus at least two of the three persons of the Trinity had already been revealed.

Less directly, then, the Holy Spirit should be known to the sons of Abraham (including Islam), if they truly believe in the God of Abraham.

The blessed Trinity is revealed long before Abraham.

Genesis 1:26 Let “US” make man in OUR image.

Yet is was Jesus who revealed all the scriptures “beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in ALL the scriptures, vs. 44…everything written about me in the Law of Moses and in the prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled. 45 and he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.
49…behold I am sending the promise of my Father upon you”…

The promise of the Father does not get sent until the revelation of God incarnate, who sends the promise of the Father upon the Church. This is the revelation of the Holy Spirit I was referencing. I was not denying the Holy Spirit or the Trinity did not exist during the Old Testament times, the Trinity exists eternally revealed in the fullness of time when God sent His Son born of a Woman.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Many people are arguing that! Many Catholics are arguing that! You are saying that the Muslims worship the same God as the Christians,when in fact they consciously and knowingly do not!
I will let St John the Evangelist prove it to you.

Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

I thought it was made clear here that Muslims deny the revelations of the Word of God Icarnate (made flesh) in Jesus Christ.

The Son was not revealed yet during Abrahams time only foreshadowed.

The Muslims are professing to have faith in Abrahams faith “revelation” of One God creator. Can you prove the One God revelation from Abrahams faith is different from the Muslims who profess this faith of Abrahams God? I am not asking about the revelations of God in Jesus Christ.

We are not on the same page here.

 

[Mickey]

I thought it was made clear here that Muslims deny the revelations of the Word of God Icarnate (made flesh) in Jesus Christ.

Yes.

The Son was not revealed yet during Abrahams time only foreshadowed.

Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:56

The Muslims are professing to have faith in Abrahams faith “revelation” of One God creator.

But since they deny Christ…they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

Can you prove the One God revelation from Abrahams faith is different from the Muslims who profess this faith of Abrahams God?

Yes.

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

I am not asking about the revelations of God in Jesus Christ.

It is the question you need to ask…because Christ is God.

We are not on the same page here.

Apparently.

 

[Simka]

But the point of the matter is this. I don’t care what false teaching you have. If you believe in the One true God and you believe that green is yellow. That still does not take away you believe in the One True God.

That’s a very big “If”, rinnie. IF you believe in the One True God … good on you.

BUT: what if you’re only SAYING that’s what you believe, when in fact the evidence points to your actually believing in someone or something quite different? In these circumstances, what would the real truth be?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But the point of the matter is this. I don’t care what false teaching you have.

If you believe in the One true God and you believe that green is yellow. That still does not take away you believe in the One True God.

That’s a very big “If”, rinnie. IF you believe in the One True God … good on you.

BUT: what if you’re only SAYING that’s what you believe, when in fact the evidence points to your actually believing in someone or something quite different? In these circumstances, what would the real truth be?

Could it be that we may be getting closer to the real “rub” in this near-classic debate?

That is to say, it seems as if the more staunchly conservative say here “they have rejected Christ as God, so thus theirs is a different God”.

And moderates here seem to be saying “yes, that may all be true, but we still hold that there understanding of God is imperfect, due to the flawed teachings and prophecy of Mohammed, yet recogize our common belief in the Creator”. (heaven forbid a good Catholic boy like me actually dares to refer to the Catholic Church’s position as “moderate”)

Whereas the more liberal folks here might say “we can all trace our roots back to Abraham, so it stands to reason that we all fundamentally believe in the God of Abraham, yet not fully revealed to all but the Christians”.

If this is where we have landed after over 900 posts, is it fair to say we are basically saying the same thing, just from different points of views and with varying degrees of tolerance?

 

[Mickey]

That is to say, it seems as if the more staunchly conservative say here “they have rejected Christ as God, so thus theirs is a different God”.

I would not call that so much the “conservative” view…as I would the “Biblical” view…because St John tells us that if you deny the Son, you hath not the Father.

And moderates here seem to be saying “yes, that may all be true, but we still hold that there understanding of God is imperfect, due to the flawed teachings and prophecy of Mohammed, yet recogize our common belief in the Creator”.

What common belief? Christ is the Creator.

so it stands to reason that we all fundamentally believe in the God of Abraham

Yet that is not correct because the God of Abraham is the Triune God. The Muslims know who Christ is…they reject Him.

is it fair to say we are basically saying the same thing

Not at all.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well, there’s actually another side to the story. There’s what the Bible states, what the Quran states, and then their is History.

Its not a mystery they “profess” that Adam was the first prophet and Mohammed the last.

The Quran use’s “We” in place of Allah in many of these verse’s

However, I have never seen any historical evidence that place’s anything back prior to the 7th century. The Five Pillars if I remember correctly came from Mohammads family and were pagan.

You can read a more in-depth view on the Catholic Encyclopedia - Mohammed and Mohammedanism.

Peace