J
James_S_Saint
Guest
Oh, the Devil is always “around”. :hammering:Oh, they haven’t been beat yet-they’re still hanging around.
npatrol:
- Status
npatrol:
K
KindredSoul
Guest
There is no reason to believe, that I know of, that the voice of the angel telling her to take such drastic risks was nothing more than a mere whisper in a crowd. In fact, I have always believed that the message and source were quite clear, and ergo though the Blessed Virgin may have had good reason to fear, there was also no doubt in her mind that she in fact doing the will of God.
Likewise the Church would probably only take drastic and sharp measures as implied about Her structure–which I am confident, even so would never be so radical as to contradict Catholicism (God cannot contradict Himself)–if She was as absolutely sure as Mary was that it was the plainly and Divinely Revealed course of action. Otherwise, no one could fault Her for being careful, no more than anyone could have faulted Mary herself for being careful if the messenger had not been one of the very angels from Heaven. When God absolutely demands such a radical and fast change, He seems, from what I can gather, not to be sparing with the flashiness and certitude of the message…prophets whose predictions play out with accuracy, angels appearing to Virgins, Messiahs rising from the dead, things like that.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
F
fhansen
Guest
Or: no matter how beautiful, how wealthy, how powerful, how misunderstood, how bungling, how human at times, the stranger nevertheless chose* her* and will see to it-has continuously seen to it -that she remain faithful in spite of her struggles and temptations and even failures-as he promises the rest of us. He desires no other-He is faithful and true.Yes.
Wasn’t this, in concept, also true of Mary before Jesus was born?
I got it, thank you very much
Perhaps if you raise the eye of your conscious mind higher, above Mankind, and view from a higher perspective…
There is a mechanism that causes a Woman to become a Mother of a Son.
One day She hears the voice of a mysterious stranger as merely a whisper in a crowd of loud voices. She isn’t even conscious that She has heard it. Yet that very stranger carries the Seed of Her Son to be as an Angel with a Message unheard.
Her defenses against so many struggles keep Her safe yet even against Her Husband to be. Yet one day, She must forsake Her own trusted defenses and allow someone not of Her to come into Her and provide an impetus for a change strange to Her own ways that She must protect and nurture, even unknown to Her and unseen.
Yet having borne two Sons already who have grown angry and spoiled with their own disjointed Families, does She even hold hope for that truly loving Son? Does She long for that stranger who can see into Her very soul and know Her even better than She knows Herself, to slay that dragon guarding Her tower?
Or must it be so much more magnificent as to be met so subtle, She never even saw that Angel at all and know not even how Her new Son came to be?
But if such is not so done, no matter how beautiful, no matter how wealthy, no matter how great or powerful, due to the lack of true humility to what must be, though beyond Her sight, another will bear that loving Son fore Mankind truly cannot go on without Him.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
What ego is not insistent that it has every certainty that it is true and pure?
How many religions have such certainty and that none could teach them other than to add to what they already know?
A husband does NOT seek that a wife be other than she is. He merely seeks that she allow for what must be from them both.
Humility is not bowing to another. It is bowing to Reality/Truth/God. But who bows to God and holds also pride in their own righteousness?
How many religions have such certainty and that none could teach them other than to add to what they already know?
A husband does NOT seek that a wife be other than she is. He merely seeks that she allow for what must be from them both.
Humility is not bowing to another. It is bowing to Reality/Truth/God. But who bows to God and holds also pride in their own righteousness?
P
PJM
Guest
Okay Catholics, time to play “Hard Ball!”
From Strong’s Commentary: “hate / Hebrew” “7852 [satam saw-tam’ a primitive root; properly, to lurk for, i.e. persecute:–hate, oppose self against]
“Hate” Greek: “2190. echthros ech-thros’ from a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile); usually as a noun, an adversary (especially Satan):–enemy, foe
As you already know, Hebrew and Aramaic, like our current day English are imperfect expressions of what one hopes to convey. For Example: “I hate your position on this issue,” means that I’m in disagreement with you on the issue at hand.
**Note in the above translations in both Hebrew and Greek the underlined portion of the definition. What Christ is saying holds true to the present time and into future generations? [Luke 16: 13] “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." [See Mt. 16:25, Mk. 8:35, and Lk. 9:24], So what is required for those called to priestly service [Jn. 15:16] “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.” Is a complete turning away from ones present life, and making a total commitment for Christ. [Mt. 16: 24 [/COLOR]“Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life?”
Does you’re understanding coincide with this? If not friend, you don’t have the correct and Biblical understanding you need to have.
Love and prayers friend,
Pat**
So friend why ask?
Abba Father, may I?
From Strong’s Commentary: “hate / Hebrew” “7852 [satam saw-tam’ a primitive root; properly, to lurk for, i.e. persecute:–hate, oppose self against]
“Hate” Greek: “2190. echthros ech-thros’ from a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile); usually as a noun, an adversary (especially Satan):–enemy, foe
As you already know, Hebrew and Aramaic, like our current day English are imperfect expressions of what one hopes to convey. For Example: “I hate your position on this issue,” means that I’m in disagreement with you on the issue at hand.
**Note in the above translations in both Hebrew and Greek the underlined portion of the definition. What Christ is saying holds true to the present time and into future generations? [Luke 16: 13] “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." [See Mt. 16:25, Mk. 8:35, and Lk. 9:24], So what is required for those called to priestly service [Jn. 15:16] “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.” Is a complete turning away from ones present life, and making a total commitment for Christ. [Mt. 16: 24 [/COLOR]“Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life?”
Does you’re understanding coincide with this? If not friend, you don’t have the correct and Biblical understanding you need to have.
[Rom. 13: 8] “ Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” Of great significance is the fact that no one part of the Bible can be in opposition to another part. Therefore in light of this verse and many other similar verses your understanding has to be [and clearly is] WRONG!
In the way Christ meant it, obviously yes! How else could one give up so much, for [seemingly w/o the eyes of faith, hope and love] and dedicate their very life’s for such seemingly meager profit?
By ending up [your choice] in either heaven or hell! And yes, to varying degrees it is a requirement of all Christians!
I’m one! Go to any Catholic Church and shake hands with the first person you meet, and then you’ll know at least two!
Love and prayers friend,
Pat**
F
fhansen
Guest
This could be said of any of us. But believing it to be so in no wise necessitates that it can’t be true or else we must concede that the truth can’t be known.
I think if you look close you may find much more humility than you’ve perceived. Maybe the devils chief weapon: truth mixed with untruth allied with plain ol’ human self-righteousness have been aimed at her and succeeded at casting more doubt and suspicion than she deserved. And maybe you expect more perfection than can be reasonably demanded of her at this time-let alone you or me. But I’ll let her speak for herself:How many religions have such certainty and that none could teach them other than to add to what they already know?
A husband does NOT seek that a wife be other than she is. He merely seeks that she allow for what must be from them both.
Humility is not bowing to another. It is bowing to Reality/Truth/God. But who bows to God and holds also pride in their own righteousness?
**769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182
821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:
- a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
- conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
- prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
- fraternal knowledge of each other;283
- ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
- dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
-* collaboration* among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.
827 "Christ, ‘holy, innocent, and undefiled,’ knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. The Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."299 All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners.300 In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time.301 Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ’s salvation but still on the way to holiness:
The Church is therefore holy, though having sinners in her midst, because she herself has no other life but the life of grace. If they live her life, her members are sanctified; if they move away from her life, they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for those offenses, of which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.302
1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15
1428 Christ’s call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, [is] at once holy and always in need of purification, [and] follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."18 This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a “contrite heart,” drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.19
1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:
The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631
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J
James_S_Saint
Guest
Oh it certainly does, I assure you (with the possible exception to replace the very last word, “life”, with “soul”.So friend why ask?
Does you’re understanding coincide with this? If not friend, you don’t have the correct and Biblical understanding you need to have.
Perhaps you are (understandably) suffering from not reading through the thread.
But I ask then, when a man sees that he prefers to be rid of an addiction that has captured his will and even bows humbly to a priest in earnest, why is it that he finds the addiction has merely subsided and waits patiently to grip him once again?
If a man merely “loves less” his addiction than another, does he overcome the addiction? Granted that if he truly and throughout more loves the other, his addiction has no grip and thus isn’t truly a strong addiction. But how many feel such a love, yet still fall?
As pointed out properly by KinderSoul earlier, if the man does not deeply and seriously detest and even loathe the very essence of the addiction as well as love the other, he cannot break that so deeply rooted grip.
And thus, it is right and true, that at times of most deep capture, a heart must seek hostility against its captor, not because hatred is the way to proceed in life, but is merely necessary to truly reach deep enough to remove the very root of its entanglement.
Jesus did not misspeak on that day, nor was he ignorant of the true need. He spoke as God, the true need, required and spoke of truth, “If any one of you does not hate…, he cannot be my disciple”, fore anything less or more kindly, would not break their bondage and free them to become the purity he had in store for them.
Such is very insufficient for life and the living. That which chooses to remain invisible and unknown to the living, chooses to become the bane and hated enemy of all of life and will one day be no more, fore life shall not be abated.By ending up [your choice] in either heaven or hell! And yes, to varying degrees it is a requirement of all Christians!
Thus the issue is still not totally resolved, but we are past the “why did Jesus say [and mean] ‘hate’” part of this puzzle.
Glad to have you join us though.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
And you contend that it can be? Perhaps it is a matter of which truths of the many that make up the total “Truth”?
This is certainly a pleasant hope.
I demand nothing.
**769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182
**
I like this guy.
But I have to ask, how indeed would she know Christ? Or is this one of those, “Oh we are so very certain of our wisdom, that such a thing could never go unseen by us”?
of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unityfhansen;5664939 said:
Know that if any Woman ever truly reaches unity, She shall never bare a child.
Whether She wanted them or not, the Church has borne 2 already. Was that due to Her unity? Would they exist if She had been totally purely united? The trick is in knowing how to chose the right Husband.
Over purify and you become sterile. But such is not of my concern. My concern is more of exactly which elements She has chosen to be so unchangeable and sterile.
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
Hi all!
To be clear here – and correct me if I’m wrong, James – James seems to be testing out the waters of prophecy, testing out the possibility of real Church unity, which would proceed from an *Encounter *with the Truth. That’s what “the voice of a mysterious stranger as merely a whisper in a crowd of loud voices” is. We are put in the position of discerning if James’ message is from God. If his message was from God, that would not make him perfect, nor would it mean that we should take every word he says as law. It would simply mean that we ought to be listening.
So one question: will Christian unity involve compromise? Obvious answer: yes! What kind of compromise? I don’t know. I agree with James that the Church must have the humility to follow where Christ leads, even if it feels like unfamiliar territory.
A couple things are Scripturally clear here: 1) You don’t reject a prophet because he makes you feel uncomfortable. 2) There are ways to discern the truth of a prophecy - “by their fruits ye shall know them” (this is just one of many Scriptural pieces of advice on the matter).
Although I wholeheartedly love the Church, we must remember that the Church is defined by the love of God. We must love God and His calling more than we love the loving guidelines of His Church. And yet, we must submit ourselves to the Church’s guidelines, even if we find flaws in it. If the eyes of the Church are – collectively – on Jesus, then He will accomplish His will in us.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
Be careful with that one. It is easy to misunderstand and not even recognize “fruit”.
Well Prodigal_Son, you impress me again each day.
I don’t know what position you hold in the Church, if any, but I can see no doubt that She would do Herself favor by upping the db of your whisper.
You look past the cloud and such is so very the need in today’s climate. And even better, you seek the possibility of truth over merely the possibility of deception.
When one chooses to close his eyes from all deception then so too shall he see no truth, but only clouds and reflections from the vain brilliance of his own mind and heart. If one already knows of all truth, what need has he for eyes. If one already has his heart’s greatest joy, then what need of he for anything more than what he already covets?
Surely anyone knows that there are genes of the Woman’s DNA that must be maintained even as those of the Husband’s make charge. But for that most perfect Son to be conceived also there must be those of the Woman that must NOT be strongly held and give way to a combination anew.
I know of those of the Son, I’m curious of those of the Mother. And thus, I too seek past the clouds to somewhat ignore the deceptions and discern even hidden truth beyond eyes and ears.
I seek what held dogma has no tolerance to accept that Son. I do NOT seek that any held dogma of the Church be other than it already is.
F
fhansen
Guest
James, I admit I have no idea at this point where you’re coming from but yes, I contend that truth-truth in terns of information that can answer the “big” questions that weigh on the human heart and that science here in this existence can probably never definitively answer-can be known. And this truth pertains to facts such as: that a creator God-who is love-exists and desires that His creation-us-come to know His Love and love Him as He deserves and love the rest of His creation as well and that this knowledge of and love for Him is eternal life and He established a Church that is prepared to help us along the way to this destiny if we so choose.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
So it’s my second statement you meant. I have no argument. And I know that the few you mentioned certainly can be known merely because I already know (not have “faith in”) those very few.
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, and I did too as a non-Catholic. As an aside, the Catholic definition of the *virtue of faith *is something to the effect of: a supernaturally endowed gift ennabling us to believe in supernatural truths proposed to us by the Church.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
This is the dangerous part.
As I had just posted to Prodigal_Son, “When one chooses to close his eyes from all deception then so too shall he see no truth, but only clouds and reflections from the vain brilliance of his own mind and heart.”
By the Church going to whatever measures it might go to so as to ensure that you see no deception (as truth), then you become blinded to actual truth. This is what causes and is the make of “ego”.
Every cult attempts this same thing and is really what qualifies it as a “cult” more than anything else.
I am not accusing, nor am I worried, that the Church is a cult, but that principles of “over-protecting” members due to the chaos of the real world today, is an issue of paramount concern (to me). And is the issue of “dogma” and its limits.
P
PJM
Guest
I like this guy.
I suspect your choosing the fraility of man over the perfection of God. One can fail, the other not. [Jn. 17:17 [COLOR=“darkred”]"Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth." The Church did "not choose a husband, rather the ‘husband’ choose His Bride, thee Church
**On Matters of Faith and or Morals ONLY, the unerring and direct assistance of the Holy Spirit. John 5: “6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.”
Love and prayers,
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
PJM,
We probably have mixed history and future a bit too much.
But I have to wonder the consequences of a Husband today choosing that the Church be His bride, despite Her choice in the matter.
I know that similar can be done (and has been on occasion), but it gives urge to ponder (and pray)
Obviously the easier would be if She knew what to look for in a Husband (a lecture I used to give to many young women)
We probably have mixed history and future a bit too much.
But I have to wonder the consequences of a Husband today choosing that the Church be His bride, despite Her choice in the matter.
I know that similar can be done (and has been on occasion), but it gives urge to ponder (and pray
)Obviously the easier would be if She knew what to look for in a Husband (a lecture I used to give to many young women)
P
PJM
Guest
I know that similar can be done (and has been on occasion), but it gives urge to ponder (and pray
By Faith we can know,Obviously the easier would be if She knew what to look for in a Husband (a lecture I used to give to many young women)
By Hope we can believe
By Love we are assurred:thumbsup:
And I completely agree with your final statement
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
Used to be a music minister, now I pretty much attempt to keep my two-year-old from banging his head on the pew during mass. But I’ll let the pope know I’ve got your recommendation.I don’t know what position you hold in the Church, if any, but I can see no doubt that She would do Herself favor by upping the db of your whisper.
This is very encouraging to me. I’ve heard a lot of talk of “convergent ecumenism”, but generally this just means Protestants and Catholics cleaning up trash together. OK, great, but what about the center of the issue?
Your use of symbolism – which I must admit somewhat confounds me – has me thinking. It almost seems like the fundamental church divisions could be aspects of a holy “trinity” among believers. The Catholic Church could contain three fundamental giftings, united in one: the loving and purposeful father, the dynamic and evangelical son, and the mysterious and ineffable spirit. These are represented in the Catholic, the Protestant, and the Orthodox – but we are a broken trinity.
Our unity is not to be found in doctrine – at least not first of all. It is to be found in the humility to know one another as lovers of Jesus. Anyone who says he is a Catholic first, and a Christian second, is saying precisely a contradiction.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
I’m not one to tell a newly born King what to do with his disarrayed family (well, maybe a little), but I’m sure doctrine and dogma will all be handled in due time. My concern is merely that he have a good Mother.
J
JackQ
Guest
I haven’t gone through the entire thread, so I hope I’m not repeating what someone else has already said. I’ve read enough, however, to see that you’ve run into somewhat of a buzzsaw. Sorry about that.
Anyway, the answer is that it was characteristic of Jesus to speak in hyperbole, whether that was a cultural characteristic or Jesus’s own. Taken too literally, we’d be plucking out our eyes and chopping off our hands.
Catholicism is not a religion of the book. The Scriptures are a significant part of our tradition, but not the only authoritative source. Moreover it is the Church that authoritatively interprets the Scriptures, just in case someone suggests that we should indeed pluck out our eyes–or hate our families.
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