Obama- urges court, Gay Marriage ban

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Nope. But again the US is not under Catholic teaching. There is a difference between civil law and Catholic Church law. There are Christians in other traditions who have different interpretations. That’s why. And no they really believe what they believe. Just as you believe what you believe.
We know what I believe you’ve yet to support your claim of “THEY” who are they? And the they you claim exists as a cohesive unit, doesn’t follow Apostolic Teaching-7-Councils. So really what DO they believe, and who are “they”…really?

No one said the US is under Catholic teaching, show me the post I made that comment or we will both have to admit your are wrong again and injecting false information into the thread. Right?

“Nope” is a “no response”: supported by no fact, mine is. I know the difference, and we been through how civil law became civil law.

What other Christians? WHAT TRADITION? Source please. And what do they really believe? NOT the Tradition of the most Holy Apostolic Church’s present throughout the world, the Lights of the World established by Jesus Christ which will remain forever present, and mentioned {Revelation} Biblically? The seven ecumenical councils? May they be so forever Blessed.

Fact is you have no answers “yet” anyway. What you have is you own interpretation of scripture., un-supported by any Tradition, thus an opinion and nothing to support it. There is “NO” Christian Tradition which teaches SS. Its un-factual, unhistorical and a foundation built on Sand. Christs Word has never changed, people change it to THEIR WORD.
 
There is “NO” Christian Tradition which teaches SS. Its un-factual, unhistorical and a foundation built on Sand. Christs Word has never changed, people change it to THEIR WORD.
There is no tradition that YOU accept as valid that accepts gay people. There are traditions that other Americans accept as valid that perform gay marriages, and even have gay people as leaders. You don’t have to join those traditions or believe that their interpretation is valid…but they also don’t have to join yours and believe that your interpretation is valid. That is what religious freedom means. We ALL get to worship as we choose and live by the religious traditions we choose. The state does not get to tell us what religious traditions we will live by.
 
Seeker1961 already explained to you how the US is made up of many different people of different faiths and beliefs and how this must be taken into consideration as we go about the formation of secular *civil *law. There are as well others of no belief in God. It’s not without good reason that the US is known as a melting pot of people.

Yes I’ve read it. I’ve also read how Christians of a more liberal persuasion who support SS marriage, SS union blessings, or civil unions have come over the course of time and history to understand and interpret Scripture in regard to homosexuality differently than you and others do. BTW they believe in God and while you may believe they act under a false premise of God, they would not agree with your assessment of them nor of their beliefs. I thought Catholics were to be respectful of other faiths on this forum. Anyway I once posted an explanation of their faith beliefs and understanding of Scripture as it relates to homosexuality on the non Catholic subforum. So I won’t bother to do so here lest I be accused of trying to lead Catholics astray.

And again as Seeker said, you’re not going to change your opinion. Yet regardless of how the SS marriage issue eventually plays out in civil law, neither will you be forced to marry a gay person.
But the problem is I do not want to pay to support SS marriage, nor have my children indoctrinated with the idea that same sex marriage is the same as one man and one woman marriage.
 
There is no tradition that YOU accept as valid that accepts gay people. There are traditions that other Americans accept as valid that perform gay marriages, and even have gay people as leaders. You don’t have to join those traditions or believe that their interpretation is valid…but they also don’t have to join yours and believe that your interpretation is valid. That is what religious freedom means. We ALL get to worship as we choose and live by the religious traditions we choose. The state does not get to tell us what religious traditions we will live by.
Church and State is not my concern, its all those Christians which make up church and state. We call ourselves in America a predominate Christian country. Which we are. That’s the larger picture I’m viewing in relation to Christianity.

And what I’m saying is this is not the worship of our Founding Fathers, their laws or the existing Christian Traditions of that day and we can trace every single movement forward.

Slavery is a perfect example mentioned. Just as this was not the way of the Catholic Church when America was founded. It became the way of those who followed the Word of God in the US though, then interpreted it on their own. Isn’t this the same as being done with these Christian traditions you mention?

I concede that Christianity has morphed just as it has with four point conversion, Jesus Loves You, Your a sinner, The Cross forgives sin, Say the sinners prayer. and that’s a Blessing.

I disagree that SS should be commended as Christian, and when we add Abortion to the equation as I mentioned with Obama, I fail to see how that’s Christian or relates to history and Scripture. But I’m repeating myself.
 
Church and State is not my concern, its all those Christians which make up church and state. We call ourselves in America a predominate Christian country. Which we are. That’s the larger picture I’m viewing in relation to Christianity.

And what I’m saying is this is not the worship of our Founding Fathers, their laws or the existing Christian Traditions of that day and we can trace every single movement forward.

Slavery is a perfect example mentioned. Just as this was not the way of the Catholic Church when America was founded. It became the way of those who followed the Word of God in the US though, then interpreted it on their own. Isn’t this the same as being done with these Christian traditions you mention?

I concede that Christianity has morphed just as it has with four point conversion, Jesus Loves You, Your a sinner, The Cross forgives sin, Say the sinners prayer. and that’s a Blessing.

I disagree that SS should be commended as Christian, and when we add Abortion to the equation as I mentioned with Obama, I fail to see how that’s Christian or relates to history and Scripture. But I’m repeating myself.
Whoever the President is, he or she is President of ALL American citizens, not just the Christian ones. No matter what his or her personal religious beliefs are, he or she MUST consider the needs of those citizens who do not share those personal religious beliefs.

We can talk about the Founding Fathers and argue about what their personal religious beliefs were all day long but in the end IT DOESN’T MATTER. It doesn’t matter that in the 1700’s there were likely either very few or no Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Agnostics, or Atheists in America. It doesn’t matter that the majority was Christian or that the majority still is Christian. What does matter is that the state cannot in any way endorse one religious tradition over another.

You and I may not agree with other religious interpretations of Scripture. Personally I don’t know how anyone reads the Gospel of John and doesn’t accept the Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist…but they do. And the state can’t pass a law saying that everyone has to believe in the Real Presence, just because I believe in it. If I were President, I wouldn’t be able to pass such a law either.
 
There is no tradition that YOU accept as valid that accepts gay people. There are traditions that other Americans accept as valid that perform gay marriages, and even have gay people as leaders. You don’t have to join those traditions or believe that their interpretation is valid…but they also don’t have to join yours and believe that your interpretation is valid. That is what religious freedom means. We ALL get to worship as we choose and live by the religious traditions we choose. The state does not get to tell us what religious traditions we will live by.
Moral relativism is not required of us or anybody else, even in a secular society. As Catholics, we are obliged to act morally even in the political sphere. You are essentially saying above that we, alone, are precluded from asserting moral or philosophical points of view in the public arena; that those with opposing points of view are entitled to prevail simply because they have opposing points of view.
 
Whoever the President is, he or she is President of ALL American citizens, not just the Christian ones…
Right and for the sake of time I didn’t bring all those who are not Christian into the conversation and their moral integrity is not in question. We have to concede we are a predominately Christian country through. So it stands to follow the President is speaking to predominately Christians.

So too since abortion has been on-going, and SS seems to be gaining favor. Then we have to admit that our predominate Christian country has morphed into a Christianity other than what came to America. And what I’m saying is our President is further pushing a predominately Christian country in that direction by promoting a cause.
If I were President, I wouldn’t be able to pass such a law either.
But you would have the ability as mentioned above to promote a cause.
 
Moral relativism is not required of us or anybody else, even in a secular society. As Catholics, we are obliged to act morally even in the political sphere. You are essentially saying above that we, alone, are precluded from asserting moral or philosophical points of view in the public arena; that those with opposing points of view are entitled to prevail simply because they have opposing points of view.
Let me clarify my point, then. What I’m saying is that our political opinions have no MORE value than the political opinions of those who are not Catholic, even if there are fewer of them. The atheist down the block has the exact same rights I do, and if I want him to respect and fight for my rights, I’m going to respect and fight for his.

I also believe that you can tell a lot about a majority by the way it treats a minority. You don’t convert anyone by force or rule of law. You convert people by appealing to their hearts and their intellect.
 
The atheist down the block has the exact same rights I do, and if I want him to respect and fight for my rights, I’m going to respect and fight for his.
Well, you should; however, don’t expect them to return the favor…I think a lot people become atheist as an excuse to justify selfish behaviors.

I just wonder if people even understand what constitutional rights are. So-called “gay marriage” or any kind of marriage for that matter, is not one of them.
I also believe that you can tell a lot about a majority by the way it treats a minority.
Indeed. Since the gay rights movement bleats it now has a near-majority, I wonder how people like me will be treated who think that so-called “gay marriage” won’t live up to the utopian standards, and neither will polygamous marriages in Islam simply because it’s “their culture” ----or that Western couples who live together to “try things out” are deluding themselves.

Given the rank intolerance and violent tendencies of those social institutions and political philosophies that advocate the hardest for a PR image of “peace, diversity and tolerance”, I’m guessing my freedom will be imperiled in the coming years.

And the so the cycle of "great benevolence’ repeats itself once again right under the nose of the an emotional, irrational public. :rolleyes:
You don’t convert anyone by force or rule of law.
That’s a left-wing tactic, and it has no place in Christianity. Commentator Jason Lewis refers to such activists as “law and order” liberals.
 
And again as Seeker said, you’re not going to change your opinion. Yet regardless of how the SS marriage issue eventually plays out in civil law, neither will you be forced to marry a gay person.
Do you call this voluntary or freedom?

nationalreview.com/articles/302764/new-mexico-assaults-religious-liberty-ian-tuttle

bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=38581

hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/5901/Gay-Lawsuits-Target-Bed-and-Breakfasts-Churches-Nationwide.aspx
 
Moral relativism is not required of us or anybody else, even in a secular society. As Catholics, we are obliged to act morally even in the political sphere. You are essentially saying above that we, alone, are precluded from asserting moral or philosophical points of view in the public arena; that those with opposing points of view are entitled to prevail simply because they have opposing points of view.
He’s wrong. As someone once said, freedom of religion is more than just freedom of worship.

I wonder how many gay rights advocates would be this aggressive on a Muslim forum. 🤷

I’d love to know the answer to that. 😃
 
Whoever the President is, he or she is President of ALL American citizens, not just the Christian ones. No matter what his or her personal religious beliefs are, he or she MUST consider the needs of those citizens who do not share those personal religious beliefs.

We can talk about the Founding Fathers and argue about what their personal religious beliefs were all day long but in the end IT DOESN’T MATTER. It doesn’t matter that in the 1700’s there were likely either very few or no Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Agnostics, or Atheists in America. It doesn’t matter that the majority was Christian or that the majority still is Christian. What does matter is that the state cannot in any way endorse one religious tradition over another.

You and I may not agree with other religious interpretations of Scripture. Personally I don’t know how anyone reads the Gospel of John and doesn’t accept the Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist…but they do. And the state can’t pass a law saying that everyone has to believe in the Real Presence, just because I believe in it. If I were President, I wouldn’t be able to pass such a law either.
You honestly think God is going to accept the excuse of having to have “broad appeal as President” for why a certain person approved of or endorsed evil actions?

Please. If that excuse flies, then we can literally get away with anything and Hell is probably empty, because we can all just con our way past the Almighty.
 
You honestly think God is going to accept the excuse of having to have “broad appeal as President” for why a certain person approved of or endorsed evil actions?

Please. If that excuse flies, then we can literally get away with anything and Hell is probably empty, because we can all just con our way past the Almighty.
The only reason I think Obama even got involved in the issue was because GLTBQ donors were withholding campaign donations.

I don’t expect liberal readers to necessarily understand that because they really do think in big numbers that someone with a D behind their name “cares”. :rolleyes:

Now that he’s in the second term, he really has nothing else to lose, but there were a massive revolt within the democrat base from blue-collar union workers in rust belt or if polls showed African-Americans trending GOP over the issue, I think he would have dropped it.

There’s people out there who seem that every single person who votes democrat does so for others or for so-called “gay marriage”

The arrogance of such thinking is stifling, and I’d love to see a democrat try and win on social issues while ignoring economic ones.
 
Let me clarify my point, then. What I’m saying is that our political opinions have no MORE value than the political opinions of those who are not Catholic, even if there are fewer of them. The atheist down the block has the exact same rights I do, and if I want him to respect and fight for my rights, I’m going to respect and fight for his.

I also believe that you can tell a lot about a majority by the way it treats a minority. You don’t convert anyone by force or rule of law. You convert people by appealing to their hearts and their intellect.
Except, of course, that the law is designed to “convert” actions, not beliefs, and it does so in a thousand ways. Interestingly, for many in any society, the citizenry often identifies legality with morality. This tends to “shape” the moral sense of a society. To the extent that the libertarianism of both liberals and “libertarians” in this society affects the laws, it also shapes the moral sense.

Why, for instance, do people in this society consider their homes sacrosanct from many forms of government intrustion, and consider it “immoral” for them to be considered otherwise? It’s precisely because Anglo-Saxon law has long declared it so. At the same time, it is precisely because the Church so long promoted the idea of the sanctity of the family and its relative inviolability that Anglo-Saxon law developed in the way it did.

There is a tendency in any society to “spend its patrimony”. We in the west find ourselves so blessed by rights and privileges that we think we can “spend” them profigately without adverse consequences. And so, institutions and rules that formed much of the underpinning of the complex of rights and privileges we enjoy seem to be “suplus”, rather like the million dollar bank account of the feckless heir. Because the latter’s bank account seems to be “surplus”, the thoughtless are always tempted to “spend” it. It works until, of course, it’s gone.

Similarly, we all tout the benefits of marriage and family; the stable home life that nurtures children. Very few actually say those things are worthless. And yet, because we can point to its benefits and successes, we think we have a “surplus” of benefits and can squander it by demeaning it by extending the concept to personal relationships that have a sexual component, as if that’s really the core meaning and benefit of marriage.

We have done a great deal of that already with “no fault divorce”, with widespread affirmation of heterosexual relationships outside marriage. We minimize the meaning and then are surprised that marriage goes on the decline in favor of chaotic relationships that do not serve the beneficial purposes we nevertheless ascribe to stable marriage.

Catholic moral teachings have been very significantly undermined in recent decades, among Catholics as among others. In approaching issues like homosexual “marriage”, we have to ask ourselves whether moral relativism really serves society well or whether it is destructive to the well being of others. In further downgrading marriage to mean “a personal relationship with a sexual component”, and nothing more, we need to ask ourselves whether we are serving what we all consider the societal good of stable, child-rearing marriages, or whether we are being destructive of it for the sake of the mental satisfaction of a tiny minority that has no factual claim to the institution itself or to the contribution we all acknowledge that institution makes to society.

But regardless of whether we think it somehow serves society to call homosexual unions “marriage”, we still have our own moral imperatives which have a prior claim on our consciences and on our actions. And in no way are we, as Catholics, obliged to support something we know full well to be a moral evil, simply because others do.
 
Moral relativism is not required of us or anybody else, even in a secular society. As Catholics, we are obliged to act morally even in the political sphere. You are essentially saying above that we, alone, are precluded from asserting moral or philosophical points of view in the public arena; that those with opposing points of view are entitled to prevail simply because they have opposing points of view.
Textbook relativism as you point out.
 
Well, you should; however, don’t expect them to return the favor…I think a lot people become atheist as an excuse to justify selfish behaviors.

I just wonder if people even understand what constitutional rights are. So-called “gay marriage” or any kind of marriage for that matter, is not one of them.

Indeed. Since the gay rights movement bleats it now has a near-majority, I wonder how people like me will be treated who think that so-called “gay marriage” won’t live up to the utopian standards, and neither will polygamous marriages in Islam simply because it’s “their culture” ----or that Western couples who live together to “try things out” are deluding themselves.

Given the rank intolerance and violent tendencies of those social institutions and political philosophies that advocate the hardest for a PR image of “peace, diversity and tolerance”, I’m guessing my freedom will be imperiled in the coming years.

And the so the cycle of "great benevolence’ repeats itself once again right under the nose of the an emotional, irrational public. :rolleyes:

That’s a left-wing tactic, and it has no place in Christianity. Commentator Jason Lewis refers to such activists as “law and order” liberals.
I try to view people in a positive light until such time that they do something that would convince me otherwise. I have friends and co-workers who are atheists and they would no more deny me my right to express my faith than I would deny them their right not to believe what I do. Maybe you’ve just met the wrong atheists! 😉

So, what is actually happening in states like NY where gay marriage is legal? Cardinal Dolan seems to be doing ok up there. He’s still teaching the Catholic faith loud and proud.
 
But the problem is I do not want to pay to support SS marriage, nor have my children indoctrinated with the idea that same sex marriage is the same as one man and one woman marriage.
What would you say to the majority of the population, which is unmarried, who does not want to pay for heterosexual marriage?
 
What would you say to the majority of the population, which is unmarried, who does not want to pay for heterosexual marriage?
yeah! I’ve been paying more taxes than married people for years!! I’ve been paying for other people’s kids to go to public school!! 😉

I’m kidding, really. I have no issue paying more while straight couples pay less, and I have no issue paying for other people’s kids to be educated. It’s the way society works and I have no real issue with it.
 
yeah! I’ve been paying more taxes than married people for years!! I’ve been paying for other people’s kids to go to public school!! 😉

I’m kidding, really. I have no issue paying more while straight couples pay less, and I have no issue paying for other people’s kids to be educated. It’s the way society works and I have no real issue with it.
For heterosexual marriage, there is a return on investment: Children who will grow up to become those who support us in our old age, who will pay the taxes that will support our nation into the future, who will become the doctors and nurses that will keep our frail bodies as healthy as possible for one more day.

Same-sex “marriage” gives no possibility of such a return. All homosexual couples are, by the very nature of their biology, 100% sterile.

I know: “What about sterile heterosexual couples?” There is no criteria other than the actual absence of gonads from whence sterility can be diagnosed with certainty. I know two couples who were both told by several doctors that they were definitely sterile and unable to have children. I’m godfather to the son of one of the couples, and the others are now expecting their second child.

For those few who actually are sterile due to disease or injury, that is a medical condition that is not apparent to a casual viewer. In the United States, such medical information is rightly considered to be confidential and can only be released in the most extraordinary circumstances. One’s sex is not a medical condition. It is not privileged information. It is a part of one’s public identity.
 
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