Obama 50%, Palin 33%

[Raskolnikov]

Most US citizens couldn’t tell you who the PM of Canada is and even less what the major parties of the country are and what their political platforms are.

I teach Citz in the World merit badge to US Scouts and almost none of the High School boys I teach can accurately describe the government structure of Canada.

Obama definately over promised and is under delivering…

IMHO, Palin gets support because she is looked upon as 100% American. She will always have a certain amount of support because of that fact. You can’t put a price on that and you can’t turn a multinationalist into that. And if Merkel attacks Palin you will see a ground swell of US support for Palin and more anti-German attacks than during WWII. Merkel can only dream of having such support.

Seeming “100% American”? What, because she hunts, likes country music, and uses rural neologisms? And I’m not talking about attacks, I’m talking about dynamic statesmenship. Merkel is a very intelligent (she’s a nuclear physicist by training) and dynamic politician who has navigated her country through problems for a longer period of time than most chancellors can survive on top. She didn’t get the epithet “the iron chancellor” for nothing (sort of in reference to Thatcher as “the iron lady.” She has five times as much brain, brawn, and imo charisma as Palin, probably almost ever American politician.

And if Americans would respond the way you say they would if omeone criticized their champion (though it wouldn’t surprise me the way some people one here consider unchristian, unAmerican, and evil to so much as criticize the woman), then I have no idea why you consider that a good thing; that would frankly frighten me. I know no German would want that kind of power over their supporters, it only harkens back to an era when some horrible things were done in the name leader and country.

 

[gilliam]

Seeming “100% American”? What, because she hunts, likes country music, and uses rural neologisms? And I’m not talking about attacks, I’m talking about dynamic statesmenship. Merkel is a very intelligent (she’s a nuclear physicist by training) and dynamic politician who has navigated her country through problems for a longer period of time than most chancellors can survive on top. She didn’t get the epithet “the iron chancellor” for nothing (sort of in reference to Thatcher as “the iron lady.” She has five times as much brain, brawn, and imo charisma as Palin, probably almost ever American politician.

As I said, Americans may not want Palin for President but they identify with her. I can’t say the same for Merkel, but if you like her that’s great.

And if Americans would respond the way you say they would if omeone criticized their champion (though it wouldn’t surprise me the way some people one here consider unchristian, unAmerican, and evil to so much as criticize the woman), then I have no idea why you consider that a good thing; that would frankly frighten me. I know no German would want that kind of power over their supporters, it only harkens back to an era when some horrible things were done in the name leader and country.

Palin gains with Americans when people attack her. Sorry if it frightens you. The US Navy has a flag on all US warships. It looks like this:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrsjVRnfVHKfqdRAVzYxlpulOBgBiGOBwP1c1jnLT_xsKM2ASpr_n6HRE

It is on warships because they go all over the world.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Exactly.

We especially enjoy the irony of people in other countries arrogantly complaining about the arrogance of “stupid Americans.”

To be sure, the raltionship between Americans and Europeans can be sufficiently seems to be one of mutual contempt excect when there’s is a third party (another ‘civilization’ if you will) involved, then sudden;y we’re joined at the hip as "western civilization.’ Like two brothers that hate each other until one of them gets slighted by an outsider.

Personally, I don’t like antipathy either way, because I am an American but I love Europe, specifically Bavaria, more than any place on the planet, even my hopetown. So when I mentioned to my host mother in Germany that I had gone to a Catholic high school in the US and she asked (in German) 'oh, did they teach you science there?" It rather annoymed, though she was an excellent host and have nothing but fondess for her and ger family. On the other side, I people occasionally ask me after I got back from Germany a few months ago “how ‘bad’ was it over there?” I get a little angry and have to stife my impulse to say, ‘oh horrible, almost as bad as it is here.’ I hate it, I can’t fit in with the “stupid American country bumpkins” and I can’t speak German well enough to pass for an “evil European socialist.” Oh well, maybe I can move up north to East Alaska, or as I call it, North Ohio. I think they have another indigenous name for it up there though. What was it again? Can… Canad… Oh well, who cares.

 

[gamewell45]

why the difference? If you are going to support Obama, why not vote for him either way? I don’t get it.

Because I believe that most politicians on the State and Federal level are untrustworthy to do their jobs, that is why I’d write my name in for President. While I don’t know the first thing about running this country, I’m honest and thats more then all the candidates regardless of their party affiliation.

Obviously I have no shot in getting elected; so if It came down to who I wanted as President I have to go with the lesser of two evils; hence my decision to vote for Obama in the event that the polls showed him and Palin in a neck-to-neck race.

 

[Raskolnikov]

gilliam:

As I said, Americans may not want Palin for President but they identify with her. I can’t say the same for Merkel, but if you like her that’s great.

Some do, but not all. Many Americans, remeber, identify with barack Obama. What’s the significance of that?

I can’t say the same for Merkel, but if you like her that’s great.

I like her better than Palin. What’s wrong with that?

gilliam:

Palin gains with Americans when people attack her. Sorry if it frightens you.

That people would react so unreasonably to criticism of a *politician * (remember, getting attacked is kind of half their job) does indeed and should frighten anyone who values democracy over the feelings of their favorite politician. Why do you think she should be so untouchable?

Edit: maybe it’s just that I don’t sympathize with the whole “we’re 'merica, the best country in the world, and we can kick everyone else’s *ss” sentiment. I get embarrassed rather than excited when I hear Toby Keith’s song “Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.”

 

[Gift_from_God]

The feeling is mutual around here regarding America’s hat.

Not surprised

But don’t mess with us. We have a strong army, and here’s proof

We have a strong, charismatic, and colourful leader, and here’s proof

We have a cool national anthem, and here’s proof

And of course, talking to Americans!

 

[Gift_from_God]

There’s a country north of America?

Yes, Soviet Canuckistan

 

[rlg94086]

To be sure, the raltionship between Americans and Europeans can be sufficiently seems to be one of mutual contempt excect when there’s is a third party (another ‘civilization’ if you will) involved, then sudden;y we’re joined at the hip as "western civilization.’ Like two brothers that hate each other until one of them gets slighted by an outsider.

Personally, I don’t like antipathy either way, because I am an American but I love Europe, specifically Bavaria, more than any place on the planet, even my hopetown. So when I mentioned to my host mother in Germany that I had gone to a Catholic high school in the US and she asked (in German) 'oh, did they teach you science there?" It rather annoymed, though she was an excellent host and have nothing but fondess for her and ger family. On the other side, I people occasionally ask me after I got back from Germany a few months ago “how ‘bad’ was it over there?” I get a little angry and have to stife my impulse to say, ‘oh horrible, almost as bad as it is here.’ I hate it, I can’t fit in with the “stupid American country bumpkins” and I can’t speak German well enough to pass for an “evil European socialist.” Oh well, maybe I can move up north to East Alaska, or as I call it, North Ohio. I think they have another indigenous name for it up there though. What was it again? Can… Canad… Oh well, who cares.

I’m fairly well traveled. While I love my country, it is not as bad in some places as people assume. That said, it isn’t particularly superior either…just different. Different does not equal bad.

Places I’ve been to that I could live: Holland (not Amsterdam, but I like the smaller towns), Austria, Germany (Southern especially, but I could tolerate the Dusseldorf area), Kyoto, UK (South or West coast, especially, but I liked the carrot-cruncher areas too - lived in Thame), I could probably tolerate Victoria, Vancouver or Montreal (except for the whole French thing )

Places I would avoid living: Shanghai (lots of restaurant choices but expensive and not great outside of the main city), Hong Kong (same), Taipei, Edmonton, Toronto, Sao Paolo.

Um…and do you think that the spread between Palin and Obama might tighten? (attempt to stay on topic )

 

[rlg94086]

Because I believe that most politicians on the State and Federal level are untrustworthy, that is why I’d write my name in for President. While I don’t know the first thing about running this country, I’m honest and thats more then all the candidates regardless of their party affiliation.

Obviously I have no shot in getting elected; so if It came down to who I wanted as President I have to go with the lesser of two evils; hence my decision to vote for Obama in the event that the polls showed him and Palin in a neck-to-neck race.

Well, it still makes no sense.

Besides, you are in New York. I understand someone like myself who would do a ridiculous write-in, after seeing the exit poll results across the country, but you are in the eastern most time zone. Vote your conscience…for the best choice. I disagree that it is Obama, but don’t be flakey. If that is your preference, then do it. If you prefer none-of-the-above, then vote for yourself.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Wow, just wow.

Well, it’s true.

 

[gilliam]

Many Americans, remeber, identify with barack Obama. What’s the significance of that?

It’s keeping his approval rating around 40% right now.

That people would react so unreasonably to criticism of a *politician *(remember, getting attacked is kind of half their job) does indeed and should frighten anyone who values democracy over the feelings of their favorite politician. Why do you think she should be so untouchable?

We have boundries in this country of what was appropriate and what was out of bounds. Attacking her kids, which has happened, for instance is out of bounds.

Edit: maybe it’s just that I don’t sympathize with the whole “we’re 'merica, the best country in the world, and we can kick everyone else’s *ss” sentiment. I get embarrassed rather than excited when I hear Toby Keith’s song “Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.”

Then ignore America, as Americans ignore countries they don’t understand or care that much about.

 

[estesbob]

Exactly.

We especially enjoy the irony of people in other countries arrogantly complaining about the arrogance of “stupid Americans.”

 

[Persuader]

Indeed. I suspect there will be rioting in the streets of Europe, if Palin, Bachmann, etc. are elected. You are very good at that.

I wonder if Europeans and Canadians realize that every time they criticize Americans, we chuckle and it actually strengthens our resolve?

England is one country, and that situation, while certainly tragic and embarrassing, has nothing to do with this matter.

I am sure it does strengthen your resolve, but you might wonder why that is. It is because of group-think. You, the religious right, have defined yourself as a group. That is your in-group. Furthermore, you have defined liberals, the scientific community etc. as out-groups, which you are automatically hostile and skeptical towards (do not accept evolution, climate change, progressive ideas etc).

Although this is undoubtedly true about liberals as well (they are also victims to group-think), it seems to me like they are more aware of it (probably because they are more willing to accept science in general and psychology especially). It is very important to be aware of these psychological mechanisms that pit people and groups against each other. It will help you navigate the issues when your emotional responses tell you not to like that person or his message because he comes from a group you don’t like.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I’m fairly well traveled. While I love my country, it is not as bad in some places as people assume. That said, it isn’t particularly superior either…just different. Different does not equal bad.

Places I’ve been to that I could live: Holland (not Amsterdam, but I like the smaller towns), Austria, Germany (Southern especially, but I could tolerate the Dusseldorf area), Kyoto, UK (South or West coast, especially, but I liked the carrot-cruncher areas too - lived in Thame), I could probably tolerate Victoria, Vancouver or Montreal (except for the whole French thing )

Places I would avoid living: Shanghai (lots of restaurant choices but expensive and not great outside of the main city), Hong Kong (same), Taipei, Edmonton, Toronto, Sao Paolo.

Um…and do you think that the spread between Palin and Obama might tighten? (attempt to stay on topic )

I’m only mildly well travelled; I’ve only been3 other countries… well, technically 4 but… (should I make this my, what, 4th concecutive post with an anti-Canadian remark in it? Sometimes I can’t help myself). But I would enjoy living in Austria or Germany, especially in Munich or the Bavarian countryside. That’s my fantasy is to buy a house in some little Bavarian village, or a townhouse in Munich.

I certainly can’t about having been born in the states of course. Considering I could just as easily have been born in Tibet or Nigeria, or Brazil and life would be much harder. Then again, I’ve seen some neighborhoods in Detroit that might be worse than some neighborhoods in Baghdad. I’m also lucky not to have been born there.

Boy, I’ve been making fun of Canadians, and now Detroiters too, and what’s more, of Californians on the earthquake thread. I’m probably making some enemies here.

 

[gamewell45]

Well, it still makes no sense.

Besides, you are in New York. I understand someone like myself who would do a ridiculous write-in, after seeing the exit poll results across the country, but you are in the eastern most time zone. Vote your conscience…for the best choice. I disagree that it is Obama, but don’t be flakey. If that is your preference, then do it. If you prefer none-of-the-above, then vote for yourself.

We all have our little quirks in life I suppose. I’m not affiliated with any political party, so its easier for me to support whom I believe can do the best job without having to observe any party loyalties.

For me it works; of course for many i understand that it wouldn’t work and again I have to respect their decision whether or not I agree with their philosophy.

 

[Raskolnikov]

gilliam:

We have boundries in this country of what was appropriate and what was out of bounds. Attacking her kids, which has happened, for instance is out of bounds.

And Obama’s kids were spared? No, they weren’t. We do not have boundaries in this country, and that’s one of the things we are renowned for in Europe. In Germany, it’s not nearly as difficult to sue someone for slander, which exemplifies why many Germans are appalled by the fact that Americans are apparently willing to say anything to anyone.

Boundaries in American politics? Sad as it may be, I don’t think that’s true any more.

Then ignore America, as Americans ignore countries they don’t understand or care that much about.

I don’t not understand Toby Keith’s song. I understand it entirely, and I still object to it. And ignoring people you don’t understand isn’t exactly something to be proud of.

 

[rlg94086]

England is one country, and that situation, while certainly tragic and embarrassing, has nothing to do with this matter.

I am sure it does strengthen your resolve, but you might wonder why that is. It is because of group-think. You, the religious right, have defined yourself as a group. That is your in-group. Furthermore, you have defined liberals, the scientific community etc. as out-groups, which you are automatically hostile and skeptical towards (do not accept evolution, climate change, progressive ideas etc).

Although this is undoubtedly true about liberals as well (they are also victims to group-think), it seems to me like they are more aware of it (probably because they are more willing to accept science in general and psychology especially). It is very important to be aware of these psychological mechanisms that pit people and groups against each other. It will help you navigate the issues when your emotional responses tell you not to like that person or his message because he comes from a group you don’t like.

You don’t even know me, and you are accusing me of “group-think.” Your condescending attitude is, quite frankly, hilarious.

What country do you live in?

 

[gilliam]

And Obama’s kids were spared? No, they weren’t. We do not have boundaries in this country, and that’s one of the things we are renowned for in Europe. In Germany, it’s not nearly as difficult to sue someone for slander, which exemplifies why many Germans are appalled by the fact that Americans are apparently willing to say anything to anyone.

Boundaries in American politics? Sad as it may be, I don’t think that’s true any more.
.

No it wasn’t right and it is not to be tolerated. I am not that quick to move boundary lines. Politicians’ kids are out of bounds. I don’t think Palin should be president but what happened with the attacks on Palin’s kids was uncalled for and dishonorable. It had no place in US politics. The fact that yellow journalism can now be found on cable TV is no excuse to approve of the practice.

 

[estesbob]

You don’t even know me, and you are accusing me of “group-think.” Your condescending attitude is, quite frankly, hilarious.

What country do you live in?

It was indeed one of the stranger posts i have run across in CAF lately.

 

[Persuader]

You don’t even know me, and you are accusing me of “group-think.” Your condescending attitude is, quite frankly, hilarious.

You say that criticism only increases your resolve. That seems like a picture book example of ingroup/loyalty. If you disagree, why do you think criticism strengthens your resolve? I have spent some time discussing with religious right wingers from the States, and they seem to be isolated from the larger conversations in the intellectual communities in the Western world. This is a tragedy, and it gives me no pleasure to see it.